Pale ales and alcohol content

[Halgarmeister]

I'm new to brewing and have a successful recipe. My question is this, what's the easiest way to increase the alcohol content of my brew? The pub I frequent has this exact brew and thier AC is 5.0 to 5.1%, my batches are consistent at 3.0 to 3.5% and I'd like to get it up a little higher without changing the flavor of the beer. Following is the recipe:

6 lbs pale malt extract (syrup )
1/2 lb wheat grain
1/2 lb vienna malt grain
1/2 oz Hallertaur hop pellets (60 min boil )
1 oz Tettanger hop pellets (30 min boil )
1 oz Saaz hop pellets (5 min boil )
Irish moss (5 min boil )
Doric yeast (dry packet )

Malt extract is added to 2 gallons of water and heated to boil as grains are steeped for 30 minutes in 2 quarts of water, then added to boil. Hops are added in succession until done, chilled immediately and added to carboy with water to total 5 gallons. yeast is rehydrated 15 minutes before pitching.

Starting gravity is 1.050, ending is 1.030
PA starting 6.5%, finish PA 3.5%

I get good yeast activity, ferment for 10 days before priming and bottling to 1/2 gallon jugs. Beer is bottle conditioned for 7+ days before chilling/serving. Flavor is right where I want it, as is the hop/ibu level.


I've just purchased ingredients for my next batch and was going to increase the grains by 1/4 lb or so. My supplier recommended using White Labs liquid yeast. The supplier was saying that dry yeast has a low alcohol range where liquid yeasts are considerably higher.

Thanks in advance for the help, everyone.

[grainbrew]

Your yeast is pooping out WAY too soon. Your final gravity should generally be between 1.012 and 1.014 for pale ales (this can vary depending on how sweet you want the beer).

Try using liquid yeast and making a starter. Starters can be made easily without purchasing any new equipment. What temps are you fermenting your beer?

1.030 is VERY high terminal gravity. Does your beer taste sweet? Definitely sounds like a fermentation problem.

J

[mookow]

For some reason, your yeast is not getting the job done. I know some dry yeast strains can tolerate pretty high alcohol, and I dont know of any yeast strain that stops at 3% due to alcohol. However, I would recommend changing your yeast. Either go liquid, or get a different strain of dry yeast (I've had good results with Danstar's Nottingham).

Another potential problem area may be that your wort isnt providing your yeast with the necessary nutrients and dissolved oxygen. Try adding some yeast nutrient and making sure they get more oxygen to help fermentation. There is a big problem somewhere if you are getting only 40% apparent attenuation.

As a side note, I dont know for sure but I think wheat and vienna are supposed to be mashed, not steeped.

[BrewDog]

Welcome to the site-

I'm thinking this is an unconverted starch issue.
Vienna malt is capable of converting itself, but can't convert the wheat, as it lacks the amylase enzymes to do the extra work.

This turns it into a mini-mash, not a steep.
Add a 1 lb of 6 row pale malt, use about 2 1/2 quarts of water in your mash and you should be good to go.
Mash it at 153F or so (be sure use a thermometer and adjust the temp or you might be outside conversion ranges). After a half hour, pull a small sample (like a tablespoon) of the wort into a clean ceramic dish, and add a drop of regular old iodine (like from the pharmacy) and observe. If the starches have converted, there will be no color change. If the starches haven't converted yet, give it more time. When there is no color change, you can proceed as usual. Be sure to throw that sample away.

This will add the necessary enzymes AND fermentables, so you win both ways.

Let us know how this comes out.

[Halgarmeister]

Originally posted by grainbrew
Your yeast is pooping out WAY too soon. Your final gravity should generally be between 1.012 and 1.014 for pale ales (this can vary depending on how sweet you want the beer).

Try using liquid yeast and making a starter. Starters can be made easily without purchasing any new equipment. What temps are you fermenting your beer?

1.030 is VERY high terminal gravity. Does your beer taste sweet? Definitely sounds like a fermentation problem.

J

My last batch was pretty sweet, sweeter than I think it should have been, though not unpleasant. IIRC, my FG's have never been below 1.030, all batches used Doric dry yeast, I don't know what strain. The batch I intend to do on Friday or Saturday will use liquid pale ale yeast.





Originally posted by mookow
For some reason, your yeast is not getting the job done. I know some dry yeast strains can tolerate pretty high alcohol, and I dont know of any yeast strain that stops at 3% due to alcohol. However, I would recommend changing your yeast. Either go liquid, or get a different strain of dry yeast (I've had good results with Danstar's Nottingham).

Another potential problem area may be that your wort isnt providing your yeast with the necessary nutrients and dissolved oxygen. Try adding some yeast nutrient and making sure they get more oxygen to help fermentation. There is a big problem somewhere if you are getting only 40% apparent attenuation.

As a side note, I dont know for sure but I think wheat and vienna are supposed to be mashed, not steeped.

What is "yeast nutrient" and how do I go about getting it? I plan to aerate the next batch of wort with oxygen and a bubbler prior to pitching, and using liquid pale ale yeast.

Again, I'm definitely a neophyte to brewing and it's terminology. What is the difference between mashing and steeping? IIRC, my steeping temp was too high with this last batch, something I intend to correct with the next. I've kept fairly close records of each batch as I brew it and have a spreadsheet of sorts that I've entered in the info. I'm tracking the hop content and total IBU, and this last time included the gravity/alcohol readings which will be in all data from now on. I'm even writing down the exact method and steps to follow as I brew so that future batches will duplicate or be modified accordingly. Back to the steeping for a moment. The first two batches I attempted were "kits" made up by the supplier. All ingredients were included with an instruction sheet. It is this instruction sheet that I follow. As per this instruction sheet, the grain packs are steeped for the alloted time. When I got my hands on the recipe for the brew I like at the pub, I continue to steep the grains.


Originally posted by BrewDog
Welcome to the site-

I'm thinking this is an unconverted starch issue.
Vienna malt is capable of converting itself, but can't convert the wheat, as it lacks the amylase enzymes to do the extra work.

This turns it into a mini-mash, not a steep.
Add a 1 lb of 6 row pale malt, use about 2 1/2 quarts of water in your mash and you should be good to go.
Mash it at 153F or so (be sure use a thermometer and adjust the temp or you might be outside conversion ranges). After a half hour, pull a small sample (like a tablespoon) of the wort into a clean ceramic dish, and add a drop of regular old iodine (like from the pharmacy) and observe. If the starches have converted, there will be no color change. If the starches haven't converted yet, give it more time. When there is no color change, you can proceed as usual. Be sure to throw that sample away.

This will add the necessary enzymes AND fermentables, so you win both ways.

Let us know how this comes out.

I think you're on the right track as well. I'll pick up some iodine and do the test. From my reading of this site and Charlie Papazian's book, I've deduced that part of my low alcohol problem is low fermentables, which is why I was going to increase each grain by a 1/4 lb or so. when I purchased my materials two days ago, I chatted with the supplier about this same low alcohol issue and his contention was more a yeast problem, with dry yeast having lower alcohol tolerances and liquid yeasts having higher and higher tolerances, depending on the strain used.

I still don't really know what I'm watching for with the gravity of the brew. According to grainbrew I should be finishing out at 1.012 to 1.014. Until now I've been going 10 to 14 days as per the kit instructions and Papazian's general guide, or until I just can't take the thirst anymore and have to get it conditioning and ready to drink! LOL (patience is DEFINITELY a learned behavior to the novice brewer!!! LOL ). Am I correct with the assumption that once the gravity stops falling that the fermentation is done, regardless of the reading?

Thank you so much, everyone, for your tips and hints, keep them coming if you got them. I'll definitely be updating this thread as I brew, test, and ultimately sample my subsequent batches. The next batch will be happening within two days, and once that is bottled I will probably start another.

[grainbrew]

If gravity stops falling at 1.030, your yeast is dead or you have a lot of unfermentable sugars in your wort. If you're mashing or steeping your grains too high - 156F and above - you might not be getting enough fermentables from the steep. A good thermometer should always be nearby.

My last batch stopped at 1.015. I used a mid range attenuating liquid yeast. Fermentation is 99% of brewing. I had to learn the hard way.

J

[Halgarmeister]

I don't remember the exact temp of steeping during the last batch, but it was definitely above 155. I misread what I was supposed to be steeping at and didn't catch it until I was done. I will be much more wary of my steeping temps this time.

You mentioned earlier about making starter. How do you do that? What is used, etc?

[BrewDog]

From Palmer's online book (http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter13-2.html)

Steeping differs from mashing in that there is no enzyme activity taking place to convert grain or adjunct starches to sugars. Steeping specialty grains is entirely a leaching and dissolution process of sugars into the wort. If grain with enzyme diastatic potential is steeped, that is mashing. See the following chapters for more detail on that process.

Essentially, they are very similar, but it is the enzyme action that is the key difference. Additionally, to control mashing, you really have to be much more attentive to water temperature, volume, and pH. When you steep, these 3 factors don't usually play a major factor in the results (unless you go way outside the reasonable norms). When you mash, they do.

The generally accepted rule is to mash using about 1.25 quarts of water per lb of grain. 152F or 153F is a reasonable mid point that will provide a good mix of fermentables and dextrins (for mouth feel). For a mini-mash, don't worry too much about pH unless your water is so calcified that your sink always looks like hell (you will know what I mean if this were the case). If that is the case, just mix 1/2 and 1/2 with bottled distilled water.
pH strips are pretty cheap if you HAVE to be sure, then you could adjust your water using gypsum and/or calcium carbonate to hit 5.2. In most cases this is unnecessary.

HTH-

[grainbrew]

Definitely sounds like a yeast problem. Do you use the same yeast for every batch? Is so, it might be your procedures or lack of procedures that is the problem.

What temperature are you fermenting at? I usually aim for 65F to 68F. I get vigorous fermentation. I use Wyeast liquid yeast smack packs and make starters for bigger beers.

Starters aside, your yeast should ferment lower than 1.030 provided with the right conditions. Do you aerate your wort prior to pitching? what is your pitching temp?

J

[Halgarmeister]

Originally posted by BrewDog
The generally accepted rule is to mash using about 1.25 quarts of water per lb of grain. 152F or 153F is a reasonable mid point that will provide a good mix of fermentables and dextrins (for mouth feel). For a mini-mash, don't worry too much about pH...

HTH-

What is the water to grain ratio for steeping? The kit instructions say to steep in the brewing water. My girlfriends brother, who is a brewer and judge, recommends 2 quarts of water. (btw, the GF's brother is hard to get a hold of and has yet to answer these same questions for going on 2 months now. Doesn't even return "hello/thank you" notes ). I'm not concerned about Ph because I buy water that is filtered, reverse osmosis, aerated, and distilled (not necessarily in that order... wink wink ).

Originally posted by grainbrew
Definitely sounds like a yeast problem. Do you use the same yeast for every batch? Is so, it might be your procedures or lack of procedures that is the problem.

What temperature are you fermenting at? I usually aim for 65F to 68F. I get vigorous fermentation. I use Wyeast liquid yeast smack packs and make starters for bigger beers.

Starters aside, your yeast should ferment lower than 1.030 provided with the right conditions. Do you aerate your wort prior to pitching? what is your pitching temp?

J

Yes, the same yeast has been used in every batch. It is reconstituted for 15 minutes prior to pitching and the wort is at or near 80-85 degrees when pitched, optimum according to packet. I have been aerating by shaking the carboy vigarously several times for the first few hours. The next batch will be aerated by oxygen tank and bubbler. What is a general aeration guideline for this? I'm thinking 15 minutes for a 5 gallon batch. Fermentation occurs at room temp which fluctuates between 50 and 70 degrees, depending on time of day and whether the heat is on or not. I've started wrapping the carboy in several dark blankets to keep light out of it, which should also help it maintain a more even temp.

[Halgarmeister]

How are my responses going for you guys? I'm used to quoting from other forums, though the parameters of this forum are a bit different and may cause more confusion. I will respond to each quote individually if that is easier for all.

Again, I really appreciate all this help. When I figure out a way to email brew samples, EVERYONE is getting one! LOL wink wink (btw, smilies aren't working for me at the moment. I'll try to figure out why soon. )

[BrewDog]

2 qts/lb is good for a steep.

Do you know the brand name of the liquid malt extract?

I went back and double checked the amylase content of Vienna malt from several manufacturers. Now I'm not as sure about this theory, as Palmer's book contradicts the malt data sheets put out by the manufacturers.

In Palmer's book here (http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-1.html) his entries for Vienna and Munich malt state:

Munich Malt 10 L This malt has an amber color and gives a very malty flavor. This malt has enough diastatic power to convert itself but is usually used in conjunction with a base malt for mashing. This malt is used for Oktoberfest-type beers and many others, including pale ales.

Vienna Malt 4 L This malt is lighter and sweeter than Munich malt and is a principal ingredient of Bock beers. Retains enough enzymatic power to convert itself but is often used with a base malt in the mash.


However, the Briess web site entry here (http://www.briess.com/pdf/Malthouse%20Ingredients%20for%20Brewing/Vienna%20Malt%20WK/PIS%203-740%20Vienna%20Malt%20WK.pdf) shows the diastatic power entry as 130 Lintner, which means it has the capacity to convert 130% of its weight (ie, it can convert itself plus an additional 30% of its weight in another grain that doesn't have enzymes).

Furthermore, the entry for Briess Wheat Malt here (http://www.briess.com/pdf/Malthouse%20Ingredients%20for%20Brewing/White%20Wheat%20Malt%20WK/PIS%20BREW%20White%20Wheat%20Malt%20WK.pdf) shows a 145 Lintner level. That means that I was dead wrong earlier -- they both can convert themselves and then some.


The only other thing I can think of is if this is flaked or torrified wheat (which I am positive that they can't convert themselves), in which case only a portion of it is converted by the Vienna. What's left starch wise is still not enough to cause a 15 point difference in final gravity.

Do the iodine test like I said in the earlier post, but I think I have convinced myself that grainbrew is right and it's gotta be the yeast, not the enzymes.

[Grog]

BrewDog - Breiss' Vienna Malt is made from 6 row barley, which is why it has such a high enzyme level.

Halgarmeister - How many batches of this beer have you made with this high terminal gravity result? What were some of the other OG/TG's of the other batches?

[grainbrew]

You don't "need" to make a starter and/or oxygenate your wort. Your yeast should be attenuating down to 1.014 (approx.) regardless. Starters and oxygen will improve fermentation conditions, but the yeast should get the job done without it. I don't make a starter for every batch and I don't oxygenate with pure O2. My fermentations are vigorous and finish the job.

If you are using pure oxygen, 30 seconds to a minute should be enough for a 5 to 6 gallon batch. Only open your oxygen a little bit. You just want the surface of the wort to move a little bit. The oxygen needs to be absorbed by the wort. Excessive foaming won't accomplish that effectively.

80F to 85F seems a bit high for pitching temp. I usually pitch @ 70F. Then again, I use liquid yeast and that's what it recommends. High temperatures can create a lot of off flavors early-on.

Since I've started paying more attention to the fermentation side of my beer, they've improved considerably.

Cheers!

J

[Halgarmeister]

Brewdog - There are no brands listed on either the malts or the extract. The supplier purchases in bulk, then repackages himself. I could probably get that info from him, though he's not a real friendly or forthcomming kind of guy. The grains themselves are still in the hulls and are just cracked/smashed a little (refering to your "flaked or torrified" comment ).

Grog, though I've noted the gravity of each batch, it was prior to the spreadsheet I now use and I no longer have that record. Memory tells me that all have been in the 1.030 area at finish, certainly the batches that count (the two attempts at the pub pale I've copied ).

Grainbrew, the initial fermentation is always vigorous, a 2" head is produced on the surface of the wort and the airgap is blowing bubbles at a pretty good clip. I realize that this initial action doesn't mean that the yeast is going at it's full potential, however. The dry yeast says to rehydrate at 75-85 degrees and pitch when wort is 75-80 degrees. The liquid yeast says to pitch at 70-75 degrees. With the dry yeast, I'm wondering if the rehydration water isn't at the correct temp and the pitch may be a tad high. I have to admit that I'm not overly careful with the process (yet ) and probably rush things at certain points.

[Halgarmeister]

WOOHOO!! Today was Brew Day!!!

Got off to a rocky start, but I think everything finished out fine. I was more careful of my steeping temp, though I wasn't able to keep it right on 155, it fluctuated between 150 + or - to 160 + or - a little bit. I was trying to multi-task, which took my attention from the pot for too long of periods.

I decided to only change ONE thing at a time with the brew until I figure out the problem with the alcohol content. This effort, besides being more wary of the steeping temp, I used liquid yeast. All other ingredients and amounts of those ingredients stayed the same. The original recipe called for Vienna malt grains, until this last trip, the supplier didn't have any in stock. I bought some for a future batch, but stuck with the Munich malt grain that has been used in the other batches.

I was also careful to get the pitching temp of the wort below 80 degrees. The range on the vial of yeast recommended 70 - 75 degrees, I got it down to 77 or 78 degrees. The wort was aerated with a spoon for several minutes before the pitch. The Specific gravity was 1.038, potential Alcohol was 5%. The last batch was 1.050 and 6.5%, so we'll see what happens.


It's hard to do an iodine test on the grain tea without iodine, so that will be a test I do with the next batch. That about sums up the days events. I'll let this ferment a minimum of 7 to 10 days before doing another gravity reading. According to the "instructions" it should finish out around 1.010 to 1.014. How often do you guys recommend checking the gravity? And am I correct in the assumption that when the gravity levels out that the fermentation is done, regardless of gravity reading?

[Grog]

Originally posted by Halgarmeister
The Specific gravity was 1.038, potential Alcohol was 5%. The last batch was 1.050 and 6.5%, so we'll see what happens.


It's hard to do an iodine test on the grain tea without iodine, so that will be a test I do with the next batch. That about sums up the days events. I'll let this ferment a minimum of 7 to 10 days before doing another gravity reading. According to the "instructions" it should finish out around 1.010 to 1.014. How often do you guys recommend checking the gravity? And am I correct in the assumption that when the gravity levels out that the fermentation is done, regardless of gravity reading?

According to Promash, even if the 1.038 fermented out to zero, you would barely hit 5% ABV. An OG of 1.050 with a TG of 1.014 would be almost 5%.

My concern is that if you used the exact same ingredients for the exact same volume and you arrived at less than 80% of the original gravity( 38/50=0.76), something is definitely not right.

The grains account for less than 6% of your fermentables (@ 50% efficiency, which is generous) so even if you had ZERO conversion, you should have still arrived at a higher OG (36pt X 6# = 216 pt/5gal = 1.043).

Either the wort was not mixed well enough and the OG reading wasn't correct, or your LHBS dude isn't really paying close attention when he is measuring your extract.

Insofar as the iodine test is concerned, I would not bother until I was using much more grain as the total % of fermentables.

I hope this all made sense, and if anyone has a problem with the math, please feel free to correct me, it has been an awful long day and an awful day to boot.

G

[toneyc]

Yep, I am in complete agreement. An iodine test is almost pointless in your case. And 1.038-1.010=.028, *131=3.67%. Like Grog said, you either aren't getting your wort mixed well enough with your top up water, or something is up with your homebrew store. Promash says you should get about 1.047 out of 6# of LME, .5# wheat malt, and .5# vienna malt. Even without the grains, you should get 1.042. So even if you got 1.047, and it got down to 1.010, you're still only going to get 4.8% All-in-all, this sounds like a good recipe to me, but if you want more alcohol, add another pound of LME or a pound of honey if you want to keep it light.

:)
Toney.

[Halgarmeister]

I too am a bit concerned with the ingredients, though still being such a novice I'm probably more to blame for the results. The good news is that 4 hours after corking the carboy, fermentation activity was starting to show. This morning, the wort is boiling with activity. (I know, I know, the novice is easily excited! LOL )

I honestly couldn't remember if I had used the 6 pound bag or 7 pound bag of LME for the last batch, this time I use the 6 pound bag. When I was doing the brew, I had a sense that I should have gotten the 7 pounder.

The SG was taken after aerating the wort and top water together for a few minutes. As I mentioned in my last post, the brew got off to a rocky start, and that is most likely part of the low SG at this point. One of the issues was that I had a tad too much water in the pot and after adding the LME, there wasn't enough room for the grain tea. About a quart of the water/LME solution had to be removed to allow the addition of the tea. There's strike one. When steeping the tea, I had trouble controlling the temp, though was able to keep it between 145 and 160ish. The finished tea was pretty milky in color, more white/milky than I remember other batches being. I don't know if that was a good or bad thing.

A taste of the wort shows promise for the finished brew, though obviously, the alcohol will remain low in this batch as well. This wort has a lighter flavor than the last one did as well, and at the moment, that is pointing me in the direction of the amount of LME in the batch. I'll need to get more hops for the next brew, so I'll probably pick up another bag of LME and add at least one pound if not two.
The flavor of the last brew was right in line with the pub brew I strive to emulate, so my base recipe is pretty darned close.

As soon as this brew is racked I'll be doing another batch. Still searching for that illusive alcohol content! LOL

[Halgarmeister]

So that I don't keep annoying you guys with "newbie" questions, does anyone know of online sources that discuss ratios of LME/grain/etc and alcohol content? I'm also looking for an ingredient guide that basically lists all the different kinds of hops, grains, and extracts and the flavors and characteristics that each impart to the brew.

Thanks everyone

[HogieWan]

howtobrew.com

[Halgarmeister]

The liquid yeast definitely helped! After two days, the airstop was blown out of the top of the carboy! Lost about 4 to 5 quarts of brew which sucks!

Hogiewan, thanks for the link. I've not had time to go through the site yet, but will be soon.

[Halgarmeister]

I've decided to dump this current batch and rebrew. With the many problems from starting point to current moment, I doubt that it's going to amount to much of a beer anyway.

Gotta go back to the supplier for more yeast, hops and LME. I plan to use a minimum of 7 pounds of LME in the next batch, and am leaning to 7-1/2 to 8 pounds. Should I also increase the grain content by a 1/4 pound to balance the additional LME in the brew? I will also be using the liquid yeast again, as it certainly created a lot more action than the dry did.

What sized carboys are you guys using? I've got a 5 gallon one, and with 5 gallons of brew in it, there's just not much room for head expansion, which is why I think it blew the airstop out.

[toneyc]

Yep, if you're going to use a carboy for a primary, it needs to be the 6.5 gallon size. The grain thing is a matter of taste, how do you like it. I would probably leave it as-is this time. One of my favorite recipes is just 7 pounds of extract and two ounces of hops, no grains.

:)
Toney.

[mookow]

Originally posted by Halgarmeister
I've decided to dump this current batch and rebrew. With the many problems from starting point to current moment, I doubt that it's going to amount to much of a beer anyway.

Gotta go back to the supplier for more yeast, hops and LME. I plan to use a minimum of 7 pounds of LME in the next batch, and am leaning to 7-1/2 to 8 pounds. Should I also increase the grain content by a 1/4 pound to balance the additional LME in the brew? I will also be using the liquid yeast again, as it certainly created a lot more action than the dry did.

What sized carboys are you guys using? I've got a 5 gallon one, and with 5 gallons of brew in it, there's just not much room for head expansion, which is why I think it blew the airstop out.

Most people using carboys use the 6.5 gallon carboys as their primary fermenters. Personally, if I were you, I'd invest in one (~$20). However, you I think you could do either of the following:
-Use 6# of extract, a little less hops, and only make a 4 gallon batch, which allows for a gallon's worth of headspace in your fermenter.
-Use the 7.5-8# you are planning on, hop it the same, and initially fill it to the 3.5-4 gallon mark. When you are ready to bottle, boil your priming sugar in enough water to make your total 5 gallons.

I know some of the big breweries fermenter their beers at higher gravities and water it down in order to effectively increase their fermentation capacity.

[Halgarmeister]

Thanks Toney, I plan on getting the 6 gallon carboy. I thought that's what I had until this last batch when I made certain that the final quantity of brew was 5 gallons.

Mookow - I recently read that somewhere, probably here. IIRC the pro/con of doing it was yes it increases batch size without larger fermentors, but the devout brew guys feels it also waters down the taste. Any thoughts on this?

[toneyc]

I did this with my last batch, a double chocolate stout. Somehow, I had ended up with 4 gallons of 1.060 wort. I calculated that I just needed to add a gallon of water to get it to the 1.050 that I wanted, so I decided that I would add it at the end, it would give me something to dissolve my cocoa powder in. So along came kegging day and I boiled up a gallon of water for 15-20 minutes, added my cocoa powder, and cooled to about 80 of so. I poured it all into my keg with my green beer and put it into the fridge under 12-14 psi for several weeks. I tasted it, it was thin and watery. I figured that maybe it didn't mix well when I kegged it, so I shook the keg very well and tried it again in a couple more weeks. Still thin and watery with a head like 7-up, big bubbles that went away fast. I haven't thrown it out yet, still hoping it magically transforms into the silky double chocolate stout that it was meant to be.

:(
Toney.

[Halgarmeister]

Just returned from the brew supply with my new 7 gallon carboy and materials for another batch. I asked the proprieter the same question about adding water at time of rack and he's of the same opinion, that it makes for a watery beer, not a good beer.

So, the next batch will be brewed as usual, in a 2-1/2 gallon pot, water added to fermentor to equal 5 gallons. I'll be adding one additional pound of LME without changing anything else, and I'll also do the iodine test. I realize that grain utilization plays a small part in the total fermentables, I'm just curious how my tea has been turning out.

And since it's taken me so long to get new materials and the bigger carboy, I'm going to let the last batch finish it's thing. I was watching the airstop yesterday (day 5 ) and it's still blowing good sized bubbles about every 5 to 10 seconds. I'm certain the alcohol will be almost non-existent, I'm just curious how the flavor turns out.

[Halgarmeister]

Brewing a new batch today. Was able to keep the steeping temp steady this time, though it did start out a bit high. Did the iodine test with "white iodine" and everything stayed clear, I am curious if the purple iodine should have been used, however.

The brew went off without a hitch, with the slight exception that the airstop cork slipped all the way down into the 7 gallon carboy... After fishing the darned thing back out, it seems that neither the neck of the carboy nor the cork are compatible with each other. Luckily I bought a rubber cap to keep the critters out of the carboy when in storage. The rubber cap has an indentation made for the airstop, so all I had to do was cut some sipes into it and it works fine.

The LME was upped to 7 pounds, all other ingredients stayed the same. The OG is 1.050 and PA is 6.5% This is the same as the last successful batch, difference being the additional LME and the liquid yeast. Hopefully this will ferment down into the teens, the way it's supposed to.

Just out of curiosity, when do you guys take gravity readings? Do you wait a certain number of days or watch the airstop, or what? The last FUBAR'd batch is still blowing, though you gotta watch close for the inner thimble of the stopper to move, and there is no bubble associated with it's movement, it just moves a little. Today is day eight in the fermentation.

[toneyc]

I take a gravity reading when it goes into the carboy, transfer to secondary seven days later, then look at the beer two weeks after that. If it looks nice, I might take another reading and transfer to keg, but I'll usually let it sit for another week or two and then keg it, taking a reading at that time. Half the time, I forget to take the reading at all.

:)
Toney.

[Halgarmeister]

Thanks Toney. Today is day 10 on the boo-boo'd batch, so I'll probably check it and see how it's doing.

[Harvest]

This may seem like a simple question, but are you doing the temp. conversion when you take your OG reading? If youre at almost 80 degrees, your reading is going to be quite lower than the actual gravity because your hydrometer is calibrated to take a reading at 60 degrees. The warmer the liquid, the less resistance, and hence a reading of a lower gravity than the reality. Not a huge deal on its own, but when the wort cools, and you take a TG reading, it is going to be HIGHER due to the density of the liquid. These two things together, a low OG reading and a high TG reading are going to give you numbers WAY out of whack.

If I am on to something, check out this chart (http://brewery.org/brewery/library/HydromCorr0992.html) for the conversion numbers.

Actually, this chart is easier to read. Just find your temp and add the appropriate number to your OG and TG.


Table 18 - Hydrometer Temperature Corrections
Delta G T °F
-0.0007 32
-0.0008 33.8
-0.0008 35.6
-0.0009 37.4
-0.0009 39.2
-0.0009 41
-0.0008 42.8
-0.0008 44.6
-0.0007 46.4
-0.0007 48.2
-0.0006 50
-0.0005 51.8
-0.0004 53.6
-0.0003 55.4
-0.0001 57.2
0 59
0.0002 60.8
0.0003 62.6
0.0005 64.4
0.0007 66.2
0.0009 68
0.0011 69.8
0.0013 71.6
0.0016 73.4
0.0018 75.2
0.0021 77
0.0023 78.8
0.0026 80.6
0.0029 82.4
0.0032 84.2
0.0035 86
0.0038 87.8
0.0041 89.6
0.0044 91.4
0.0047 93.2
0.0051 95
0.0054 96.8
0.0058 98.6
0.0061 100.4
0.0065 102.2
0.0069 104
0.0073 105.8
0.0077 107.6
0.0081 109.4
0.0085 111.2
0.0089 113
0.0093 114.8
0.0097 116.6
0.0102 118.4
0.0106 120.2

[Halgarmeister]

No, I did not make any adjustments for temperature, I wasn't aware of that. Hmmm.

I checked the two carboys and the booboo'd batch is still putting out a fair amount of bubbles in the airstop, today makes 14 days, so I'll probably pop the cork and check the gravity. The newer batch is just now a week old and still pretty active, though it was never as active as the booboo'd batch, which is a bit of a surprise, since it has more LME in it. I'm wondering if the added head room in the carboy has anything to do with that.

[Halgarmeister]

I racked the batch that blew today. FG was 1.012, and alcohol finished at 3%. Gave it a taste and it isn't bad. I never changed it out of the primary fermenter and total fermentation time was 16 days. I'm not certain how long I'll leave the other batch going. According to instructions, ales go 10 to 14 days before racking, since the batch I racked today still seemed to be active, I let it go a little longer. The batch still going doesn't seem to have much activity and it's now at day 9.

As per Harvest's comment about temp, I took a temp reading of the gravity sample and it was at 62 degrees, according to the adjustment scale, the original gravity taken at 80 degrees would only adjust +0.0026 That doesn't seem like much to be worrying about in an ale.

[Halgarmeister]

I went back and made the O.G. temp adjustment to the last two batches. As I suspected, 0.0026 isn't enough to make a noticeable change in the potential alcohol level. I will make this adjustment to all future readings anyway. I'm also changing the data sheet that I'm keeping on each batch to include more info such as pitching temp, fermentation temp, and things of that nature. This Saturday (3-18-06 ) will be one week on the conditioning, and a bottle or two will be put in the fridge tonight! :)

Another thread that was started recently on aging beer, brings me to another question. For those of you that still bottle and have limited refridgeration space, do you notice a difference between your brew when it's conditioned for the "recommended" time and that which is aged longer than the "recommended" time? In my recollection, there wasn't any (remember, I brew a light ale ).

[Harvest]

There will often be a noticable difference when aged. Flavors definitely mellow over time. I dont bottle anymore, but if a beer didn't taste right just after carbonating, I would simply let it sit in the fridge for a month or 2. The fridge space certainly is an issue (especially if you have a significant other that wants to put useless things like vegetables and leftovers in the beer cooler).

Point being, I think you should age your beer in the fridge, but if you can't then just drink it and enjoy it anyway.

[Halgarmeister]

Thanks Harvest. Yes, I do have to share the fridge with food items. I've been trying to tell the sister and girlfriend that we don't need all this darned food, we've got BEER!!! But they won't listen... LOL :)

I sampled my brew today. It is EXTREMELY light, but very good flavor (this is the batch I had all the troubles with on 2-22-06 ). Very low carbonation, it's got a good feel in the mouth, just not the fizzy effervescence as usual. Color is very light gold, along the lines of , dare I say, MGD or Bud. It's actually much better than I had expected it to be, so while the batch was a bust, it's not a total loss. Tomorrow is 16 days on the last batch, so I'll be priming and racking it tomorrow now too. That's 3 gallons already conditioned and drinkable with another 4 to 4-1/2 gallons by this time next week. Still have about a gallon and a half left of the pub brew too, I guess that means I have my work cut out for me this week! LOL

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by Halgarmeister

One of the issues was that I had a tad too much water in the pot and after adding the LME, there wasn't enough room for the grain tea. About a quart of the water/LME solution had to be removed to allow the addition of the tea.


Herr Halgarmeister,

When you removed this quart of wort, you took out some of the sugars that those yeasties would have loved to snack on. Next time you encounter this problem, turn up the heat and let a good boil remove the water in the form of vapor and leave the sugars behind. You'll get the higher OG that you're looking for. A good boil wil also help coagulate you hot break, which will give you clearer beer. The only downside is you will get a little more melanoidin reaction, which will darken the brew a little.

[jcabo]

Sorry to barge in...-early on, Halgarmeister, you mentioned the water you were using and you were not concerned about pH....

Should we be?

The water I use is a comercial spring water (Abita Springs spring water) with a pH of of 8.2

The beer I am trying to "copy" Hoegaarden (Belgium) uses water, pH 8.31 I'm told.

1. Will an acid rest of 104 degrees in the mashing process fix the pH?

2. What do the Germans do with the pH "problem" with their reinsgebot purety law?

------I understand my water is Calcium deficient; yet, I've heard/read the calcium content is very important.

I'm not worried about using an additive....just which one when?!

I've been told by users on another sites forum that I shouldn't worry about pH...especially since it is my first all grain :(

I am delaying the start of this batch till I've got what I think is the perfect recipe...again, sorry about barging your thread Halgarmeister but I thought you'd be interested....

[Bilbo Beergins]

Originally posted by Halgarmeister
The wort was aerated with a spoon for several minutes before the pitch.

I sterilize two buckets, pour back and forth between them and my kettle, to well aerate the now cooled wort. Haven't contaminated any batches this way, and have well-aerated wort.

[Halgarmeister]

I don't know how these posts got by me... Guess I'm getting old... :D

Originally posted by Mill Rat
Herr Halgarmeister,

When you removed this quart of wort, you took out some of the sugars that those yeasties would have loved to snack on.

Yeah, I know, I wasn't thinking to save the excess and add it back to the pot when it had boiled off enough to do so. The original problem was that the water wasn't excessivly warm when I combined it with the LME which brought the level right up to the rim of the pot. Since all things expand when they get hot (including boiling water ), it was necessary to remove a portion to start the boiling process. It wasn't until AFTER I saw the boil down that I thought to save the, now down the drain, excess to add back to the pot. It was one of these "DUH!!" moments. On that batch, the LME started to scorch to the bottom of the pan, which meant that I had to swap boiling pots in mid process... Oh well, botched or not, it was still quite tasty.

Originally posted by jcabo
Sorry to barge in...-early on, Halgarmeister, you mentioned the water you were using and you were not concerned about pH....

Should we be?

For my purposes, I'm not concerned about the Ph or hardness. The water I use is very clean and pure and has no odors or flavors typical of hard water. I cannot answer your Ph or hardness questions, as I'm a new brewer myself. If it were me, I would more concern myself with a good recipe, then modify it a little to lean more towards the brew you are trying to clone, than exactly replicating the water. In all honesty, if the beer is good, it's good, and without having the "original" right next to yours, you'll probably never know the difference.

You might want to post your own topic so that the other, more knowledgeable, brewers here can see it and respond directly. Your question here will easily be lost and hard to find later. It will also make great reference to others with similar questions.

Originally posted by Bilbo Beergins
I sterilize two buckets, pour back and forth between them and my kettle, to well aerate the now cooled wort. Haven't contaminated any batches this way, and have well-aerated wort.

This is just a messy process, to pour from one container to another. For me it's just easier to "whip" it with a spoon in the bucket before pitching and transfering to the fermenter. Speaking of which, I've got to find some time this weekend and brew up a new batch. I'm out, and that's just WRONG!!! LOL

[Bilbo Beergins]

Originally posted by Halgarmeister
For me it's just easier to "whip" it with a spoon in the bucket before pitching and transfering to the fermenter.

Whip it good!

-Devo-

[I'mRocketMan]

I guess I'm the only one who uses a great big SS whisk to dissolve the DME or LME and to aerate the cooled wort... Absolutely no sharp edges to gouge the plastic frermenter and getting an excellent deep vortex while whipping in the air and then reversing the swirl and frothing the wort that way. Always worked for me and I've brewed plenty of big (>8%abv) beers successfully including an incredible Triple Moon Tripel at 12.6% abv!

Cheers! Rocket

[toneyc]

Nah, I use a whisk, too, but tomorrow, I'm buying an oxygen rig. And a weldless fitting for my kettle. And a Shirron. Yeah.

:D
Toney.

[Teej]

Originally posted by toneyc
And a Shirron. Yeah.


If true, you're gonna love it. I love mine (I think)...my first shirronated batch is about done with Primary. Be a few weeks 'til I taste that yet. :P

[toneyc]

That's what finally tipped my decision, I saw so many glowing reports over the last week or so, I decided to crack the chains on the old wallet open.

:D
Toney.

[I'mRocketMan]

Originally posted by toneyc
Nah, I use a whisk, too, but tomorrow, I'm buying an oxygen rig. And a weldless fitting for my kettle. And a Shirron. Yeah.

:D
Toney.
I just got an O2 rig, too! These last two batches are the first using the O2!!

Cheers! Rocket

[toneyc]

Holy Frijoles!!! I'm in shock. They get you coming and going, don't they??? So I looked all this stuff up online a couple of nights ago, Shirron, $89.99, Weldless bulkhead, $15.99, Oxygenation kit, $39.99. Well, I get to the store, the Shirron is marked $99.99, the Oxy kit is $49.99, two of the fittings I need are sold separately, for $19.99. I got them to give me the $89.99 on the Shirron, but I still ended up spending a lot more, probably $50 more, than I was prepared for. I'm all for supporting your local, but frickin ow! I also find out they're having a 10% off sale this weekend. So is this related to the prices going up 10-20%?? This is a very ugly thought. Tax free internet shopping is starting to look much more attractive. Maybe I should buy that mill and start buying in bulk. Yeah, I'm a little upset.

:eek:
Toney.

[mookow]

Originally posted by toneyc
Holy Frijoles!!! I'm in shock. They get you coming and going, don't they??? So I looked all this stuff up online a couple of nights ago, Shirron, $89.99, Weldless bulkhead, $15.99, Oxygenation kit, $39.99. Well, I get to the store, the Shirron is marked $99.99, the Oxy kit is $49.99, two of the fittings I need are sold separately, for $19.99. I got them to give me the $89.99 on the Shirron, but I still ended up spending a lot more, probably $50 more, than I was prepared for. I'm all for supporting your local, but frickin ow! I also find out they're having a 10% off sale this weekend. So is this related to the prices going up 10-20%?? This is a very ugly thought. Tax free internet shopping is starting to look much more attractive. Maybe I should buy that mill and start buying in bulk. Yeah, I'm a little upset.

:eek:
Toney.

After an experience like that, I think I'd only be patronizing my LHBS when I needed some supplies right now.

[Bilbo Beergins]

Originally posted by I'mRocketMan
I just got an O2 rig, too! These last two batches are the first using the O2!!

I use O2 in my yeast starter, but haven't used it in cooled wort, I just aerate. Have you noticed a difference between aeration and oxygenation of the wort?

[gallowd7]

Originally posted by toneyc
I also find out they're having a 10% off sale this weekend.
I think there is some two week rule about disclosing future sales. Just take your receipt to the store and ask for the discount. If they say no, return everything and buy it again.

[Halgarmeister]

Originally posted by mookow
After an experience like that, I think I'd only be patronizing my LHBS when I needed some supplies right now.

I'm pretty lucky, my LHBS is right about the same pricing as morebeer.com, so I purchase my supplies locally. Otherwise, yeah, internet shopping is usually much better. I'm all for supporting the local shops and economy, but when you can get the same exact product for considerably less, it's kind of a no brainer.

I'm also into R/C's, and of the 5 or 6 shops in this area, there is only ONE that I will do business with, even then it's for "emergency" parts only, otherwise I buy online for about 2/3 of what local pricing is. That's a significant savings when you're dropping $1000+ on a friggin little toy! LOL

[I'mRocketMan]

Originally posted by Bilbo Beergins
I use O2 in my yeast starter, but haven't used it in cooled wort, I just aerate. Have you noticed a difference between aeration and oxygenation of the wort?

I'll let you know! I am about to rack to the secondary today. Lag time was noticably shorter though!

Cheers! Rocket

[Halgarmeister]

Finally got around to brewing up a new batch today. A few minor problems, but overall not too bad. I decided to do a yeast starter and the brew is now happily bubbling away. I finished up at 4pm and by 7pm it was bubbling well. Now the hard part, waiting the 4 weeks for it to be ready to drink!! LOL :D

I still don't think that my gravity or potential alcohol are where they should be, but I did see something on the label of the dextrose that I've not seen before: "2 cups to 5 gallons = +1.5% ABV". I bought a 2 pound bag this time rather than the 3/4cup package. It was my understanding that it didn't take more than 3/4cup to prime 5 gallons. All of my previous batches utilized 3/4cup and were well carbonated.

[Halgarmeister]

Interesting thing, last night, shortly after pitching there was plenty of activity in the fermentor. Now, 24 hours later, there is none, and the brew is a milky, cloudy amber color with no foam (kroutsen? ) on the surface. I'm wondering if the yeast petered out. I used the dry Doric yeast (it's what was on hand ), rehydrated and mixed with 1/2cup LME about 2 to 3 hours before pitching. This "starter" looked great in the vessel prior to pitching with plenty of head. The wort had been well aerated prior to pitching and pitching temp was between 78 and 80 degrees.

I'm wondering if I should run out to the LHBS and pick up an ampule of liquid yeast and toss it in. Ambient air temp is about 90, the temp of the fermentor is 86.

What do all you pro's think?

[dparsons]

Weirdness. An internet glitch got my post into the wrong thread.

[dparsons]

Twice

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by Bilbo Beergins
I use O2 in my yeast starter, but haven't used it in cooled wort, I just aerate. Have you noticed a difference between aeration and oxygenation of the wort?

There was a whole thread on this question in the homebrew-in general section of this board about a month or so back. This corner here seems to gather a whole lotta threads that rightfully belong under the hombrew section.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by mookow
After an experience like that, I think I'd only be patronizing my LHBS when I needed some supplies right now.

That is part of the reason to support a LBHS. It takes more money to run a storefront than a warehouse. There is value in having a person to talk to, being able to easily get an exchange when you or they make a mistake. Also factor in shipping charges. All that taken in, I'm willing to pay a little extra for the unpriced benefits - but not a lot extra.

[Bilbo Beergins]

Originally posted by Mill Rat
There was a whole thread on this question in the homebrew-in general section of this board about a month or so back. This corner here seems to gather a whole lotta threads that rightfully belong under the hombrew section.

How ludicrous that this should occur on a web site about brewing and drinking beer. My most sincere apologies. I also apologize for overlooking previous discussion, as I was in the final month of my schooling and was concentrating on my studies. Now I will beat myself ten times with a wet noodle. I'm a bad boy and I will never, ever, speak about brewing on "How To" again.

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by Bilbo Beergins
How ludicrous that this should occur on a web site about brewing and drinking beer. My most sincere apologies. I also apologize for overlooking previous discussion, as I was in the final month of my schooling and was concentrating on my studies. Now I will beat myself ten times with a wet noodle. I'm a bad boy and I will never, ever, speak about brewing on "How To" again.

My comment regarding the previous thread was meant to direct you to more information without requiring the rest of us to risk terminal carpal tunnel syndrome re-entering our timeless wisdom.

The comment regarding the the quantity of homebrewing threads here was more directed to brewmonkey, our esteemed thread moderator, than to you. RDWAHAHB!