Gordon Biersch's "Lagers vs Ales"

[xscotto]

I saw this bit of marketing savvy on the Gordon Biersch website:


"Most microbrews are ales. They use top fermented yeasts and are typically stored for about two weeks. Most ales are bitter and heavily hopped in flavor. Gordon Biersch brews lagers. Lagers use bottom fermented yeasts and are stored for about five weeks after brewing, which results in a full-bodied, smoother flavor than ales. Gordon Biersch brews beer that range in color from gold (Pilsner) to auburn (Märzen) to brown (Dunkles), but each of our flagship beers are lager style, resulting in what we think are wonderfully drinkable brews."


Sure sounds like they're saying "Lagers are better than ales" to me. Maybe in some very broad way that could be true, but I've had harsh lagers and smooth ales before. It just seemed like such a sweeping generalization that rubbed me wrong, and I figure I'm not the only beer nurd that might raise an eyebrow to that. I like to think they're different rather than one being better than the other, the whole question just seems silly.

Or maybe I'm just bitter (no pun) that there are no Gordon Biersch's in Texas?

(Linda Richman)
Discuss....

[xtalman]

I like GB's offering well enough, though I have only had the bottled versions and have not been to one of there pubs. I also think that alot, and this is a gross generalization, of brewers of lagers think they are better then ales. Peronally I like ales, though I can and do enjoy a good lager usually in the warmer months.

[Sladek]

"most ales are bitter and heavily hopped..."


Phhffftt!! That's simple marketing misinformation, right there!

[chazwicke]

Me Thinks GB tries to cater to a wider audience of macro drinkers. I've been to many of their pubs. We have 2 in DC area but I've been in them from Hawaii to San Fran to San Diego and they all make very good beer. They have the standard offerings that seem to be aimed at satisfying the BMC drinker yet also be somewhat interesting to the beer geek. A sort of middle ground. In my area the brewers are also given a bit of autonomy and can brew specialty items. I think they also occasionally do ales.

[L.H.H.H.Brown]

Don't know If I've ever had an ale from them. I agree with all that their beers are good ( I do like their seasonal stuff a lot ) but I also prefer "wilder" ales. Lagers are nice but mellow. I also have always felt GB was a little on the snooty side. Their restaurant are "upscale".

[The Alchemist]

I've sampled some of GB's beers in Columbus, O. Each time I have found them to be decent but nothing out of the ordinary. The exception for me was their Maibock which I thought was excellent. This ranks as one of my favorite styles so I might be biased.

[steveh]

Originally posted by xscotto
"Most microbrews are ales. They use top fermented yeasts and are typically stored for about two weeks. Most ales are bitter and heavily hopped in flavor."

Well, while "ales" don't really have to have a bitter, hoppy character, they have a point in that there is a majority of US micros brewed for hop-heads. On the other hand, many Pilsners can be just as hoppy!

What I think GB could say better is that it's more difficult to make a fine lager than an ale; more time consuming and less room for error based on lager profiles compared with ale profiles.

Or maybe I'm just bitter (no pun) that there are no Gordon Biersch's in Texas.

I know I'm bitter because there are no GBs in the Chicago area! If there are Trader Joes in your area, their house brands are brewed by GB (including a top fermented Weizen!).

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by The Alchemist
The exception for me was their Maibock which I thought was excellent. This ranks as one of my favorite styles so I might be biased.

I agree, the GB Maibock is a great rendition of the style, as is their Märzen.

S.

[xscotto]

I should say that my original post wasn't to question how good or not good GB's beers are, I'm sure they're fine and I like lagers too. It was just the "Our beers are better 'cause they're lagers and not ales" argument that got my attention. It seemed sillyer the more I thought about it.

That being said, if I went to my local Whip In and saw a Gordon Biersch product sitting next to something from Rogue, Dogfish Head, Avery, North Coast, Young's, or even our local Real Ale, I'd probably be walking out with an ale. Not because I don't like lagers or GB, but because those other guys simply make more interesting stuff. Like chazwicke said, they have a middle-of-the-road target audience, and most Americans would probably prefer a lager.

That being said, the Gordon Biersch in Palo Alto is on my beer tour itinerary in a few weeks, so I'll give them a try. The only GB I've ever had was an $8 American sized pint of pilsner at the San Jose airport. I remember liking it just fine, but not as much as some other micro pilsners I've had.

[cluckk]

If lagers and ales were stacked up against one another I would pick the ale almost everytime, the only exception being a Baltic Porter. I find I like ales more because they seem more interesting.

As for saying that most Americans prefer lagers, I think this is because few of them have tried good ales. After all until the last few years you could only find American lite lagers on most beer shelves. This is changing for the better. Here in Idaho most stores carry a lot of microbrewed ales. Everytime I introduce one of my friends to a good ale they quickly swear their love of it: "Where have you been all my life?" sort of thing.

Their statement of ales being bitter and hoppy, I guess they have never tried a Scottish ale or one of many other varieties.

[steveh]

Originally posted by cluckk
If lagers and ales were stacked up against one another I would pick the ale almost everytime, the only exception being a Baltic Porter. I find I like ales more because they seem more interesting.

I thought the same thing for a long time until my palate developed a bit more. Then I started to recognize and appreciate the subtleties of a well-crafted lager (emphasis on well-crafted).

I've given the analogy before, but it rings true: wine lovers tend to start their journey into their passion with light-flavored, less intimidating white wines. They work their way up to more and more robust, flavor-heavy (in-your-face) reds. Getting the experience of the flavor characteristics, they then look back at the more subtle - yet still characterful - whites and enjoy them with more appreciation. I see that as my journey from swill during my college days through imports to micro-ales (then some better import ales) and back to finding enjoyment in a good light lager.

S.

[Sladek]

I'm with Steve on lagers...maybe it's the German heritage, coming from Milwaukee (granted, those beers are all piss). I'm falling in love with Capital and their wonderful selection of lagers. I seek out micro pilsners. One of my stand-by beers is Paulaner Helles in cans--I think I picked it up on your mention, Steve. On the other hand, I love stouts and ESBs, and just about anything on cask, and Koelsches. I think I just look for a nice maltiness with a bit of bitterness, a nice balance, if it's a pilsner, Bock, Maerzen, ESB, whatever. I rarely have IPAs in my fridge.

I can understand why the American micro movement is so ale-dominated; "lager" erroneously connotes "light beer"; ales are quicker and relatively easier to make; and the hoppy assertiveness is probably a protest against macro piss. Everything that they are not.

However, if I could live in England (specifically London) and have their cask ales at my finger tips.....

[steveh]

Originally posted by Sladek
However, if I could live in England (specifically London) and have their cask ales at my finger tips.....

Sladek - there are a couple brew-pubs in Mad-Town making a good cask ale, and the Milwaukee Ale House had a great Pale Ale on cask a few weeks ago - good cask is out there.

S.

[Sladek]

Originally posted by steveh
Sladek - there are a couple brew-pubs in Mad-Town making a good cask ale, and the Milwaukee Ale House had a great Pale Ale on cask a few weeks ago - good cask is out there.

S.
I remember the Dane occasionally (or regularly?) has some cask ales. Milwaukee Ale House...don't know them. Next time I go "home" I'm hitting as many breweries/pubs as I can. I still haven't been to Sprecher!

Mpls Town Hall, which isn't far from me, usually has their IPA and stout on cask; I wish they had their ESB on cask, I prefer it to the IPA (although on cask the IPA is lovely).

[chazwicke]

The real ale situation in the States continues to improve but is far, far behind Britian. I love that brewers are making the effort here but some have been pretty bad. and some of their choices of styles to put on cask have been downright weird, yet interesting. I am finding more and more good cask beers available and that makes me happy.

[HogieWan]

I'm starting to enjoy the lagers more and more now, but I do agree that their "lagers are always better" attitude puts me off.

[surfadelic23]

I had their Minden MaiBock at their Carlsbad Location. Easily the best thing they brewed. Their other offerings were ok but the Pizza Port down the road beat all offerings hands down...

[newportstorm]

Gordon Biersch brews mainly lagers. It stands to reason they'd state their beers are best. Spinning/twisting facts and some creative wordsmithing are nothing new when selling products - especially alcohol.

That said, there is a dearth of great lagers in most places in the US, even with craft beer growing and succeeding. I don't begrudge GB for calling attention to theirs and trying to appeal to people who might not be "in the know". Get 'em hooked and try to make them a customer for life.

Cheers!

[The Alchemist]

I don't mean to be stating the obvious, but I think it is also a German thing. GB and several other breweries are German themed and produce mostly lagers because that is their heritage. With the exception of weizens, alts and kolsch, other German products are lagers. Penn Brewery, near me, makes great lager beers as well as an award-winning weizen. I wish that I had access to Capital, as their beers really entice me. I also don't want to stereotype anyone, but I think many people get in to craft beers through ales because most micros produce these. If they don't branch out and try the full spectrum, they may easily miscontrue"lagers" as being only of the pilsner variety that the big boys produce. I use the term pilsner lightly here. As others have already stated, try the bocks, helles,true pilsners, octoberfest/maerzens, etc. There are a world of flavors in the lager family. I don' t know any style that I don't enjoy, lager or ale. But we all have are favorites. Sometimes, it just depends on what's available or the occasion.

[steveh]

Well said Alchemist.

S.

[Sladek]

I agree as well. It's a shame that most people think "lager" means "Miller Lite". Hell, look at British English: don't they differentiate "lager", meaning pale piss, from "beer"?

Drinking a MN Koelsch right now...not bad, though I've never had the real thing.

[Gordonstoun]

In my opinion, Gordon Biersch's best product is their weizenbier (which is quite good). I don't know which yeast they use, but most Bavarian producers us ale yeasts for their weizens...and if GB is true to style, their wheat beer is, technically, an ale.

[shirteesdotnet]

I enjoy their hefeweizen above all other hefes ive tried. GB hefe is a nice mellow brew with that banana/bubble gum characteristic. Ive yet to come across that in any other hefe. Widmer and Pyramids hefes dont compare to a GB.. If I wanted a lemon in my beer, Id just as easily, and probably cheaper order up a Corona. At least with GBs hefeweizen you get to have a little taste out of the norm.

[Gordonstoun]

Have you had the weizens from Paulaner, Weihenstaphan, and Maisel? I'd rate all of them way above GB (Maisel is the beer that ushered me into the craft beer revolution). GB is probably the best of the American Weizens, but the Germans still hold the edge.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Gordonstoun
but most Bavarian producers us ale yeasts for their weizens...their wheat beer is, technically, an ale.

Most Bavarian brewers use a "Weizenbier" yeast, and while top-fermenting, is not technically an ale yeast - it was developed for the style in particular, not picked up from a Bitter or Scotch ale.

You can read many experts (Jackson included) who will split their beer segments into top fermenting and bottom fermenting, and "ales" will be a sub category of the top fermentation group - along with Weizens, Wits, Stouts, and Porters - among others.

And Shirt, Pyramid and Widmer are categorized as "American Wheats," while GB brews a "Bavarian Wheat." There are substantial differences in the ingredient balances as well as the yeasts used.

S.

[Gordonstoun]

Most Bavarian brewers use a "Weizenbier" yeast, and while top-fermenting, is not technically an ale yeast - it was developed for the style in particular, not picked up from a Bitter or Scotch ale.

Are they S. cerevisiae, or S. uvarum?

[shirteesdotnet]

SteveH, thanks for that tidbit. Do you know what the differences are in American vs. Bavarian hefe's? Are the malts similar? What about hops? I remember listening to that beer radio show someplace here on the internet and when they interviewed Dan Gordon, he said every single one of GBs beers use Hallertau Mitt hops. Im just guessing their hefe uses the same also.

[steveh]

Shirt - American "Hefes" use more of a balance between barley and wheat, Bavarians tip toward the wheat with Pilsner malt completing the bill (70 - 30%).

Any of the Noble hops can be used in a Bavarian Hefe - Tetnang is a favorite. American Wheats run the gammut of import and domestic hops.

Info: http://www.bjcp.org/styles04/Category15.html#style15A
And: http://www.bjcp.org/styles04/Category6.html#style6D

Gordon - Saccharomyces delbrueckii. ;)

Wyeast Labs #3056 is a mixed culture of S. delbrueckii and S. cerevisiae strains, but the #3068 is a direct Weihenstephan strain.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/beprlist.htm#whe

S.

[shirteesdotnet]

Inta-resting, wery wery inta-resting! Zank You!

Great... I cant wait to brew up a bavarian hefe soon!

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by shirteesdotnet
SteveH, thanks for that tidbit. Do you know what the differences are in American vs. Bavarian hefe's? Are the malts similar? What about hops? I remember listening to that beer radio show someplace here on the internet and when they interviewed Dan Gordon, he said every single one of GBs beers use Hallertau Mitt hops. Im just guessing their hefe uses the same also.

Remember that there are two basic Hefe styles in Germany too. The Bavarian is the one with the bananna/clove/bubblegum flavor while the Northern style is more similiar to the American versions in flavor.

Widmer is highly over rated.

Which Maisels? There were actually two. I believe you are speaking of the one in Bayruth.

[shirteesdotnet]

Originally posted by chazwicke
The Bavarian is the one with the bananna/clove/bubblegum flavor

Thats the one i'm going for!

[steveh]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Remember that there are two basic Hefe styles in Germany too.


No, there are 2 styles of Weizenbier in Germany, not 2 Hefe (yeast). The Berliner Weiss is more akin to a Gueuze than a Bavarian Weizen - and yes, more akin to an American Wheat in its ingredients -- except maybe the yeast (Lactobacillus delbruckii) that creates a very lactic, tart character.

http://www.bjcp.org/styles04/Category17.html#style17A

S.