American "CAMRA" clone

[Chris St Mary]

In another post, I put out an idea to see if anyone would be interested in starting an organization nationwide that would be like CAMRA is in the UK.
CAMRA is basicaly a political action committee that looks out for the interests of the common beer drinker. They helped to save the early demise of real ale and make sure that the average beer drinker gets a full pint for the price of a full pint and not 2" of foam on the top so the bar is selling less beer to you and making more money.
These are just a couple of the things they look out for. There are many others and we, of course, would have some topics that would apply to us that could be addressed.
Everyone who subscribes to this list is a good beer lover and also a consumer. This would be a consumer advocacy for OUR interests and as the saying goes, "There's strength in numbers."
Anyone care to discuss my idea?

[Wilson]

I think its a great idea, I wonder if contacting the AHA would help. I think organization would be key, and they seem to have some infastructure for that.

[Chris St Mary]

Good thought! Maybe not just the AHA but the Brewers Institute (or whatever they are called today) or whatever the parent organization is. I have the latest copy of Zymurgy. I'll have to do some research and let you know. Beertown.com is a portal to them. I'll get back to you.

[Chris St Mary]

The Brewers Association. I can contact them if I see enough interest in this thread. How about it, beer lovers? Want to have a say in what happens to beer in your area? How about in your state or country? Organization is the key and we can do it if we decide to stand together on this.
Anyone have anything to say? Questions? Answers? "Gimme another beer?"

[MeridianFC]

A consumerists beer organization. That's a great idea. Brewers got their reps, distribution theirs, let's get ours!

Chris, fwiw The Society for Preservation of Beer from the Wood (SPBW) does have a branch in the US.

[stronk]

You may be able to get some good tips from the CAMRA founders, if you can get in touch with them. It's not going to be quite the same thing, though, as CAMRA are purely pushing real ale, whereas most US beer wouldn't qualify and you'd have to find some other way to specify you're only working for good beer.

Possibly you'd want to start off in a few beer-friendly areas and expand state by state.
Also, to get people interested in joining, there has to be some benefit other than just the common good. CAMRA does it with festivals and publications.

[Kalleh1]

I am absolutely interested, as I stated in the other thread. I don't know as much about beer as some of the rest of you, though I love cask conditioned and bottle conditioned beer, and I hate it when there is 2 inches of foam on a beer. I am happy to help in any way I could.

[Bloodaxe]

First of all, I hope this makes some kind of sense as I've been out tonight! Yes, I believe there should be a proper American version of CAMRA- you're good organizers- what are you waiting for? I was always told that it's better to have half a dozen enthusiasts than 30 maybes! I've driven some 7000 miles through the US and I like the people, apart from 2, maybe 3 assholes! We share a common heritage, and are usually Allies, even if it is in a argumentitive brother sort of relationship! If any American is/is coming to in the NE of England, let me know, I'll try to get 'em some decent beer!

[chazwicke]

I to like the idea of an American CAMRA. I've long been in favor of a beer consumerists organization that might help educate fellow drinkers and also retailers, distributers, and even breweries. It'd be nice not to have flourecent lights on beer in coolers, have more Real Ale available, possibly even proper glassware for serving in restaurants and bars. There is a whole gammit of things. I have thought about this for a long time. I once got myself into hot water discussing this very subject with a local brewers organization back in the 80s. Anyway, if I could help create more awareness of Real Ale and increase it's availability (with proper handling) I'd be up for that. I'm a Life CAMRA member and a member of SPBW Chesapeake Branch as well. I've seen changes in the US beer world when it comes to cask conditioned beer and most have been positive. It seems that there is a real thirst for it. I have predicted that most decent beer drinking establishments will have at least one beer engine with in a decade or so. The real challenge is education. Our drinking culture is very different than the British pub culture. So it will take much work and much education. I do remember when we discussed it before Kalleh1. And I know Meridian and I have similar thoughts and love of real ale. I'm glad to see the others here too. Thanks Chris for bringing this back up.

[Kalleh1]

apart from 2, maybe 3 assholes!
Hmmm, I believe I may know to whom you are referring. ;)
If any American is/is coming to in the NE of England, let me know, I'll try to get 'em some decent beer!
Well, a few Wordcrafters (a Web site where we have lots of fun with words, especially British/American differences) are coming to Birmingham during the week of October 9th. Does that count? Richard will be there, so we will have a good beer authoritarian.

[Bloodaxe]

Rule 1: Never post when yer pissed! Looking back at my last posting it makes some sense but wanders a little- too much beer!(Nah!) Well, Kalleh1 I live some 220 miles North of Birmingham so I doubt I'll be there, but you never know! Your Wordcrafters site sounds interesting- have you a link? I've always been fascinated with language and how it's developed and I'm aware of some of the reasons why the American and English versions have diverged from each other. Ever read Bill Bryson's book "Mother Tongue"? Written by an American who lived in England for 20 years, so he has wide experience of the way the language has developed on both sides of the Atlantic.
Getting back to beer, I can't see why starting an american equivalent to CAMRA shouldn't be immediate- it just needs someone to set the ballrolling. Perhaps exchange visits could be arranged!

[Kalleh1]

Heavens...200 miles is a hop, skip and a jump by American standards. I often travel 200 miles from Chicago to Springfield for meetings in one day. So, we expect to see you! ;)

Here's the link to the Wordcraft (http://wordcraft.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?cdra=Y&s=441607094) forum. Richard English posts there a lot, and once and awhile your prolific Chaz may even appear! I am about as prolific on Wordcraft as Chaz is here. We'd love to see you!

[Bloodaxe]

I'm a furniture mover by trade- I drive a truck so I'm used to travelling! It ain't the distance- it's the time! I'm self employed so taking time off isn't easy- time is money, I find it difficult getting away even for a weekend! But we'll see how it goes!

[Chris St Mary]

Glad to see some interest out there. I think the first step will be as stated earlier, to contact the Brewers Association and see if we can get some help there. I will keep you all alerted to my progress.
Just think, this could be history in the making (or it could be just another wank on the road to another beer or two).:D

[Kalleh1]

I know, Chris, I was thinking that, too. I was at Sam's Liquor in Chicago this weekend, and their beer expert was helping me find some Sri Lankan beer that Richard had told me about. We got to talking, and I told him about realbeer.com and the CAMRA thoughts. That's when I realized that he wasn't quite the beer expert that I thought he was. He said, "What's CAMRA?" Oh...and he is writing a book on good beer! :rolleyes:

[fretlessman71]

I've emailed the person supposedly in charge of my local chapter of CAMRA... twice. With no response or success. Chris, one option might be to contact CAMRA in Great Britain and tell them of your thoughts; they might be willing to help you rekindle interest in US-based CAMRA leagues somehow. Then again, it might be better to come up with a more "American-friendly" acronym...

[Chris St Mary]

He could still be writing a book on good American beers. We all had to crawl before we could walk. I was lucky enough to start my journey by way of imports. My best friend in college and I used to go into Manhattan every weekend and drink at the Peculiar Pub on W. 4th St. in Greenwich Village. They had something that was unheard of in my life.....a menu in a bar just for the beers! Over 300! Unthinkable! I then started to seek out domestic good beer. The rest, as they say, is history.
Try mentoring him or at least guiding him. You have the experience that he could really use in his line of work. Teach him.
He may surprise you. I taught a friend how to brew about 10 years ago and he is currently on his annual trip to Belgium!

"Alive! It's alive! IT'S ALIVE!!!!!!!!"

Baron Von Frankenstein

[Richard English]

Quote "...I'm self employed so taking time off isn't easy- time is money, I find it difficult getting away even for a weekend..."

Join the club! As I have often said, being self-employed is great, as it means you only have to work when you like to work. Of course, you have to like working all the time...

But seriously, we all need time off and, whether we like it or not, the world goes on whether we're involved or not.

The train and metro from Brockley Wins (I assume that's your nearest station) takes under 4 hours to Birmingham (so you'd be able to drink). We have accommodation booked at the Thistle at about 50% of the normal rate and you'd be very welcome to stay with us. We anticipate visiting a few West Midlands pubs!

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Kalleh1
I know, Chris, I was thinking that, too. I was at Sam's Liquor in Chicago this weekend, and their beer expert was helping me find some Sri Lankan beer that Richard had told me about. We got to talking, and I told him about realbeer.com and the CAMRA thoughts. That's when I realized that he wasn't quite the beer expert that I thought he was. He said, "What's CAMRA?" Oh...and he is writing a book on good beer! :rolleyes:

And was that Sri Lankan beer Lion Stout? An excellent beer!!

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
I've emailed the person supposedly in charge of my local chapter of CAMRA... twice. With no response or success. Chris, one option might be to contact CAMRA in Great Britain and tell them of your thoughts; they might be willing to help you rekindle interest in US-based CAMRA leagues somehow. Then again, it might be better to come up with a more "American-friendly" acronym...

I agree it is probably better to contact the CAMRA headquarters. Or possibly just start our own new entity.

[Richard English]

Quote "...I've emailed the person supposedly in charge of my local chapter of CAMRA... twice. With no response or success. ..."

I have heard this previously and it does the image of CAMRA no good at all. I'd be happy to get in touch with them but, quite frankly, and email is the same from anywhere and it might look better coming from an American.

I have frequently emailed CAMRA HQ myself and have always had a response.

iF there's a need for a UK-based person to help with this initiative then I would be happy to do consider the job. I am a life-member of CAMRA myself.

[Chris St Mary]

I'll contact them and let you know the outcome. Thanks for the offer, Richard and if need be, I will take you up on it. I currently have an email to the Brewers Association in Boulder awaiting a reply, also.

[Richard English]

Quote "...Or possibly just start our own new entity...."

It might be better to try to piggy-back on CAMRA's success, even if the US CAMRA were to run autonomously.

Although the acronym might not be as well-known in the USA, CAMRA has been the UK's most successful consumer group ever. So much so that there have been many other bodies who have borrowed the "Campaign for..." idea. There's even a CARTA - Campaign for Real Travel Agents!

So how about CAMRUSA? Campaign for Real US Ale. I accept that ale is not a common US drink but the acronym cries out for a "USA" ending and this option makes a pronounceable and memorable acronym, with an obvious US association.

[Chris St Mary]

I'm leaning towards a hybrid of the Brewers Association AND CAMRA. They both have tons of experience in organization skills and they also have alot of ideas that would apply along with some that wouldn't. By going "cafeteria style" we could hand pick what fits best and what applies best to what we want to do.
Always open to input from anyone out there, though.

[Richard English]

Quote "...I'm leaning towards a hybrid of the Brewers Association AND CAMRA...."

You will possibly find that the brewers' association in the USA, as was the case in the UK, will be very cynical. The major input to such associations is from the big brewers and they, in the USA, have over 90% of the beer market.

I took CAMRA a long time to be treated other than as a joke by the major brewers in the UK. Which is another reason for trying to use CAMRA's success.

[chazwicke]

I actually brought a consumerist organization idea up during a meeting / strategy session of a craft brewers assn that I attended back in the late 80s. They were not happy that I was looking at the issues from a consumers standpoint and not a craft brewer standpoint. In my view some of the issues that both groups had would go hand in hand. They were looking for suppoert only for their own viewpoint. I am less hopeful that the Brewers Assn will be a big help.

[Chris St Mary]

You need to be aware that the Brewers Association is an umbrella group for beer in the states. They encompass the American Homebrewers Association, the Craftbrewers Guild and the Brewing Institute. Granted, Richard is kind of right that they involve the big breweries but they were set up by and for the little guys so I'm still hopeful they may be of use. Time will tell.
When you attend the Great American Beer Festival, AB et al are represented just because of their size and money making them "un-ignorable". The majority of the beer there is craftbrewed and on a much smaller scale.

[Richard English]

Quote "...You need to be aware that the Brewers Association is an umbrella group for beer in the states. They encompass the American Homebrewers Association, the Craftbrewers Guild and the Brewing Institute...."

Quite so. But they are a trade association, not a consumer association and therein lies the difference. Very few trade associations have any interest in their customers except as a source of profit (I know that's not what they say publicly, but believe me, that's what they believe). Very few trade associations will intercede on behalf of a customer who has received bad service from a member - just complaining to a trade organisation if you don't believe me.

Consumer organisations are pressure groups who get things done to benefit customers, not suppliers. Had it not been for the influence of CAMRA, everyone in the world would now be drinking fizzy. yellow chemical muck, thinking that it's beer, because that is what's profitable and profits are what businesses are all about. The US craft brewery revolution came about in spite of the Brewers Association, not because of it, you can be quite sure of that.

Now that the craft beer movement is becoming important the Brewers Association will talk to them, of course. But I doubt they did nothing to start the movement.

[Chris St Mary]

Very valid points, Richard. I really look forward to trying to get together with you on my next trip "across the pond".

[Bloodaxe]

Good point Richard! I do get the line about "working when you want to" said to me frequently. I usually reply that you end up working when you don't want to! I'll try to make it if I can, thanks for the offer! I'm also trying to get the odd week-end off for one of my other hobbies- I'm a hot rodder, I occasionally enjoy a drink or two at those events too (not drinking and driving I hasten to add), trouble is as with most events organised in fields the beer is rather poor- usually take my own.
I can't see any reason why CAMRA or rather a US version of it shouldn't take off well. There's what, 300 million people in the USA? That's an awful lot of potential members! I visited the Chicago Beer Festival a few years ago and had a chance to try a variety of US beers, they were pretty good! I've also found a few craft pubs on my travels over there, one I remember being in Ann Arbor which did some good stuff and one in Fredericksburg, Texas which was excellent but closed at 9pm, as did most of the bars there- only found one still open after that time, and we used to complain in the UK about the 11pm chucking out!

[Chris St Mary]

I got a reply from the Brewers Association saying that the person that received it was forwarding it to alot of others there and I should expect to hear back from all of them. Let's see what happens.

[chazwicke]

Keep us posted.

[Richard English]

Call me a cynic but I sometimes wonder whether forwarding emails is often a subsititute for doing the job yourself...

But well done, anyway. I really think that CAMRUSA is on its way at last.

When Watneys and Ind Coope, both large brewers of sub-standard fizz-beer in the UK around 30 years ago, started to take notice of CAMRA, Ind Coope brewed a very fine strong Ale called "Burton" and Watneys produced a cask version of their own Special Bitter.

Wouldn't it be amazing were Dudweiser to brew a proper beer again after nearly a century of brewing tasteless fizz - thanks to the efforts of CAMRUSA!

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by Richard English

Wouldn't it be amazing were Dudweiser to brew a proper beer again after nearly a century of brewing tasteless fizz - thanks to the efforts of CAMRUSA!

A REAL domestic pilsener - mmmmm.

[Chris St Mary]

Let's not get CRAZY now, Richard. Wait....I think I just saw a pig fly by my window!!!!:D

[Richard English]

Do you know, that's exactly what people said 35 years ago when CAMRA was started. The brewing leviathons poo-pooed the efforts of this small upstart organisation and even the smaller traditional breweries - Young's, Fuller's and the like - had little hope that the march to keg beers and lagers could be halted.

The UK would be like the USA, they thought, with just a few mega-fizz brewers controlling the whole market.

But CAMRA succeeded and its efforts led to the USA's craft beer revival. Now it's time for the USA to have a CAMRA chapter - but one that is, as befitting a larger country, a larger organisation.

If lots of Americans start to drink good beer then brewers will start to supply it.

[Chris St Mary]

I do need to confess that over the Xmas Holidays, I did partake of an AB product. They had made a special batch of Michelob that they named Celebrate and they packaged it in a 22 oz bottle. It was a lager that was aged in oak barrels with vanilla beans. It wasn't something I would want to drink all the time but it was INTERESTING. I was shocked that AB would even bother making something that had some color, let alone SOME TASTE. Maybe you might be right. "From your lips to God's ears!"

[stronk]

I wonder what would happen if A-B just changed the recipe for Budweiser one day (with a suitable ad campaign for 'new taste'). I think it would really change the whole beer market globally. Of course, they'd have to be mad to do it, because it would lead to their profits being eroded as massive numbers of loyal bud drinkers decided to branch out to other beers that tasted similar to the new bud... *sigh*

I also wonder what the combined market values of the major world brewers are and if any individuals in the world have enough money to simply buy them all (if we forget about the monopoly laws).

[Jeff]

Originally posted by stronk
Of course, they'd have to be mad to do it, because it would lead to their profits being eroded as massive numbers of loyal bud drinkers decided to branch out to other beers that tasted similar to the new bud... *sigh*

I don't think you would see mass conversion to real beer. You would see Coors or Miller eat up a lion's share of the former Bud fans. Most people don't want to taste their beer.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by Chris St Mary
Let's not get CRAZY now, Richard. Wait....I think I just saw a pig fly by my window!!!!:D

I remember in the late 80s/early 90s when the microbrew thing was starting to kick into full gear, they said craft brew would never top 1% of the domestic market..........................

[Kalleh1]

I don't know about the rest of you Americans, but I am hoping that our CAMRUSA and our real beer will be better than the Brits'! ;)

[Richard English]

Although I have not yet drunk an American draught beer that is better than the finest that we have in the UK, there is no doubt that some of the better US bottled beers (I am thinking of Goose Island IPA as just one example) stand comparison with anything the rest of the world can offer.

What an amazing turnaround from the time when, less than a quarter of a century ago, American beer was a bad joke. I still remember my first ever visit, in 1979, and that first taste of American beer. I don't even remember what it was but that icy cold, tasteless and anaemic liquid made a lasting impression on me. And I don't just mean that carbonic acid bite that nearly took off the roof of my mouth, or the splitting headache I had the next morning:mad:

I wsasn't until my third trip, in 1986, when I visited San Francisco and drank Anchor Steam, that I found an American beer that even resembled beer as I knew it.

On my last trip (to Florida) I was able to drink bottled Sierra Nevada at my hotel and draught Shipyard at the Cricketer's Arms. I was sorry to leave.

[fretlessman71]

Sierra Nevada is, for all intents and purposes, the beer that pushed American craft beer into the "We Ain't Goin' Nowhere" category, and the reason I shunned "chemical fizz" back in the early '90s. Oh, SN Porter... where would I have gone without you?... :)

[chazwicke]

Anyone Remember Prinz Brau from Alaska. A brewery that opened in the late 70s? We drank their beer fairly often at the Brickskeller. Wonder what ever happened to them?

[Wilson]

Originally posted by Jeff
I don't think you would see mass conversion to real beer. You would see Coors or Miller eat up a lion's share of the former Bud fans. Most people don't want to taste their beer.

I'm not so sure of this. Most of the chemical fizz drinkers here are very brand loyal (this is what makes advertising with NASCAR very profitable), so if A-B was to make an alternative, I guess I'd like to think it would open their minds a little. (Open minded? Down here? Never!! :eek: )

Looking forward to hearing the responses Chris, but I think Richard is right, we should also contact the headquarters and see what they would suggest doing.

[Chris St Mary]

I contacted CAMRA HQ and the response they gave was to contact the American CAMRA branches. Looks like we're on our own. I don't see what contacting the American branches will do for us. They have already been in existance and don't quite get it done for the average American beer consumer. If they did, wouldn't more people have heard of them and be involved? This whole thread came about because there really is no one consumer advocate group for American beer drinkers that exists that is getting the job done. If there was, this would all be a moot point.
Still haven't heard anything more from the Brewers Association. Let's see what transpires on that end before we proceed on our own. Not alot of hope of anything different but you never know. Fingers crossed.

[Richard English]

So tell them what you've just told us - that their American branches aren't replying to emails and seem to be about much use as a glass of Dudweiser! And tell them that's why you and others are trying to do something about it all.

Their response is a cop-out and not worthy of them.

[Chris St Mary]

To be fair, it looked like the email went to a general mail box and a secretary or receptionist is the one who responded. Granted, she should know better than to tell me to contact the local branches (especially since I said that they weren't very effective and that I was looking to start up an American version to deal with the American beer drinkers' needs).
If anyone can get me a better email address to contact someone in a position with a title or some sort of power within the organization, I will gladly give it another go. Otherwise, as I said before, we're on our own.
No worries. We should do just fine if we all work together for the common good. I'll start working out a platform and get back to you with it when I have something worthwhile to look at. Any input is always welcome.

[MeridianFC]

You might just be best off starting your own local/regional CAMRA branch. I'd imagine most of the handful of US based branches, while having cask at the fore, also concern themselves with general good beer issues on this side. Start small then network or connect.

You should also probably get in touch with Alex Hall in NYC/Brooklyn. He's the master of all cask happening in the USA.

http://www.cask-ale.co.uk/us/

[Richard English]

Quote "...You might just be best off starting your own local/regional CAMRA branch...."

But you'd need CAMRA's permission to do that - which is why I suggest trying to get in touch with the right person. CAMRA need to know if their US people aren't doing their job.

Get in touch with the Chief Executive if necessary!

As I said, I'd be happy to do the job but I reckon it's better coming from an American saying, "...Hey, we want to join CAMRA and the local people don't want to know us...!"

[MeridianFC]

There are only a few US branches and they are rather spread out:

FLORIDA/SOUTHEAST USA: Contact Brian J Mistler
email Brian J Mistler

MASSACHUSETTS & NEW ENGLAND: Contact Jonathan Tuttle
(413) 367-9303

NORTH CAROLINA & NORTH EAST USA: Contact Bruce Wright
(01) 919 342 4071 (h)

NEBRASKA & MID WEST USA: Contact Dale J Andersen
(402) 571 4506 (h)
email Dale J Anderson

http://www.camra.org.uk/SHWebClass.ASP?WCI=ShowDoc&DocID=97

[Chris St Mary]

Looks like I'm not going to hear anything else back from the Brewers Association. No one has tried to contact me so I figure I'll see what I can do on my own. Don't want to be a branch of CAMRA with how ineptly they handled my request. I'll keep you posted.
Is there a way to post this idea so that it will get the most people reading it? If I'm going to pursue this, I'd really like to get a good idea of what kind of interest and support there is out there in cyberspace. This post ended up being a good place to start but I need to get the message out to more people who read this website.
Thanks, in advance.

[Richard English]

Quote "...Looks like I'm not going to hear anything else back from the Brewers Association....

I think you're wasting your time with the Brewers' Association; I am quite unsurprised by their lack of response as they represent brewers, not consumers and the last thing they want is an organisation that might make them produce better-quality beers to the detriment of their profits.

I am surprised at CAMRA's apparent lack of interest but I still feel your chance of getting anything started is better if you can get CAMRA's support. Starting anything from scratch is always difficult.

By the way, did you go back to CAMRA and tell them that their local people didn't return your messages?

[Chris St Mary]

No, I didn't try to contact CAMRA again. Unless I can get someone else's email address, I'm still going to get the same administrative assistant and I don't put much faith in her after her last attempt to "help" me.
I get the feeling that CAMRA has little interest because it won't really affect them directly, similar to your take on the Brewers Association. "If it's not going to line our coffers, spend as little time on it as possible", might be how they both are thinking. Who knows why I've gotten (or not gotten) the responses I have.
I will be across the pond in June, it looks like, so I can possibly have a "face-to-face" in St. Albans if I feel like pursuing it with them.

[Richard English]

I will try to get another address for you.

I do not, though, agree with your belief about CAMRA; members are the life-blood of any organisation and CAMRA doesn't have sufficient of them. Your suggestion "..."If it's not going to line our coffers, spend as little time on it as possible",..." might be true of the Brewers' Association since they have no possibility of obtaining revenue from beer enthusiasts. However, CAMRA charges a membership fee and they need members.

I will get back in touch when I have further information.

[Chris St Mary]

I understand your feelings on CAMRA and I agree to a point. I am a member and believe in the organization and everything it stands for. I was refering to my immediate situation and how it wouldn't really contribute to or affect them directly. Maybe it's just the bad taste that was left in my mouth by the response I got from the administrative assistant.
Mea culpa. I apologize if it was taken in the wrong way. CAMRA is a great organization that does what it is supposed to do and is very worthy of everyone on this list's membership. I'll just have to hope to get another email address so that I can get a proper response to help our cause.
As far as your feelings about the Brewers Association, I don't think it is quite the same as a trade organization in England. If they were to help with this start-up, it would help them with sales down the road. The majority of the members of the Craft Brewers Association (a smaller group that is a part of) would probably love to have someone championing their products. Another part is the American Homebrewers Association and they are the backbone of the market of the aforementioned CBA. Still, a bureaucracy is a bureaucracy (sp?) no matter how big or small. Maybe they'll surprise me and someone will actually respond!

[Richard English]

If you're a member then you should be able to get the names of the main contacts if you log in to the members' area. I can't presently log in as my password seems to have become corrupted, or I'd have done it.

Sadly it is so often the case that the person who is the public face of an organisation is the most junior, the least well-trained and most lowly paid person in the entire outfit - and that is what, I suspect, you have been experiencing.

[MeridianFC]

FWIW I've always gotten prompt and pleasant responses when contacting CAMRA.

[Kalleh1]

Richard, I know the OED responds better to snail mail than to email. Could it be the same for CAMRA? If you could find me an address, I'd be most happy to write them a letter and send it to them.

I'd really like to get something started!

[Richard English]

I have never had a problem with CAMRA myself and the only reason I've not written about this idea is simply that I feel the contact should be by an American.

However, CAMRA does have a snailmail address and telephone number as well as email. Their full contact details are:

Campaign for Real Ale
230 Hatfield Road
St Albans,
Hertfordshire
AL1 4LW
UK

Tel: 01727-867201 Fax: 01727-867670

camra@camra.org.uk

I am sure that once a message gets to the right person then they will be helpful and enthusiastic, the more so since National Pubs Week is taking place from 18 to 25 February and I am sure that CARA would like to add an international flavour to that.

Incidentally, I shall be chairing a debate on beer at the Victoria to celebrate National Pubs Week, so, anyone who's in London that week...

[Kalleh1]

Thanks, Richard. I will talk with you via email about what points I should make. Right now, I am not even sure what to ask them!

[Chris St Mary]

I would think that the main point to be made is that we would like to start an American version of CAMRA that is focused on the American consumers needs and wants. Naturally, good beer is #1 but they will only be able to give us an outline because they are dealing with the equivalent of our federal laws while we have to deal with those PLUS each individual state's laws. I think a very wide overview would be the place to start. We can fine tune it as we go along.
Anyone have any ideas as to what our platform should address?
We should probably expand this thread to include more people. Right now, it's under Beer in the UK and Ireland and there are some people, by virtue of not caring for the styles that are predominant in that area, that won't even venture into that area, hence they won't know what we want to do with them included.

[fretlessman71]

Fear not: Most people click on "view new posts" when they log in, so no matter what forum you post in, we'll get to read about it.

[Richard English]

I understand and accept what you say about the differences between the USA and the UK. However, CAMRA is a lobbying body, not a legal firm and the differences between UK and US laws, both Federal and State, should not really affect the issue.

Why I am keen on there being a US chapter, branch or division of CAMRA, rather than a totally new organisation, is simply that CAMRA has done much (and made many mistakes) in the past 35 years and it is better to capitalise on CAMRA's experience.

I am still amazed that, if I understand the various postings correctly, CAMRA simply tell enquirers to get in touch with one of the US CAMRA representatives, and the US CAMRA representatives then don't bother to reply. If I have this correct, then the way forward is to make CAMRA HQ aware of what's going on and, if you in the USA (who should rightfully be the ones lobbying) are getting nowhere, then I would be happy to see what I can do.

Only today I was on the 'phone to CAMRA HQ and received, as I always do, prompt, courteous and accurate information which solved the problem I had.

Unless and until CAMRA declare that they have no interest in the USA I think we should pursue the angle of getting CAMRA's support.

Maybe someone should write to Paula Walters, CAMRA's National Chairman (yes, she is a lady - not all British beer drinkers have beards and bellies).

As to what a beer-consumers' lobbying body should address - again, why re-invent? Take a look here http://www.camra.org.uk/SHWebClass.asp?WCI=FrameSet and see just some of the campaigns that CAMRA is presently involved with.

[Chris St Mary]

To explain what I was refering to, the Federal Gov't has the BATF (or whatever they are calling it today) the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. They have the final say but each individual state has some version of the above to control the sale and procurment of alcoholic beverages. That's where it gets dodgey.
Some states, you can buy ANY alcohol product in a supermarket, some it's only beer and wine and some you need to go to an ABC store(Alcoholic Beverage Control). Still others have laws (like Utah) that require you to go to the ABC if you want anything over 3.2% ABW. It's very confusing and something that will need to be addressed as we progress but to start the organization we can just focus on the basic platform of good beer, I think.
Make that, "The beer consumer's voice for the enjoyment of Good Beer."
How ya likin' me now?

[Richard English]

I accept what you say but, as I said earlier, why should this be of importance to a consumer body whose interest is in promoting the appreciation and conservation of fine beer?

CAMRA, now a mature organisation, does involve itself with legislation - but that is far from its main purpose and it didn't get involved in these kinds of things until it was strong enough.

Of course, there is much that CAMRA has achieved and that is presently lacking in the USA (proper control of dispense quantities, to start with) but this can come later once CAMRA USA is properly established and has a thriving membership and thus a voice that the legislators will take notice of.

[Chris St Mary]

All very valid points and exactly the reason I attempted to work with them in the first place. My initial response from them set me off and it's just now, after much time and discussion that I am realizing that you are entirely right and I will make another attempt to contact them for assistance.
My original thought was that they have all this experience and I could avoid some of the pit falls that they have already had by asking for their help. I will send a letter to the Chairwoman and hope for a positive response from either her or someone she designates to correspond with me.
I will keep you all posted as to the results.

[Richard English]

If you go into the members' section you'll find details of how to contact all the committee members so you don't need to snailmail them.

I won't publish the details here since they are not shown in the non-members' part of the CAMRA site.

If you get no joy, let me know and I'll have a real go at them! I could be at their HQ in an hour on the train from here!

[Kalleh1]

I will send a letter to the Chairwoman and hope for a positive response from either her or someone she designates to correspond with me.
Okay, Chris, I will let you write them, then. Let me know if you'd like my help.
If you get no joy, let me know and I'll have a real go at them!
Ah, another UK/US linguistic difference. We'd surely not use "joy" that way.

[fretlessman71]

Does the UK "joy" translate as "satisfaction" to us? That's what I take it to mean...

[Richard English]

"No joy" is an idiomatic UK expression that is very common. Basically it means, as Kalleh1 has correctly deduced, "no satisfaction". In other words, the action you have taken has not produced the result you wanted.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Does the UK "joy" translate as "satisfaction" to us? Originally posted by Richard English
Basically it means, as Kalleh1 has correctly deduced, "no satisfaction". Funny, I'm getting the strange feeling that I'm not here... ;)

[Richard English]

Quote "... Funny, I'm getting the strange feeling that I'm not here......"

Whoops:o

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Richard English

Whoops:o At least THAT term translates well on both sides of the pond. No offense taken, Richard.