Twist-tops? What's up w/ that?

[Kiltlifter]

More and more I keep running into good beers that come in a twist top bottle. I'll be the first to admit that I've sort of become a beer snob in that the beer doesn't seem to be quite as good if it comes in a twist top bottle.

Of course there are exceptions to that general "rule" and last night I discovered another. I had a Snipes Mountain Brewery (Proser, WA) Pale Ale and while I enjoyed the beer a lot, I can't reuse the bottle for homebrewing. That's one of the reasons to buy beer ... replace the stock of homebrew containers. :D

So far I've come across 4 good beers that come in the hated twist top:

Sleeman's & Nelson (both breweries from British Columbia)
La Conner & Snipes Mountain (both breweries from WA)

Is it a conspiracy? Are more small breweries going to the twist top bottle? What's the advantage to the brewery (if there is one)?

[steveh]

Capital Brewing beers and Goose Island's come in twist-off bottles, as well as Warsteiner (gasp - German?) now.

I think the "conspiracy" is the result of evolving and better technology, another one of those prejudices from the past being slowly erased - but yeah, it's hell on home brewers.

Next thing you know, they'll tell us twist-off caps are better for wine too! ;)

S.

[toneyc]

Sierra Nevada Pale Ale comes in twist offs, and I think Lagunitas IPA does too, but I don't remember.

:)
Toney.

[fretlessman71]

OK, so NOW the trick is to figure out how the breweries are properly sealing their twist off bottles, and let someone create a system for the homebrewer to do the same. This way we'll never have to make our beer selections based upon "Hmmm... can I reuse that bottle or not?" I couldn't imagine giving up Sierra Nevada just because they use twist off caps. The breweries can make it work; why not homebrewers?

Here's an interesting article (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/wine_cork020806.html) on winemakers who are also going to the screw top bottle cap.

So the next time someone says, "Hey, screw you, buddy!", just raise your beer glass and give him a toast! :)

[brewmonkey]

The bottles seal properly wether they are twist off's or not. The reason they use twist offs and the same reason you really cant reuse them is that they are made with less glass so they cost less to buy. When you are buying glass it can get expensive (the largest expenses a brewery generally has is packaging ie-kegs and bottles). Since they buy buy the truckload and pay by the bottle lets assume 13 pallets on a truck/ 2500 bottles per at 11 cents (thats what I pay) that is $35750 for a truck load (only 104 cases of bottles per pallet) so they will have several truck loads weekly, especially if they are a regional. 1 pallet will bottle about 7 bbls of beer. It takes alot of bottles to run a brewery. Boulevard in KC uses twist tops and runs a 35 bbl system. They have 140 bbl brite tanks (and some 600bbl's). If you have one run of bottles for 140 bbls, that would be 20 pallets per batch. Last year they cranked well over 60,000 bbls.

Now if you buy bottles that need a church key to open there is more glass (they have to be stronger) involved so the cost goes up about 2-3 cents a bottle. That means a 20-30% rise in the cost of the packafe which the brewery is going to pass along to you.

In the end it comes down to economics. We will not put anything into a package we feel will damage it. Watch out in the next few months, you will see your favorite beers coming out in PET Bottles. Several breweries that I know have installed the bottle lines and are test marketing them right now. By going to PET it allows them into some of the venues we could not get into with glass (airlines, ball parks, concerts etc)

[fretlessman71]

Isn't it harder to seal the bottles when they are of the twist off variety? What makes the seal if you can't get good purchase on the lip of the bottle?

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Isn't it harder to seal the bottles when they are of the twist off variety? What makes the seal if you can't get good purchase on the lip of the bottle?

No, the caps seal just fine on them just like any other cap. They would not be used as wide spread as they are if the brewers thought there would be oxidation problems (or any other problems) with them.

Brewers run the bottles through rigorous tests to see what and if any oxygen/contamination has been picked up post packaging.

[Theakston]

Can you still get bottle conditioning in a twist off? Sierra uses them and, as there's usually some yeast on the bottom, I assume that they are bottle conditioned?

On the other hand some of my Belgian cork tops make a bid for freedom just as soon as I loosen the wire off the top. Pretty sure they wouldn't stick around in a twist off, especially if it got warm.

[jsmurphy]

Originally posted by Theakston
Can you still get bottle conditioning in a twist off? Sierra uses them and, as there's usually some yeast on the bottom, I assume that they are bottle conditioned?

According to the label, Sierra is still bottle conditioned with the twist-offs.
I hadn't bought any in quite a while and then my local mkt had 12 packs on sale so I picked some up. Was really suprised at the twist-off, as I was hoping for some new homebrew bottles.

[Kiltlifter]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Now if you buy bottles that need a church key to open there is more glass (they have to be stronger) involved so the cost goes up about 2-3 cents a bottle. That means a 20-30% rise in the cost of the packafe which the brewery is going to pass along to you.

I can understand it if there is a cost savings. Right now I'm looking at two bottles ... one a twistie and one a "regular". The only difference I see is how the cap is attached. You're telling me that forming the threads costs 2-3 cents less than making a smooth round lip?

Just doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

[steveh]

Originally posted by jsmurphy
According to the label, Sierra is still bottle conditioned with the twist-offs.
I hadn't bought any in quite a while and then my local mkt had 12 packs on sale so I picked some up. Was really suprised at the twist-off, as I was hoping for some new homebrew bottles.

I'm pretty sure SN has used twist-off bottles since its beginning - and I seem to recall that because there have never been any SN bottles in my or my (hophead, SN Pale Ale lover) friend's home-brew bottle collection.

Of course, I *had* forgotten it was bottle conditioned until I picked up a six-pack a few weeks ago! Live and re-learn. :/

S.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Kiltlifter
I can understand it if there is a cost savings. Right now I'm looking at two bottles ... one a twistie and one a "regular". The only difference I see is how the cap is attached. You're telling me that forming the threads costs 2-3 cents less than making a smooth round lip?

Just doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

You can only see a difference in the crown type, but there is less glass used in the twist off.

[jsmurphy]

Originally posted by steveh
I'm pretty sure SN has used twist-off bottles since its beginning...


Doh! Chalk one up to lost brain cells. :confused:

[wortchillergoal]

It is amazing some times what seems like more is less. One would think that twist bottles would be harder to make and cost more. Yet, I think the twisties do not affect the product. I just had a Greay's Hampshire Ale out of a teist bottle and it used to be a crown. That beer still tasted wonderful. Infact just thinking about it< i think I'll go have another.

[cyanide]

I use some twist-off bottles for homebrewing, I've had no problems.

[chazwicke]

Hey Brewmonkey, Can you tell us if there is a difference in cost for brown bottles as opposed to green? I still have not figured out why some brewers use green. Is it a cost thing too? Or just marketing?

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Hey Brewmonkey, Can you tell us if there is a difference in cost for brown bottles as opposed to green? I still have not figured out why some brewers use green. Is it a cost thing too? Or just marketing?

One of my hockey buubies makes beer bottles for a living. I'll ask him too. The great thing about that is I get virign bottles from him for my homebrews. Connections can be grand.

[tjones_jr]

interesting, since brown is supposed to help against light stuck beer