Such thing as too much yeast??

[shirteesdotnet]

Im curious if there is such thing as adding too much yeast? My last batch, I had thrown in a liquid yeast, and just in case a packet of beirkeller dry yeast. Was this too much yeast? The beer came out fine, but would too much yeast change the flavor or any other characteristics? THANKS!

[danno]

yes, but you're nowhere near that level. what I'd worry about more than overpitching is getting the flavor profile you wanted. if you pitched, say a liquid wheat yeast, and also a dry ale yeast, for example, you may not get the wheat characteristics you were looking for from the wheat yeast, because the other yeast stole the show...

[Tweek]

Danno, or anyone, do you happen to know what the actual threshold for "too much" yeast? Im just curious what it would take to reach that level.

Thanks.

[Big Cat]

danno is right on.

Yeast impart caricoristics to beer through the production of essters. It is my understanding that esster production happens dering the reprodutive sycle of the yeast. So, in part, the high pitching rate will meen that there are less times that the yeast have to double themselves befor fermentation is compleat and there is no more sugar to consum. That would mean less esster flavor and less of that yeasts quality coming through the end beer.

Good Bad? I guess it depends on what you want. Some of my beers I want the esstery thing goin' and some I want more "cleen."

cheers

[shirteesdotnet]

Interesting, thanks danno. I'll use this info for my next batch. After all that work, I decided to throw in some bierkeller yeast I had, since I hadnt brewed for a while and I didnt want people talking crap about me :)

Lets say I had 2 of the same yeast strains I put into my 5 gal batch. Would this be too much? Or is one of those tubes or packets enough for 5 gallons?

[Mad Scientist]

I think the too much pitching rate is achieved at more than one gallon of slurry per five gallons, or something like that.

[mookow]

Originally posted by Boerne Brew
I think the too much pitching rate is achieved at more than one gallon of slurry per five gallons, or something like that.

I would say one gallon of slurry is definitely overpitching. From what I remember of Reading Designing Great Beers, the brewery rule of thumb for adequate pitching is one pound of yeast slurry per barrel of wort.

[Tweek]

I dont know if it can be quantified like that. It should be rated by active cells perhaps.

The chances of most homebrewers ever coming close to the real number is practically zero.

The reason I asked is because I recently brewed a barleywine and pitched what was enough yeast for 3 barrels into the ten gallon batch. I still dont think that it was too much yeast, but it is definately ripping right along. :)

[mookow]

Originally posted by Tweek
I dont know if it can be quantified like that. It should be rated by active cells perhaps.

The chances of most homebrewers ever coming close to the real number is practically zero.

The reason I asked is because I recently brewed a barleywine and pitched what was enough yeast for 3 barrels into the ten gallon batch. I still dont think that it was too much yeast, but it is definately ripping right along. :)

The number of viable cells in fresh yeast slurry is fairly constant, from what I read in Designing Great Beers. He starts out by quantifying the amount of yeast required per mL, then compares that to the amount of yeast in a given form (dry, liquid, starter, and slurry). Also, the higher the gravity of the wort, the more yeast you need to pitch.

You should be fine unless you threw in enough yeast for 3 barrels of barleywine at the commercial pitching rate. If you did that though, then you may have some problems.

[Tweek]

Im pretty sure I will be fine. I was just curious. And btw, it was enough for 3 commercial barrels of high gravity, but even the commercial guys underpitch so in reality it is not that much.

[mookow]

Originally posted by Tweek
Im pretty sure I will be fine. I was just curious. And btw, it was enough for 3 commercial barrels of high gravity, but even the commercial guys underpitch so in reality it is not that much.

Exactly how much did you pitch?

[Tweek]

ever seen those large white labs bottles? just a little over half of one of those. :D

It will be fine, I was just curious.

[mookow]

Originally posted by Tweek
ever seen those large white labs bottles? just a little over half of one of those. :D

It will be fine, I was just curious.

No, I've never used White Lab's products. I've only used WYeast to this point.

How big are these bottles, and in what form are the yeast? Do the bottles give an overall cell count for the yeast?

[danno]

if the rumors are correct, a commercial tub of White Labs yeast, what pros use, runs about $400... it's a lot of yeast...

[Stodbrew]

Originally posted by danno
if the rumors are correct, a commercial tub of White Labs yeast, what pros use, runs about $400... it's a lot of yeast...


Depends. I get a pitchable quantity that's enough for 21 bbls. of wort. And, yes, its around $400. But I get a lot of use out of that yeast. If you, as a professional brewer, get a 7 bbl. pitchable quantity, its probably quit a bit less.

[mookow]

Originally posted by Stodbrew
Depends. I get a pitchable quantity that's enough for 21 bbls. of wort. And, yes, its around $400. But I get a lot of use out of that yeast. If you, as a professional brewer, get a 7 bbl. pitchable quantity, its probably quit a bit less.

What volume is that tub? And how much does it weigh?

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Tweek
Im pretty sure I will be fine. I was just curious. And btw, it was enough for 3 commercial barrels of high gravity, but even the commercial guys underpitch so in reality it is not that much.

Commercial guys underpitch???

Brewers shoot for the right amount based on the recipe they are brewing, somewhere generally in the 18-21 million cells per mL. Under/Over pitching causes problems with flavor and aroma profiles and no commercial brewers I know would purposely do either.

As for pitching enough for 3bbls in 10USG, you will most certainly have some issues, most likely serious autolysis, which will manifest as a meaty/mealy flavor/aroma or perhaps rubbery in both respects at some point.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by danno
if the rumors are correct, a commercial tub of White Labs yeast, what pros use, runs about $400... it's a lot of yeast...

When I was buying from White Labs I was getting enough to picth 7bbls and it was just under $200 for 1L of slurry. However you will be stepping that up to use across the brewhouse.

When I would re-buy a strain I would pitch it generally in 1 or 2bbls of wort in my Fatboy (21bbl fermenter) and then brew on 3 successive days and knock out on top. It would take 3 days to fill it but when fermentation was complete I would have more then enough of that strain to brew several other batches from which I would obviously harvest and re-pitch.

That one purchase of yeast would last me about 6-7 months at 7-10 batches with that strain per month easily. That's a minimum of 42 batches or so for $200, or about $5 per 7bbl batch in the end. On the higher end it would be about $3 a batch.

Of course the yeast is well cared for and stored properly. Always re-pitched within 48-72 hours of harvest, never stored in a unit where milk or any other dairy product has been kept (or food for that matter) and always has either a few gallons of beer or fresh wort sitting on it.

When needed the yeast would be washed before pitching but if I washed it I would not re-harvest from that tank.

[Tweek]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Commercial guys underpitch???

Brewers shoot for the right amount based on the recipe they are brewing, somewhere generally in the 18-21 million cells per mL. Under/Over pitching causes problems with flavor and aroma profiles and no commercial brewers I know would purposely do either.

As for pitching enough for 3bbls in 10USG, you will most certainly have some issues, most likely serious autolysis, which will manifest as a meaty/mealy flavor/aroma or perhaps rubbery in both respects at some point.

I mispoke a little. It is what White Labs sells as the 7bbl or whatever container. Not built up. So in that respect it is underpitching for the full batch. I would imagine the pros take that container and build it up to where it should be for their batches. But these containers are the equivalent to a multi barrel batch as the little vials are to our homebrew batches.

I still think I will be ok. In actuality I was probably close to what I would need to be for full pitching rate. Time will tell I guess.

[studentofbeer]

to go slightly off topic, but BMs comment about the $400 tube that is reused got me wondering.

im not sure of the property right labs have in their yeast, but are there ever restrictions put on brewers via contract or otherwise about how many generations you can propagate in house before you are supposed to come back and buy more, or do you just use the yeast for as many generations as you see fit until you start worrying about mutations and things? do these labs have concerns about "piracy"? what's to start some other company from just cultivating one of the strains of yeast and setting up their own competing lab?

i guess in the yeast business, unlike the wheat business, it wouldn't be easy to genetically modify the critters to just stop working after a generation like they do with some GM wheat since the whole point of yeast is to divide and i don't see how you could control it. but i do know that there are licensing restrictions placed on farmers who use GM crops that they can't re-plant the seeds next year so they have to keep buying year after year.

i wonder if there is a law review topic in here somewhere...

[brewmonkey]

There are no restrictions on how many generations or what you can do with the yeast, at least none that I ever ran in to from White Labs or any other company that I used.

Most companies carry the same exact strains for the majority of their inventory and then have some various strains that only they house. A lot of the bigger companies also house strains for brewers that only that brewer uses.

When it comes to those strains that only a certain company carries, it would not be difficult for them to prove it is theirs and only their strain. Little thing called mitochondrial DNA would be able to tell them which are which and if a company was stealing their product.

However this community is so small that it is not a problem. Even with the small brewery I was running not including my house strain purchases I was buying at least once a month from the White Labs crew. An excellent product backed by their OUTSTANDING customer service had me sold.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Tweek
I mispoke a little. It is what White Labs sells as the 7bbl or whatever container. Not built up. So in that respect it is underpitching for the full batch. I would imagine the pros take that container and build it up to where it should be for their batches. But these containers are the equivalent to a multi barrel batch as the little vials are to our homebrew batches.

I still think I will be ok. In actuality I was probably close to what I would need to be for full pitching rate. Time will tell I guess.

Was it a 1L container of homebrew slurry or was this a 1L container from White Labs? If so 1L is enough to pitch 5-7bbls if it came from them as it is SUPER concentrated.

While propping up a fresh slurry from White Labs would be ideal it is not needed at that level as the slurry contains enough cells to directly pitch the batch. That is how they produce it for you, unless you are brewing bigger then say 7bbls and are trying to save money. As Stod pointed out he was paying easily double what I was but he also had double the brew length. In that case you would need/want to prop up.

Many a brew sessions would the Fed Ex guy show up an hour before pitching time with my fresh slurry. We would pull it out of the container, clean off the bottle with some vodka and go straight into the fermenter with it, no worries. Generally a 2-12 hour lag time from that pitch and never a bad/stuck fermentation. Even better would be the 2nd generation of that strain, from there on it would just haul ass and if pitching 1lb per bbl rarely was lag time more then 90-120 minutes. The next morning it was like a Krausen factory! Blow off buckets filled to the brim and curd blown all over the brewery. Man I love the smell of CO2, Krausen and Quat!

[Tweek]

yeah it was the 1 liter bottle, but it was actually filled from a fermenter and didnt come straight from WL. so not quite as concentrated as what would probably come from WL, but a nice meaty slurry none the less.

[brewmonkey]

It would be standard slurry then and not even close to what WL would send. In fact, if you pitched only 1L in a 10 USG batch of barleywine I would think perhaps you underpitched depending on the beer it came from. :D


IIRC from my readings...

Ideally you want to harvest and repitch yeast when they are in their ATP phase.

[Tweek]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
It would be standard slurry then and not even close to what WL would send. In fact, if you pitched only 1L in a 10 USG batch of barleywine I would think perhaps you underpitched depending on the beer it came from. :D


IIRC from my readings...

Ideally you want to harvest and repitch yeast when they are in their ATP phase.


lol. This is why I was not worried.