Ale or Lager?

[fretlessman71]

Okay - little more serious this time... you're stranded on an island with a deranged cargo pilot who's willing to make drops of your favorite beers, but not tell anybody where you are... and furthermore, he's only willing to do ales OR lagers for you, but not both. Once you pick, you're stuck. All other factors are normal - passable living conditions, methods for getting beer as cold as you want, proper glassware is available etc., etc. In other words, it's your wildest dream come true, save for one thing:

Is it going to be Ales, or Lagers?

Hope this does it for you, champ. :)

[champ]

awesome! science!

[steveh]

A reason for your pick would make this an interesting thread. My reason was only to balance the scale - I'd have to get picky and start asking just what brands I was choosing from.

This debate has gone on for years and I still haven't heard a solid argument why Ale is better than Lager - or vice versa.

S.

[BadDogNoBiskit]

Will be drinking a Belgian Ale in 1 hr 13 min. Yes Im counting down.

[Dextolen]

I like more ale styles than lager styles, simple enough.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Dextolen
I like more ale styles than lager styles

For example? And don't go overboard for the sake of the thread, maybe just your top 4.

S.

[lordkenpo]

1. Dubbel
2. IPA
3. Stout
4. way too many in tie for 4th

The only lager I drink routinely is Pilsner. Even the Bock styles I love are ales.


Still, this poll is biased against Lambics, and for that, I'm boycotting. ;)

[fretlessman71]

For me, I chose ales simply because I can find several ales that remind me of lagers, but the reverse isn't really true for me. Either way, I'd be kind of heartbroken - I'd really miss my Oktos in the fall and my Doppelbocks in the winter!

[lordkenpo]

I concur on the ales that remind me of lagers, but not vice versa. But I've yet to find an Oktoberfest that I genuinely enjoy (they all taste like leaves to me; pumpkin ales, on the other hand, are fantastic), or a Doppel that stands up to a Weiss, Eis, or Weizen Bock. Sorry lager, you're just too boring and limited in variety for me, not to mention you take entirely too damned long to brew.

[fretlessman71]

Yikes - Dem's FIGHTIN' words! (steveh, take it easy, now... down, boy... that's good... take a sip of your Capital... there you go.)

I want you to go out and purchase yourself a few favors - the first one is Ayinger Celebrator Doppelbock, the second is Spaten Optimator, and the third is Paulaner Oktoberfest (the German Oktos are ENTIRELY different, so much so that I'm not interested in the American varieties anymore). And if you want a REAL surprise, get a 6-pack of Paulaner Original Munich - in CANS, no less - and see what the BMC crowd only WISHES they could taste like. Methinks you'll have a better opinion of lagers after this little experiment - don't let American crap beer taint your view of a fine beverage!

But I still like ales better, what with having a gun pointed at my head and all... ;)

[lordkenpo]

Had 'em all, and was using them in comparison. The Pilsners I referred to are Victory Prima and Tupper's Hop Pocket (both of which, I love). Not BMC...blech. Upon my beer store guy's insistence, and because he gave it to me for free (after having the same argument), I recently tried the Ayinger Marzen Okto, and still came away unimpressed. Just burnt leaves.

It's not that I don't understand what lagers are aiming for, it's just that I find them, by and large, more bland than ales. You can tell me all day how crisp and clean your lager is, but I'm still going to side with a big, rounded, bitter, dirty ale. Just my opinion!

[fretlessman71]

Well, I hope you have one just like it waiting for me when I sit down next to you at the bar. :)

You tried even the Celebrator? Never met anyone who had it who didn't love it.... whoa...

[lordkenpo]

Aww man, now I come off sounding like a jerk. No, I do dig Celebrator and Optimator fine (much better than the Oktos, actually), I just won't choose them over a Victory Moonglow or an Aventinus Eis. Oktoberfests are the only lagers (besides BMC) I would say that I actually have a distaste for, but that's only a matter of preference. I know plenty of people who love them.

Actually, come to think of it, and I don't know how it's classified, but Frohe Weinachten (sp?) is one of the best beers, let alone lagers, that I've ever had. If they didn't charge my cargo pilot $7 per bottle, I'd be waiting for that airdrop every week like a baby bird waiting for his mama.

[fretlessman71]

This what you had in mind? http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/4216/15086/

And no, you don't come off sounding like a jerk - you like ales, as do most of the people on the board, myself included. But I just bought a bottle of this stuff (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/412/2409/) and I can't wait for an opportunity to try it!

Basically, when I don't like a style much (like wheats and hefes), I just keep trying different versions over and over until I find one that I DO like. I just keep thinking that I'm missing something otherwise. :)

[lordkenpo]

Yep, that's the one. Man, I'm almost salivating just thinking about it. Hopefully my new beer guy will get some in this winter.

And generally, I'm the same way with trying stuff over and over. My beef with Oktos goes back a bit though. I bought a case of Spaten Oktoberfest at my former beer store last November, after the owner insisted it was one of the best beers he'd ever had. It's hard to say, but I actually couldn't stand it. I had trouble finishing a 6-pack, let alone the entire case. So that really cemented my Okto distaste. Fast forward to now, and my new beer store guy insists Ayinger is the way to go. I didn't dislike it as much, but I still didn't get it. Which is the way I've felt about others I've tried, but can't remember the names of. I've probably tried 10 or so different styles of Oktoberfest, and the only one I've really enjoyed, I brewed myself. At ale temperatures, no less.

[steveh]

Originally posted by lordkenpo
But I've yet to find an Oktoberfest that I genuinely enjoy (they all taste like leaves to me; pumpkin ales, on the other hand, are fantastic)

Well, I can tell we're polar opposites: I can't stand pumpkin beers - blech. OTOH Spaten Okto is my most favorite brew to drink - confirmed this year. Paulaner is okay, but too dry - and I don't know what the heck is happening with HP anymore. AFA US micro Oktos, we've been covering that at a Tasting Notes thread - I could understand if you weren't too hep on them.

But pumpkin? In beer?

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by lordkenpo
1. Dubbel
2. IPA
3. Stout
4. way too many in tie for 4th

1. Try a nice blonde Doppelbock (a real bock)
2. Try a Pilsner Urquell (find it unskunked), the hoppiest Pils around
3. Try a Schwarzbier, roasty and smooth
4. Me too.

Though I will say that I enjoy all your picks too - and agree on Lambics.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by lordkenpo
It's not that I don't understand what lagers are aiming for, it's just that I find them, by and large, more bland than ales. You can tell me all day how crisp and clean your lager is, but I'm still going to side with a big, rounded, bitter, dirty ale.

But see, Ales *aren't* rounded, they're unkempt, confusing, and often different from bottle to bottle - that's what makes up their character.

Lagers *are* rounded, mellowed, and yet can still have flavor profiles that satisfy - not just fight against the other flavors for your attention.

I haven't tried Ayniger Okto since last year, and was unimpressed then (I hear it's better this year), but I'm guessing the character you're picking up is more of a toasted bread flavor - I've never tasted anything burnt in a (proper) Oktoberfest.

I've said it before, I'll continue to pontificate: Ales are in your face, more often than not. (good)Lagers are more sublime, yet the flavors are so very good when you learn to recognize them.

S.

[fretlessman71]

Yeah - kind of like how the Grateful Dead are an acquired taste. ;)

(JUST KIDDING DEADHEADS... well, not really...)

[lordkenpo]

That's so funny. My brewbuddy feels the same way about Oktoberfest vs. Pumpkin Ales. For the past 2 or 3 years, we both couldn't wait for Fall, for entirely different reasons. However, we both agree on the Oktoberfest kit from our homebrew shop - very nice, especially when brewed a little warmer.

By blonde doppel, are you referring to just a light colored doppel such as Troegs? Not a huge fan, but then, I've yet to try any authentic German versions. Oh, and I definitely dig the Urquell, but as you say, it's hard to find unskunked. So much so that I hardly even trust my specialty beer stores enough to buy it regularly.

As for the Schwarzbier, I've heard quite a bit about it recently, but been unable to find any commercially. Any in particular I should look out for?

[fretlessman71]

Gotta get your Pilsner Urquell in the light sealed 12 packs. It's the only way, and well worth it. :)

[lordkenpo]

I think we have different definitions of rounded. Where you see confusion, I see blending and teamwork. With lagers, it's very easy to pick separate the malt from the hops, with ales, it's not always that simple. The best ales play this out fully, and don't try to exhibit one characteristic over the other. Even in IPAs, where hop characters often dominate, the best ones are almost mysterious in their rounded personalities. Dogfish's 60 Minute, while damn hoppy, has a biscuity malt that somehow rounds out the crispness of the hops. Bear Republic's Racer 5 and Three Floyd's Alpha King are just flat-out unbelievable in how the floral, sweet, and bitter qualities match up. They're not fighting for recognition, they're just not standing apart, like lagers.

So again, to each his own.

[steveh]

Originally posted by lordkenpo
By blonde doppel, are you referring to just a light colored doppel such as Troegs?

Capital Blonde (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/368/2963/) . Blonde Doppels aren't as prominent as Dark Doppels, but still very good. Not sure how the Cap compares to the Troegs.

As for the Schwarzbier, I've heard quite a bit about it recently, but been unable to find any commercially. Any in particular I should look out for?

Köstritzer (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/648/1774/) is probably the most popular here in the States, also look for a Bohemian version under the Herold label.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by lordkenpo
They're not fighting for recognition, they're just not standing apart, like lagers.

Lagers are, historically and traditionally, more balanced. It's not a separation issue, it *is* a blending issue, as you say of the Ales.

Pick up any book by Jackson or Eckhardt for study on flavor and aroma characteristics, you'll see where I'm basing my thoughts.

But yes, that is not to say Lagers are better than Ales, or vice versa - diversity in styles is what it's all about

...and I love DFH 60 Min. It's the most balanced of their ales - and remember that biscuit flavor, that's the flavor you should pick up in a good Bavarian lager - smoother and richer due to decoction mashing and cold storage.

S.

[HogieWan]

I've had one schwarzbier, the name started with an "e", but I can't remember it. It was so damn good, my first attempt at a lager will probably be a schwarzbier

[chazwicke]

The point is that we should all be glad we don't have to choose between the two. I know plenty of balanced ales and some sublime lagers. And I DO like lambics except the sweet ones. I can find good beers in almost any style these days. I'm partial to English cask conditioned beers, Flanders Reds and I love this time of year for the GERMAN oktoberfests. As for burnt leaves I'm not sure I have tasted it in Oktoberfests but I also adore some of the German Rauchs. As for Oktoberfests, This year I think I liked the Paulaner best but Spaten is very close and posting to this thread has made me thirsty so I'll be grabbing one of the last Spatens in my office fridge. But I'd really like it on vom foss.

[HogieWan]

Haven't got the Spaten yet this year. I liked the Paulaner as usual. I found SA's Octo to be decent.

I bought a sixer each of Paulaner, Sam Adams and Abita's octoberfests and the wife asks, "how come you got just beer that I like this time?" Maybe I'm figuring her taste buds out. Maybe she just likes Oktos

[fretlessman71]

See, Hogie, this is why your marriage is going to last forever - you are growing to be as one! :)

[HogieWan]

She's still not totally with me on the kegerator, but she's coming around

[wortchillergoal]

I voted ale as I can harvest yeast yeast from bottle, force it to mutate and create a lager yeast, and then I will brewe my own.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by HogieWan
She's still not totally with me on the kegerator, but she's coming around

Are you kidding?! When I told my wife I was thinking of buying my kegerator - she said "You should do it." And she is a non drinker. I think she was just being practical actually. She knew I was gonna get it anyway and it eliminated the need for the big marine cooler full of different beers on our balcony at the beach. And the need to keep it filled with Ice and the task of draining it every weekend. The Bev Air just made too much sense.

[steveh]

Originally posted by HogieWan
I found SA's Octo to be decent.

I keep forgetting to revisit that one - tried it early on and liked it. My local still hasn't gotten it for their Sam-Tap. Hmm.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by wortchillergoal
I voted ale as I can harvest yeast yeast from bottle, force it to mutate and create a lager yeast, and then I will brewe my own.

Um, Doctor Frankenstein? We need to talk... :eek:

S.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Are you kidding?!

she just wants full design veto power (which I'm okay with) and the expense is a bit much right now. Hopefully, before the end of winter, I'll be putting my ll grain batches into my custom kegerator.

[chazwicke]

How are you gonna convince her you need a kegerator and a trip to London?

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by chazwicke
How are you gonna convince her you need a kegerator and a trip to London?

I'm working on that

[steveh]

For everyone to keep an eye out for.

Drinking an Ayinger Jahrhundert right now, haven't had one in some time and one of my locals had some singles. I think this one would impress a lot of Ale drinkers with its complexity and balance between hops and malts. Although it's still a true Lager in the smoothness of the malt flavor that comes through.

Here are (http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3224&highlight=Ayinger) my notes from a year and a half ago. The only change I'd make in sampling this bottle would be more hop character in the flavor. Different recipe? Old bottle? Can't say, but still very good.

A bit more expensive from this store than the other in my old review, but that store always has good deals.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by lordkenpo
My beef with Oktos goes back a bit though. I bought a case of Spaten Oktoberfest at my former beer store last November, after the owner insisted it was one of the best beers he'd ever had. It's hard to say, but I actually couldn't stand it. I had trouble finishing a 6-pack, let alone the entire case.

Okay, re-reading some of these past posts and I just have to say, you're weird! ;)

Do you enjoy a good ESB? Because the Munich Okto (especially the Spaten variety, IMO) is the German cousin of the English style. Don't know if you were drinking it too cold or if your store owner was passing off some old cases, but Spaten Okto is my favorite beer - and I really like a wide variety of good brews, and been drinking 'em for over 20 years.

I shudder to think what may have happened to the rest of that case, I kept 4 going in my garage from October to July one year!

S.

[MeridianFC]

Decisions like this bring me to my knees. I voted ale for the simple reason that there are more styles of ale so more variety. But if I pick 10 great/favorite beers off the top of my head I could easily make it a 50/50 mix:

Andechser Dunkel
Harviestoun Bitter & Twisted
Brooklyn Pilsner
Anchor Our Special Ale
Tupper's Hop Pocket Pils
Caledonian Deuchars IPA
Augustiner Helles
Saison Dupont
Paulaner Oktoberfest
Hambleton Back In A Flash

There that took all of 30 seconds.

[fretlessman71]

It's a tough question - it's like saying, you're going to clone the NE Patriots one by one and have them play a game against each other. Belicheck is going to coach one team; who are you going to pick to coach the other?

Purely hypothetical, but interesting nonetheless. :)

[Sladek]

I guess all bottom-fermenting yeasts would have become extinct if I chose ale. If I can have cask-conditioned, I'll go for ale.

[HarkJohnny]

because I've never had an IPA that was a lager! :D

[lordkenpo]

Originally posted by steveh
I shudder to think what may have happened to the rest of that case, I kept 4 going in my garage from October to July one year!

No worries, Steveh, I finished it. After all, there are sober kids in Japan. I split the case with my roomate who disliked it as much as, if not more than, me. So, I suppose there's every possibility it was just an old, poorly handled case, though the store typically maintains a pretty decent turnover. I dunno, I'd like to revisit a 6-pack just to get a second opinion, but I'd be worried about the effect of light on the green bottles. I bought the whole case specifically because I knew it wouldn't be light-struck.

I refuse to buy Newcastle for the same reason - I've never had 2 bottles that tasted the same, and I have no way of knowing how it's "supposed" to taste.

Oh, and what would you classify as a "good" ESB for comparison?

[Mad Scientist]

Ale, ale, ale, ale......

[steveh]

Originally posted by lordkenpo
Oh, and what would you classify as a "good" ESB for comparison?

Simply put, Fuller's.

S.

Boerne, you really need some variety in your life. ;)

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by steveh
Simply put, Fuller's.

S.

Boerne, you really need some variety in your life. ;)

Lemme try again:

India Pale ALE
Imeprial India Plae ALE
Pale ALE
Amber ALE
Stout ALE
Brown ALE
Old ALE
Blonde ALE
Kolsch ALE

Need I go on....

[steveh]

Originally posted by Boerne Brew
Kolsch ALE

Funny, that's a *lagered* ale. :D

BTW - Amber and blonde aren't true styles.

S.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by steveh
Funny, that's a *lagered* ale. :D

BTW - Amber and blonde aren't true styles.

S.

I know annd agree...they just taste good....better than a lager, in my book

[steveh]

Originally posted by Boerne Brew
I know annd agree...they just taste good....better than a lager, in my book

Try an "amber" ale next to a Spaten or Paulaner Oktoberfest (which also taste very good).

S.

[beerking]

It's gotta be ale, but only because most Belgians are ales. Take out the Belgians, and it would be a toss up!

Beerking

[chazwicke]

Great to see you posting Beerking. Welcome to the board! Guys, Beerking here is a Certified Beer judge and has judged lots of beers all over the country including in Alaska. I'm glad he has joined us on the board.

[fretlessman71]

Beerking, you sucker! I can't believe Chaz got you to fall for this - didn't he tell you that all newbies have to send a bottle of homebrew to everyone with more than 1000 posts? Details, details.... but welcome anyway... ;)

[beerking]

Thanks for the intro, Cahz, although actually, it is National beer judge, not Certified (passed that rank years ago).

Several posts on this thread have mentioned the number of ales that taste like lager, and hence the choice of ale. This is somewhat confusing <g>, since I have yet to find an ale that actually tastes like a lager. I have been given several ales and told they were lagers (Otter Creek Oktoberfest, for instance. The label states "ale" in very small print, even though it is called an Oktoberfest), and have always picked out the additional fruitiness immediately.

Beerking

[steveh]

Originally posted by beerking
Several posts on this thread have mentioned the number of ales that taste like lager, and hence the choice of ale. This is somewhat confusing <g>, since I have yet to find an ale that actually tastes like a lager.

Pick up some Smithwick's. I took a first taste out of a recent glassful and thought sure it was really a lager.

There are also some very light APAs out there that can pass as German-style Pilsners. Not *good* German-style Pils, mind you, but still palatable.

S.

[beerking]

I've had the Smithwicks. It is far to fruity for me to think it might be a lager.

[steveh]

Originally posted by beerking
I've had the Smithwicks. It is far to fruity for me to think it might be a lager.

Bottle or tap? The last six pack I sampled had no esters at all - nose or flavor.

S.

[beerking]

I have had Smithwick's both on tap, and in the widget can. Don't get me wrong, I like Smithwick's a lot. It's just that I could never be fooled into thiniking it might be a lager.

Then again, my palate is trained to pick up things like that. It is one of the complaints brewers sometimes have about judges: "All they do is find flaws." While there is an element of truth to that, I hope I myself have grown beyond jsut picking flaws in what I judge.

Being as trained at judging and perceiving beer as I am can be a curse. There have been times when all around me were happily enjoying a beer that I found significantly flawed. If you don't know what you are looking for, you may never find it.

If I point out the flaw, most can pick it up, at which point they are less enamoured with whatever they were originally drinking. Ignorance truly is bliss.

I think Chaz has probably seen this happen before.

[steveh]

Originally posted by beerking
I have had Smithwick's both on tap, and in the widget can. It's just that I could never be fooled into thiniking it might be a lager.

Try the bottle, it was very clean for an ale and unfortunately not as malty as a good lager can be. I'm comfortable enough to say Smithwick's isn't one of my favorites.

Then again, my palate is trained to pick up things like that...I hope I myself have grown beyond jsut picking flaws in what I judge.

That's certainly key. It's where the overall assessment comes into play in judging. One beer in a group may be far from an Oktoberfest and the agreed upon characteristics, but if it's the closest of the group it wins!

When judging Imperial Stouts at the Great Lakes Brew Fest this year, my fellow judge and I were growing concerned that there would be no good ones out of 6 and would have to decide on one of the poor examples - fortunately there were 2 great ones waiting.

If you don't know what you are looking for, you may never find it.

If I point out the flaw, most can pick it up, at which point they are less enamoured with whatever they were originally drinking. Ignorance truly is bliss.

That's what makes reviewing beers on-line difficult, if no one knows the characteristics of, say, the great melanoidin flavors in a good German, double decoction lager, it's difficult to describe to them what that is.

S.

[corkybstewart]

I'ld have to go with the ales. The island would probably be hot so the lagers would underwhelm me. Also I think(could be wrong)there are more ale styles and variability

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
I'ld have to go with the ales. The island would probably be hot so the lagers would underwhelm me. Also I think(could be wrong)there are more ale styles and variability

Not wrong.

[steveh]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
the island would probably be hot so the lagers would underwhelm me.

I dunno, England's an island... waitaminnit...

Also I think(could be wrong)there are more ale styles and variability

Depends on your definition of "variability." Pretty big variables between a Munich Helles, a California Common, a Schwartzbier, and a Doppelbock.

'Bout the same variables between a Bitter, an ESB, a Porter, and a Barleywine - you ask me. ;)

S.