Reducing headspace in a fermenter

[mookow]

I was in my LHBS and was looking to pick up a pair of 2.8 gallon carboys, thinking I could run an experiment with adding different fruits/flavoring to my beers in a scientific fashion. I was planning to make 5.5gal batches, ferment them in primary in a 6.5gal carboy, then rack to the 2.8's, one with fruit, one without, giving me a control group and an experimental group.

To make a long story short, they said that they hadn't seen 2.8gal carboys in a long time, but they had some 3 gallon carboys. I didnt think a half gallon of headspace in my primary fermenter would be adequate without resorting to a blow off tube. But the clerk mentioned that sometimes, when he was making wine, he would add some sanitized glass marbles to his fermenter if he had too much headspace. Would this work for beer in the situation of a secondary fermenter? Or would the yeast settle on top of the marbles and thus rob me of some beer?

Finally, would any of you guys mind suggesting a wheat beer recipe that I could use when I rack this beer (http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8470) to secondary? I'd like to pour my new beer right on top of the yeast cake from my current beer, thus saving the $6 I would have to spend on liquid yeast. FWIW, I'm going to be using my Munton's Wheat LME, which is a 55% wheat, 45% barley mix. The yeast I am currently using is WYeast German Wheat (#3333).

[denver brewhoo]

i don't think that extra .2 gallons of head space in the 3 gallon carboys is gonna make enough difference that I would buy and sanitize the marbles necessary to remove it.

I mean we're talking less than a quart. Or rather, "less space than a quart of water would occupy". Am I missing something?

[denver brewhoo]

Oh and how about a weizenbock, for the beer on top of your yeast cake? I just bottled one that was 11 gallons and the all-grain recipe was 18 lbs of wheat, 10 lbs of light munich, 5 lbs of dark munich, 3/4 lb caramel wheat, 3/4 lb caramunich and 1/4 lb chocolate wheat. divide it in half and figure out how much of that DME you're using is the equivalent of the 14 lbs of wheat and light munich in my recipe...probably about 10 pounds, isn't it? (somehwere there's a conversion chart, maybe in Papazian)

I will say that I would double the chocolate wheat if I did this again--so for a 5.5 gal batch, you should use the quarter pound I mention above.

Or--stupid me--just go to beertools and look for weizenbock recipes for extract brewers.

[HogieWan]

Now I'm wondering - would the trub go in between the marbles? Would this make it easier to rack from on top of trub and get just clear beer?

[mookow]

Originally posted by HogieWan
Now I'm wondering - would the trub go in between the marbles? Would this make it easier to rack from on top of trub and get just clear beer?

Depending on the price of marbles, I may be willing to experiment.

[Fast_Eddy]

I lost my marbles :(

[sallad]

you don't need to worry too much about head space. you don't want your beer to mix with oxygen, but the beer will have some co2 in it, and that - being heavier than o2 - will form a barrier. just rack gently and try not to shake things up too much.

also, if you have a kegging setup, you can put a shot of co2 in there when you start to flush out the o2.

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by Fast_Eddy
I lost my marbles :(

Hey, that's my line, after all I am the goalie here,

[mookow]

Originally posted by sallad
you don't need to worry too much about head space. you don't want your beer to mix with oxygen, but the beer will have some co2 in it, and that - being heavier than o2 - will form a barrier. just rack gently and try not to shake things up too much.

also, if you have a kegging setup, you can put a shot of co2 in there when you start to flush out the o2.

Cool, that pretty well eliminates the original reason to toss marbles in there. But the idea of the trub settling between the marbles still intrigues me.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by wortchillergoal
Hey, that's my line, after all I am the goalie here,

yes - it's implied. You didn't need to say it.

[brewmonkey]

A shot of CO2 is the best bet and it is how pubs fill the "dead space" prior to racking to any tank. If you have a kegging setup or even just some CO2 you should be purging air from your carboys/kegs each time prior to racking.

It is simple. On a low pressure setting (say 5lbs) just dose the space for a minute or so before racking and you have created that blanket of CO2 to protect your beer.

[mookow]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
A shot of CO2 is the best bet and it is how pubs fill the "dead space" prior to racking to any tank. If you have a kegging setup or even just some CO2 you should be purging air from your carboys/kegs each time prior to racking.

It is simple. On a low pressure setting (say 5lbs) just dose the space for a minute or so before racking and you have created that blanket of CO2 to protect your beer.

The problem with that is that I do not have any CO2, and I'm working my way through college, so I'm generally broke or close to it. How much is a kegging setup, and how much is it just for a CO2 tank and a regulator?

[HogieWan]

don't wprry bout the co2. That's the paranoid approach which, while helpful, is far from necessary. Many awards haev been won with lazier/cheaper methods.

[mookow]

OK, this looks like my recipe:
5.5 gallon batch
8lbs Munton's wheat LME
2lbs Amber DME (maybe 3, I havent quite decided)
2lbs Crystal 20L
.3lbs Chocolate Malt
.3lbs German Caraffe
2oz Fuggles pellets
1oz Cascade @5 minutes
1oz undecided @ two minutes
1oz undecided hop tea in secondary

[BrewDog]

Mookow-

I ran your Wheat beer recipe through Promash as-is.
I added an oz of Willamette at 2 and an oz of Cascade (dry) to fill in for the 2 unidentified aroma additions:

3 things:
1) it's way too big: by style, it should be <1.050, yours is 1.081
2) it's way too dark: by style, it should be SRM 8 (golden yellow-light amber), Yours is 22 (very dark brown almost black like a porter).
3) the IBU's are a little high, but not too bad. (per style is 17, yours is 24)


============================================

Mookow's Wheat

A ProMash Recipe Report

AHA Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

06-C American-style Ale, American Wheat

Min OG: 1.030 Max OG: 1.050
Min IBU: 12 Max IBU: 17
Min Clr: 2 Max Clr: 8 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Extract (Lbs): 12.60
Anticipated OG: 1.081 Plato: 19.64
Anticipated SRM: 22.5
Anticipated IBU: 24.6
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 6.47 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.069 SG 16.87 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Mosher
Hop IBU Formula Used: Garetz

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
63.5 8.00 lbs. Muntons LME - Wheat England 1.037 3
15.9 2.00 lbs. Muntons DME - Amber England 1.046 17
15.9 2.00 lbs. Crystal 20L America 1.035 20
2.4 0.30 lbs. Chocolate Malt America 1.029 350
2.4 0.30 lbs. Carafa Germany 1.030 400

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.00 oz. Fuggle Pellet 4.75 24.6 60 min.
1.00 oz. Cascade Pellet 5.75 0.0 5 min.
1.00 oz. Willamette Pellet 4.00 0.0 2 min.
1.00 oz. Cascade Whole 5.75 0.0 Dry Hop


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.50 Tsp Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1010 American Wheat


==============================================

Here is a version that comes closer to meeting style guidelines:


Mookow's Wheat

A ProMash Recipe Report

AHA Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

06-C American-style Ale, American Wheat

Min OG: 1.030 Max OG: 1.050
Min IBU: 12 Max IBU: 17
Min Clr: 2 Max Clr: 8 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Extract (Lbs): 7.06
Anticipated OG: 1.050 Plato: 12.30
Anticipated SRM: 9.0
Anticipated IBU: 17.8
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 6.47 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.042 SG 10.52 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Mosher
Hop IBU Formula Used: Garetz

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
46.9 3.31 lbs. Muntons LME - Wheat England 1.037 3
38.9 2.75 lbs. Muntons DME - Amber England 1.046 17
14.2 1.00 lbs. Crystal 20L America 1.035 20

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.25 oz. Fuggle Pellet 4.75 17.8 60 min.
1.00 oz. Cascade Pellet 5.75 0.0 5 min.
1.00 oz. Willamette Pellet 4.00 0.0 2 min.
1.00 oz. Cascade Whole 5.75 0.0 Dry Hop


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.50 Tsp Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1010 American Wheat

[mookow]

Originally posted by BrewDog
Mookow-

I ran your Wheat beer recipe through Promash as-is.
I added an oz of Willamette at 2 and an oz of Cascade (dry) to fill in for the 2 unidentified aroma additions:

3 things:
1) it's way too big: by style, it should be <1.050, yours is 1.081
2) it's way too dark: by style, it should be SRM 8 (golden yellow-light amber), Yours is 22 (very dark brown almost black like a porter).
3) the IBU's are a little high, but not too bad. (per style is 17, yours is 24)


============================================

Mookow's Wheat

A ProMash Recipe Report

AHA Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

06-C American-style Ale, American Wheat

[B]Min OG: 1.030 Max OG: 1.050
Min IBU: 12 Max IBU: 17
Min Clr: 2 Max Clr: 8 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Extract (Lbs): 12.60
Anticipated OG: 1.081 Plato: 19.64
Anticipated SRM: 22.5
Anticipated IBU: 24.6
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 6.47 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.069 SG 16.87 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Mosher
Hop IBU Formula Used: Garetz

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
63.5 8.00 lbs. Muntons LME - Wheat England 1.037 3
15.9 2.00 lbs. Muntons DME - Amber England 1.046 17
15.9 2.00 lbs. Crystal 20L America 1.035 20
2.4 0.30 lbs. Chocolate Malt America 1.029 350
2.4 0.30 lbs. Carafa Germany 1.030 400

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.00 oz. Fuggle Pellet 4.75 24.6 60 min.
1.00 oz. Cascade Pellet 5.75 0.0 5 min.
1.00 oz. Willamette Pellet 4.00 0.0 2 min.
1.00 oz. Cascade Whole 5.75 0.0 Dry Hop


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.50 Tsp Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----
WYeast 1010 American Wheat


I re-read the thread, and I was not being clear as to my current intentions. I'm going to be making a weizenbock as denver brewhoo suggested, and though I wasnt too sure of it, looking at the original Promash report you laid out, it almost looks like I will be within style. My hops schedule has changed, however, which may bring me out of style (http://www.bjcp.org/styles04/Category15.html#style15C) due to having a bit of hop flavor/aroma in it. My final recipe is also going to have less Crystal in it.
Final (I think) recipe:
3oz Saaz 3.2% @ 60min
1oz Fuggles 4.0% @ 7.5min
I'm considering tossing some Cascades in here for flavor/aroma, but thinking I wont. I've only got an ounce on hand, in any event.

8# Munton's Wheat LME
1.25# Crystal 20L
2.5# Munton's Amber DME
.3 Debittered black patent
.3 chocolate malt

Yeast will be the WYeast #3333 yeast cake left over from my current wheat beer.

I am interested in brewing the beer you outlined... it will likely be my next wheat beer. But I'd like to give you a big "thanks!" for making a Promash session for me :)