Woman cleared of selling to minor charge

[YamahaXS]

I am glad for this woman. Sounds like the police have some explaining to do.


article (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-pentrapment31aug31,0,901776.story?coll=sfla-news-palm)

[chazwicke]

That 6 ft 175lb officer was two months shy of 21. That apparently means that his body will automatically be able to handle alcohol better in exactly two months. And on Sept 21, the first day of Fall, all the leaves will automatically change color and begin to fall from the trees.

[YamahaXS]

perhaps we should write a paper for the journal of irreproducible results!

proposed title:
Step Functions in Alcohol Tolerance Between 250 and 252 Months in Male Homo Sapiens

[newportstorm]

Sh*t happens. Clerks should pay better attention. Their liquor license may depend on it someday.

So what if the officer was 20, yet looked older. In HS, I was 6', 170lbs. Yet I was carded nearly every time I tried to buy some swill. The beer gods were doing me a favor.

Cheers!

[YamahaXS]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Sh*t happens. Clerks should pay better attention. Their liquor license may depend on it someday.

So what if the officer was 20, yet looked older. In HS, I was 6', 170lbs. Yet I was carded nearly every time I tried to buy some swill. The beer gods were doing me a favor.

Cheers!


The point is (IMO) that the police had structured a sting that could catch people who had no criminal intent. If they want to catch people who sell to minors then they should consider getting a more 'minor' looking undercover agent.

[fretlessman71]

All the same, I agree with Newport; part of the point is to MAKE the point that there are those who don't pay attention, and others who will try to get away with whatever they can, regardless of the sanity of "the letter of the law". Of course, she did attempt to card him; I suppose her contention that she mistook an 8 for a 6 is the only plausible explanation. In that case, I recommend the clerk buys a new pair of glasses and a magnifying glass.

[chazwicke]

The main point in my mind is that we re educate Americans about drinking. And lower the age to 18. I have always thought that the consistantcy issue on drinking, draft age, tried as adult, voting, ect. ages should all be the same. I, for the record, think drivers licenses should be 18 as well. I'm not really concerned if an almost 21 year old buys a beer. I refrain from allowing my 18 year old son to sample my beers in a brewpub because I would not want to endanger the establishments liquor licence. But he is free to drink a beer at home when he wishes. Which is occasionally.

[fretlessman71]

I also agree with you chaz - drinking age should be 18. But that's sort of a different issue - the lady should have been paying more attention. And I'm sure she will from now on.

Wouldn't it be a sight if all the 18-20 year olds in the country picked a day and walked into liquor stores demanding to be sold alcohol as a form of protest? I wonder what the country would do about THAT....? :)

[Stodbrew]

I worked at a liquor store in college and the ABC was doing a sting on pretty much every establishment in town. One night I was working and a car drove into the parking lot. Driving was a young looking girl and in the passenger seat was a much older man. She parked where he could still see into the store and she came in alone. She put a 12 pack of bud light on the counter. Of course, I carded her. She was a mere 5 days away from turning 21. Told her I couldn't sell to her. As she was leaving, I told her to tell her ABC friend out in the car I said hello. The look on her face was priceless. As they were leaving, he was staring at me so I waved goodbye.

Bottom line is, I was a dick who would card almost everyone. Especially in a college town like Chico.

[fretlessman71]

Doesn't make you a dick - makes you someone who cared about his job. I had to card people working as a server, and I tried to be cute about it - "You'd like a beer? Oh, okay - did you bring your permission slip?" ;)

[chazwicke]

I agree that laws should be obeyed even if it is one day from the birthday.

[wortchillergoal]

My view on this wanders. People have to make judgement calls in any job. Sending a person who could pass for 21 to me seems a waste. If you want to see who is selling to minors, send in a minor that looks such. Still, since the law is 21, you had better be damn sure of your judgement if you are not going to ask for id.

Everyone also makes mistakes. Even if she needs new glasses, I feel she tried to act within the spirit of the law.

The way around this is to do what my employer does, card every single person. Everyone is carded inculding employees that are known by the cashier to be over 21. This seems to cause problems too though. Many of my hockey buddies will not purchase beer from my employer as they don't want to have to show thier id. We are talking guys in their mid 30s and up. I can't understand what the hassle is to have to show your id. I understand that carding everyone is becoming a common practice.

[corkybstewart]

Out here in New Mexico clerks card everyone regardless of age-I'm 49 with a gray beard and I still get carded. If you re with a group, everyone gets carded and everyone has to be over 21. In Texas recently I tried to buy a sixpack and was denied because I didn't have a Texas ID, which apparently is the law. What utter BS

[haaseg]

I agree... It would be different if she didn't ask for the license and just sold him the 4-pack, but she actually asked him for identification.

I don't care how good you are... everyone makes mistakes. You look at some date on a card and you're doing the mental math in your head, and you know August in your mind and you see 6 on the card, and somehow 1+3=2 in this case.

I know there have been several Wednesdays that I could have swore were Tuesdays, etc.

My point is... no matter how good the system is, there will always be human error on some level. I'm glad the point of criminal intent set her free.

[fretlessman71]

Still, since the law is 21, you had better be damn sure of your judgement if you are not going to ask for id. Precisely why they sent in someone who could go either way.

Everyone also makes mistakes. Even if she needs new glasses, I feel she tried to act within the spirit of the law. As do I, and apparently the judge, too, who let her off.

The way around this is to do what my employer does, card every single person. Everyone is carded inculding employees that are known by the cashier to be over 21. This seems to cause problems too though. Many of my hockey buddies will not purchase beer from my employer as they don't want to have to show thier id. We are talking guys in their mid 30s and up. I can't understand what the hassle is to have to show your id. I understand that carding everyone is becoming a common practice. The way I explained it to people is that it's not that we don't think you're over 21, it's that we can't serve to anyone who doesn't have their ID on their person (which is now becoming law in several places; either Tennessee or Colorado now has a law that you must have your ID on you when you leave your home for any reason).

[chazwicke]

Ve must see your papers!

[hops99]

I agree that laws should be obeyed even if it is one day from the birthday.

Yes, but I also whole-heartedly agree with you that the 21 drinking age is asinine. Furthermore, most people don't consider who's paying for the largesse of state officials absolutely WASTING your tax money by funding "stings" to determine that someone sold beer to another person who was a couple days short of 21. YOU AND I are paying for this crap.

In addition, if anyone thinks that these "stings" are for the common good, I've got a bridge to sell you. Each state enjoys a tremendous amount of revenue from alcohol - taxes, licensing, and of course....fines for menial "wrongdoings". I've got a friend who works for liquor control, and let's just say that quotas for alcohol fines are a dirty little secret.

It's enough to make me sick.

[hops99]

Ve must see your papers!

Chaz my man, you and I are on the same page!

[hopjack13]

a lot of stores out here will ask for your ID no matter what your age. anytime they ring up alcohol the computer/ cash register won't allow the item to be sold unless a valid birth date is punched in. the clerk doesn't even have to think about it, the register figures it out for them. same thing with 2am law ,actaully it's about 1:45 or something, the register won't ring up a sale for alcohol after that time.

[fretlessman71]

Come to think of it, last time I bought beer at a very new liquor store here, they asked for my ID and insisted I hand it to them. They swiped it into their register like it was a credit card and that told them what they needed to know. Big Brother, will you let me buy some beer? :rolleyes:

[P-Train]

I don't think Americans are mature enough to handle alcohol at age 18. I say keep it at least 21.

I remember when I was 21 and at my favorite hang out an undercover cop came in, got I.D.'d and went to play some pool.

It was really busy in the bar and the cops had the guy's brother come in wearing the same kind of clothing who wasn't 21 and the bartender thought it was the same guy, didn't I.D. him and then got a fine.

BS!

[hopjack13]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Come to think of it, last time I bought beer at a very new liquor store here, they asked for my ID and insisted I hand it to them. They swiped it into their register like it was a credit card and that told them what they needed to know.

now that i think of it........my ID has been demagnitized and that is why they always have to punch it in.:eek:

[hopjack13]

Originally posted by P-Train
I don't think Americans are mature enough to handle alcohol at age 18. I say keep it at least 21.

doesn't stop anyone around here from drinking at age 18, they just find some place else to go. if the law was reduced to 18 it might do some good. instead we have people 18-21 and younger breaking all kinds of other laws to get thier drunk on. or they find alternatives like these underground raves where its just a dope scene and every morning when the party over it's like, "43 overdoses and 5 of them died" and that is NOT an isolated event. this goes on in all kinds of places all over socal, and every weekend. and by the time the first OD's start happening and the cops find the place it too late, what do you do with three to fivehundred kids all high on E , special K and LSD? get some ambulances on stand by and wait till the music stops. it's pretty sad, but everyone turns thier heads like ain't nothin wrong and all is well, well its not.

[hops99]

I don't think Americans are mature enough to handle alcohol at age 18. I say keep it at least 21.

Well P-Train, with all due respect you need to read this:

http://www.lewbryson.com/legalat18.htm



Then let's talk....

[Jeff]

I and plenty of my fellow college students (oops, sorry Lew we aren't supposed to focus on that) did most of our binge drinking in bars after the age of 21. Until Americans respect alcohol in a different manner than the best possible way to escape from reality then 21 should stay.

[P-Train]

Okay Hops, I read the link but must still disagree. And the reason is for the human factor. The drinking age used to be 18. They changed it to 21. Still, 21 year olds can’t handle drinking responsibly. How could they at 18?

Two wrongs don’t make a right. I also don’t think many of the facts listed should include 18 year olds.

[hops99]

I also don’t think many of the facts listed should include 18 year olds.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I appreciate the fact that you're consistent - one of the obvious points that Lew drives home with the list.

Personally though, I heartily disagree.

[hops99]

doesn't stop anyone around here from drinking at age 18, they just find some place else to go. if the law was reduced to 18 it might do some good. instead we have people 18-21 and younger breaking all kinds of other laws to get thier drunk on.

Hopjack, that happens everywhere - from Ohio to Socal and everywhere in-between, and will continue to get worse UNTIL the legal age is reduced to 18 (or lower). I live in a college town - a BIG party town, and the police are constantly lamenting that the vast majority of binge drunks that they arrest are under 21 - point being that 18 - 20 year-olds are going to get their hands on the goods one way or another - the legal drinking age is nothing more than a feel-good law that negatively impacts most societies (hell, in Lew's piece, even COLLEGE PRESIDENTS are decrying the stupidity of 21).

I have yet to hear a single person explain to me why a 21 year old is more qualified to drink a beer than a 20 year old. Until I hear THAT scientific explanation, I'll side with lowering the age.

[fretlessman71]

I know people - quite a few, actually - that are irresponsible with their alcohol at the age of 37 and up. Maybe we ought to RAISE the age, not lower it... :rolleyes:

If you take away the "forbidden fruit" aspect of something, it's just not as enticing to many of those who might abuse it. Fact.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by hopjack13
now that i think of it........my ID has been demagnitized and that is why they always have to punch it in.:eek:

I think this quote belongs in the Nevermind thread.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by P-Train
Okay Hops, I read the link but must still disagree. And the reason is for the human factor. The drinking age used to be 18. They changed it to 21. Still, 21 year olds can’t handle drinking responsibly. How could they at 18?

Two wrongs don’t make a right. I also don’t think many of the facts listed should include 18 year olds.

Then raise the age of draftable men to 21 and also to anyone being tried as an adult.

[Bugz-TT]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
I know people - quite a few, actually - that are irresponsible with their alcohol at the age of 37 and up. Maybe we ought to RAISE the age, not lower it... :rolleyes:

If you take away the "forbidden fruit" aspect of something, it's just not as enticing to many of those who might abuse it. Fact.

As Fret put it, it all comes down to responsibility. A person age 18 to 20 could be more responsible and mature than a person 30 years old or older. I have always supported the arguement, that if I am old enough to die for my country then I am more than old enough to partake in ....

[corkybstewart]

My nephew and nieces in France start drinking watered down wine at an early age and by the time they're "old enough" to drink legally at the age of 16 its no big deal and youthful alcoholism isn't nearly the problem it is here. Look at all the college students who drink themselves to death becasue of the "I'm 21 and can drink legally" ritual our kids go through. My own son got drunk in France when he was 13 or 14 and decided he didn't enjoy it. He'll be 21 in December and isn't at all fascinated by the thought of legally drinking.

[haaseg]

I don't know... when you're underage and you're drinking, half of the adventure is just obtaining the stuff. Seems like in some off-hand way we're promoting a culture of sneakiness and lawbreaking.

But you can stop kidding yourself... The U.S. is about as progressive as a stone wagon wheel. You have a bunch of people, some of them quite intelligent, lobbying for lowering the drinking age and legalizing marijuana, and the truth of the matter is you got Politicians in New Jersey trying to tell me I can't smoke in my own damn car.

I'm not going to name any names, but there are people in this thread that are advocating the lowering of the drinking age and expecting people to make responsible decisions... and these are the same people who would revoke a bar-owners decision to allow smoking to take place in their establishment. Give me a break. If it's my bar, it oughta be my choice whether people smoke there or not. And don't give me any crap about 2nd hand smoke being dangerous to the patrons and the wait staff. The patrons are free to patronize somewhere else, and the wait staff are free to work in a smoke free environment.

You can't have your cake and eat it too people... you want choice and responsibility (as I do), than take it across the board... not just on your pet cause or your revolution du jour.

[corkybstewart]

Even though I'm a reformed smoker I agree with you about bars. Lets face it, nobody goes to bars for their health. I do believe that restaurants should be smoke free or at least should have separate smoking rooms. I'ld also like to see separate rooms for people with small screaming babies but that won't happen. When the no smoking in restaurant laaws took effect here the owners cried and moaned about being forced out of business but the opposite has happened. People don't smoke in church, they can wait to finish their meal before lighting up. Here people are still allowed to smoke in bars so some of the eateries have opened "bars" where people can eat, drink and smoke.
Lowering the drinking age significantly will be hard because as someone said ours is a culture of sneakiness and anticipation. It would realistically take generations for this nation to accept loosened moral laws, and we're not exactly headed in that direction these days.

[hops99]

I'm not going to name any names

Where's Jose Canseco when you need him....

[Kyle_Draven]

I have seen one study and I wish I could remember the name of it. They said that up until 21 years of age the body is growing very fast and that the alcohol will dampen the growth. Personally I think that it is a stretch. I know that in japan you can buy a beer out of a vending machine like chips but japan has a lower level of alcholics then the U.S. Thats because of how they are brought up. It's just part of being a teen ager if you tell them that they can't do it they most certainly will. I know that here in Indiana we have several rules about alcohol. Can't buy on Sundays, can't buy more then x bottles at one time. They don't stop anything people just go someplace else.
On the big brother thing. Here the cops can throw you in jail if you don't have a picture id on you. I talked to one of my officer friends and he said that is because it is considered failure to comply with an officer.

[haaseg]

Originally posted by Kyle_Draven
I have seen one study... said that up until 21 years of age the body is growing very fast and that the alcohol will dampen the growth... in japan.

Taking things a bit out of context, but...

Insert obligatory joke about why Japanese people are so short.

[chazwicke]

I've said this in threads before - I am a non smoker but do not advocate enforced bans on smoking in bars. I prefer bars where I don't have to deal with smoke or come home smelling like it but I think it is a personnel choice. And it would not prevent me from going into a place that I want to patronize. Seat belts too. I think it is your own choice to wear or not wear but I think that those who don't are fairly stupid.

This has nothing to do with the drinking age however.

As it was well put above: If you are old enough to die for your country then you ought to be old enough to enjoy the privileges.

If it is to be 21 make everything 21. Including getting a drivers license.

[fretlessman71]

Hasseg, go ahead and name me - I don't mind. I admit that I'm downright socialistic about the smoking ban and am for it for strictly personal reasons. This is my hypocrisy, and it's not going to go away anytime soon. I don't expect people to make responsible decisions, but I'm also not for binding the country's hands behind their backs and telling them what they can and can't do (smoking issue excepted here).

What this discussion is boiling down to (as does every political or semi-political discussion) is this: At what point do we allow people to make their own mistakes, and at what point does my nose get in the way of your swinging fist?

And I don't have a good answer for you.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by hops99
Hopjack, that happens everywhere - from Ohio to Socal and everywhere in-between, and will continue to get worse UNTIL the legal age is reduced to 18 (or lower). I live in a college town - a BIG party town, and the police are constantly lamenting that the vast majority of binge drunks that they arrest are under 21 - point being that 18 - 20 year-olds are going to get their hands on the goods one way or another - the legal drinking age is nothing more than a feel-good law that negatively impacts most societies (hell, in Lew's piece, even COLLEGE PRESIDENTS are decrying the stupidity of 21).

I have yet to hear a single person explain to me why a 21 year old is more qualified to drink a beer than a 20 year old. Until I hear THAT scientific explanation, I'll side with lowering the age.

Your argument (and/or Lew's) doesn't hold water. From what I read here, you're saying kids under 21 are buying and binging anyway, so why not just lower the legal age to 18. Hell, why stop there? 17 year olds will then be clamoring for a brew, and so on and so on...it'll never stop. Age is not the underlying problem here. Maturity is. Unfortunately, most American teens aren't mature enough to handle alcohol - same with many adults. Fact remains that a drinking age minimum exists - deal with it. Teach your kids to drink responsibly in the privacy of your own home and maybe, just maybe, they'll be less likely to binge on crappy beer and cheap booze later in life. Start as early as 12 y.o. or whenever you see fit.

Lowering the age isn't the answer, imo.

I do agree that 21 year olds are no more mature than a 20 year old. Same with voting - lots of 17 year olds might better understand world issues and be better prepared to vote for a candidate than someone one year older. Yet, the age requirement remains. Too many examples like this to list.

Cheers!

[fretlessman71]

Yeah - what we really need is for someone to come up with a maturity test, and base our laws and limits on that instead. Any takers?

[wortchillergoal]

I want to chime in about the smoking issue. There were no smoke free bars that I know of before the law came into being. So how could I go support a non smoking bar when none existed. I will be very surprised to learn if there were more than a few of these type bars.

Still, I was not for the law to ban smoking in bars. I do support no smoking in restaurants. Telling people where they can smoke when it comes to their property, ie car, is just plain wrong. You people in NJ voted those idiots in, so deal with them before they give our idiots ideas.

As far as maturity and drnking. No matter what age, you will find people abusing. The first step though is better education about alcohol.

[hops99]

Age is not the underlying problem here. Maturity is. Unfortunately, most American teens aren't mature enough to handle alcohol - same with many adults.

*sigh* You're backing my point, whether you realize it or not. If age is not the underlying problem (which we both agree), then why 21? How are 18 year olds "mature" enough to own a gun, or vote, or drive a car, but AREN'T "mature" enough to drink alcohol? C'mon.....

[YamahaXS]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Yeah - what we really need is for someone to come up with a maturity test, and base our laws and limits on that instead. Any takers?

Obviously there can be no such thing. Instead what we need to do is focus our efforts on identifying those people who are intentionally breaking the law, and where those infractions have the greatest impact. This would mean looking for vendors who sell to those more than just a couple of months shy of legal age, especially when the DOB is easily confused with an otherwise legal DOB.

I dont' condone the underage purchase of alcohol, but the police are wasting everyone's time and money when they contrive a sting that really doesn't indicate whether the person was knowingly and intentionally breaking the law.

The smoking discussion needs its own thread. ;)

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by hops99
How are 18 year olds "mature" enough to own a gun, or vote, or drive a car, but AREN'T "mature" enough to drink alcohol? C'mon.....

Most aren't. Why give them another thing they can't handle with little to no education about it and little to no support from most parents, to whom the job of educating ultimately falls? Hell, the driving age was 16 when I got my license - and I drove like a jackass. Too bad I couldn't snag a sixer on my way to the shooting range...wait! Today's election day...who's running again? 16, 18, 21...whatever. Without educating kids about these things, any age is meaningless.

And since you brought it up, I feel driver's education, gun safety courses and political science classes should be mandatory for anyone wanting to participate in those activities.

Start with education - at home. A bar full of HS seniors isn't something I look forward to any time soon.

Cheers!

[haaseg]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
What this discussion is boiling down to (as does every political or semi-political discussion) is this: At what point do we allow people to make their own mistakes

ahhh... I think you meant to say "At what point do we allow people to learn from their own mistakes"

IMHO, the kind of people that aren't going to learn from their own mistakes are also the kind of people who go around breaking laws and excerting their own will no matter what the cost. I disagree with any scenario where many suffer for the actions of one. Although I also know this as a fact of nature (not just human) where one rotten apple can spoil a whole bunch.

As far as this particular thread is concerned, I agree that there should be one age that binds them all, be it 16,18 or 21 is a different argument.

I'm for no drinking age at all, but only in countries whose social and familial environments can handle it. You couldn't do it in the U.S. I know far too many parents who don't talk to their kids at all... who expect the schools and Uncle Sam to take care of them instead.

I don't know... it just tears me up whenever I see a kid riding a bicycle these days. Not 20 years ago, I was 10 years-old, riding my BMX to the local pool by myself, cutting through the forest where he had built huge jumps and ramps on the bike trails. We didn't even know what a bicycle helmut was, and if we ever saw one, we probably would have laughed our asses off.

[hops99]

Most aren't. Why give them another thing they can't handle

See, what I'm looking for is consistency. Consumption of alcohol should be lumped in with all of the other afore-mentioned "legal" adult activities. Whether the age is 18 or 21 (and of course, I think it should be 18) or whatever, the point is that ALL of it should be one age.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by hops99
See, what I'm looking for is consistency. Consumption of alcohol should be lumped in with all of the other afore-mentioned "legal" adult activities. Whether the age is 18 or 21 (and of course, I think it should be 18) or whatever, the point is that ALL of it should be one age.

AGREED! This is my point too.


Hasseg, I too remember those days. It was a different world when I grew up. Things were simpler then.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by hops99
See, what I'm looking for is consistency. Consumption of alcohol should be lumped in with all of the other afore-mentioned "legal" adult activities. Whether the age is 18 or 21 (and of course, I think it should be 18) or whatever, the point is that ALL of it should be one age.

I agree there is no rhyme nor reason to many laws, but why lump them all together? To me, it's as silly as the current age requirements that have weak/no basis for their existence. Each one of these activities requires different levels of maturity - driving, imo, requiring the highest level of maturity and skill. I can see your frustration with the law, but making an argument for changing one/all to a common minimum age would be tough to sell.

Cheers!

[haaseg]

NewportStorm,

You do make a good point, but I still had to register for the draft when I turned 18. We haven't had a draft in a very long time, but it's still a very sobering experience.

My feeling is that if you're man enough to aim a gun at someone in your country's defense (or offense, depending on how you feel about the current situation), then you oughta be man enough to go home and drink it off.

If you're intelligent enough and mature enough to elect someone into political office, than you oughta be intelligent enough and mature enough to handle a drink.

We're talking about 2 very MAJOR responsibilities that you pick up automatically by turning 18.

[hops99]

I agree there is no rhyme nor reason to many laws, but why lump them all together?

Simple - at some point in time (currently, it's 18), the federal government needs to establish that an individual is legally considered to be an adult.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by hops99
Simple - at some point in time (currently, it's 18), the federal government needs to establish that an individual is legally considered to be an adult.

I know teens that handle booze better than some "adults". I know teens that know more about the world than some "adults". I know teens that could drive circles around some "adults". It's just a number. If a number makes you feel better - lobby for it. Won't solve a damn thing, but go for it if you're passionate about it.

Cheers!

[hopjack13]

The legal drinking age here in the U.S. will almost certainly never change.
it's almost a waste of time trying to argue about it, and 18 year olds will dink if they want any way. When I was 16 we’d go to these underground partys, they give you a flyer with a phone # to call. About 2 hours before the party started (it wouldn’t work before then) you’d call and they would give you directions on some ansewring service. You’d follow the directions to some remote place where someone standing in some dark corner would have the actual adress to where the party was (in one incident it was an abandoned winery cellar). If you didn’t look like you were on the level you wouldn’t get directions (this kept the cops away, for a while anyways) then when you finally do get to the party, you paid the entry fee went inside and there were bands, food and you guessed it , a full bar , kegs and kegs. Kids as young as 13 walking around with cocktails or a cup full of beer. Not to mention there were more drugs then you could shake a stick at. So regaurdless to what the legal drinking age is, if underage people want to drink they’ll find a way. The best thing we can do is try and educate our children on responsible drinking. I would rather my sons stay home at 18 and have a few beers with me then out running around with a bunch of derelicts trying to score booze. If any law should be changed I think it’s the draft law, my cousins are 18 and I can’t imgine them holding a gun and going in to battler, I think they’re too young.

[haaseg]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Won't solve a damn thing, but go for it if you're passionate about it.

ROTFLMAO...

[hops99]

I know teens that handle booze better than some "adults". I know teens that know more about the world than some "adults". I know teens that could drive circles around some "adults". It's just a number. If a number makes you feel better - lobby for it. Won't solve a damn thing, but go for it if you're passionate about it.


Sure....

Once again you're making my point for me. If all of these teens are making "adults" seem adolescent, then why 21 for the drinking age? I'd still LOVE to hear some kind of intellectual explanation as to why 21 is the magic number.

[wortchillergoal]

Going back to the first train of thought this thread presented. I think cops running around doing this is a waste. I believe that most people that end up arrested for selling to a minor had no intention of doing so. They need to go after the people who are willing to sell to minors knowing that they are such.

There is a business here that runs around and does spot checks for you. They send a minor with an adult supervisor. the police are not involved. Tjis is preformed as a service to your bussiness. They give you their report and you can take what ever action you see fit. I would use this service if I was in that business.

As to the people that sell to someone who appears 21 but is not, I say let them reecieve a written warning first with a small fine to drive home the point. Put their name in a file and a second offense brings the arrest.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by hops99
Sure....

Once again you're making my point for me. If all of these teens are making "adults" seem adolescent, then why 21 for the drinking age? I'd still LOVE to hear some kind of intellectual explanation as to why 21 is the magic number.

Random number. Good luck on your quest...lemme know if the holy grail turns up, too.

Seriously though, it's because alcohol is taboo, and anything that's taboo must have a age requirement attached to it. Drinking age used to be 18. Why'd it change? I'd start there for your "intellectual explanation".

I vote for hospitals handing out a sixpack, rifle and a set of car keys to every newborn that comes through. Get 'em young!

Cheers!

[hopjack13]

Originally posted by hops99
I'd still LOVE to hear some kind of intellectual explanation as to why 21 is the magic number.

well, if you're betting at a card table.......and the name of the game happens to be..........21!

hey gambling there's another one, 21 to play craps, 18 to play slots??????

[Jeff]

Originally posted by hops99
Sure....

Once again you're making my point for me. If all of these teens are making "adults" seem adolescent, then why 21 for the drinking age? I'd still LOVE to hear some kind of intellectual explanation as to why 21 is the magic number.

That's easy. The gap in years puts the person away from high school. I had to work my ass off in high school to find alcohol, and most of the time my friends and I didn't. If we knew a senior that could buy for us when we were 16 that would have made it that much easier to get wasted.

[hops99]

Random number.

Eh, thanks for the thoughtful insight.


I vote for hospitals handing out a sixpack, rifle and a set of car keys to every newborn that comes through. Get 'em young!

Don't they already do that in Texas? ;)

[haaseg]

Originally posted by Jeff
That's easy. The gap in years puts the person away from high school. I had to work my ass off in high school to find alcohol, and most of the time my friends and I didn't. If we knew a senior that could buy for us when we were 16 that would have made it that much easier to get wasted.

Err... most high school students I know were barely 18 when they graduated... I didn't turn 18 until a few days later. Now that I think about it... most college students weren't 21 until their Jr. year. In college, nearly anyone can find booze... and by that time it's way too late... they have much exposure and little guidance.

[Herb Ninja]

I could never sell alcohol in America, I just couldn't bring myself to deny beer to people just because they are under 21 years of age. Its absolutely ridiculous. If 18 is the age that people are considered legal adults in this country then its retarded that the drinking age is 21.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by Herb Ninja
If 18 is the age that people are considered legal adults in this country then its retarded that the drinking age is 21.

That's the problem. There is no magic age when you are an "adult" and can do eveything "adults" can do. Hell, they put kids as young as 14 (or younger) on trial as "adults" sometimes.

Again, too many age requirements to fully cover. e.g. I can vote at 18 but can't run for president until age 35. Etc.

Cheers!

[Sven6]

That really sucks...

Years ago when I was going to school, I got arrested by TABC (Texas Alcohol Bev. Comm.) for selling alcohol to a minor...

I worked at a drive-thru beer barn... Yes we have these things in Texas... You can get a 6-pac, a keg, or Margarita in a foam cup with a straw, and not even have to get out of your car. But I digress...

I asked for their ID.
The driver didnt have any, the passenger did, so ok fine, I get their 6-pac, BUT she handed the $$ to the driver who then handed it across to me, so according to TABC,(who just happened to be sitting directly behind them in line in an unmarked car), the sale was made to the underage driver... What a BS, ass-weasel, set-up...

Anyway, I get to set in jail for 8hrs waiting to get processed.
My court date comes, I talk to the judge, get deferred judication & a fine...

Keep in mind this was all about 10 years ago...

So my oldest son is starts kindergarden this year and anyone who wants to volunteer to work with the class has to pass a background check... you see where this is going right... MY wife, mother, etc. all pass the background check... Not me, WTF?.. yes, it's still on my record, they never cleared the D-J after I finished the amount of time...

So now I have to wait for the county to fix the record and the school to give me the ok. :mad:

[mookow]

Originally posted by newportstorm
That's the problem. There is no magic age when you are an "adult" and can do eveything "adults" can do. Hell, they put kids as young as 14 (or younger) on trial as "adults" sometimes.

Again, too many age requirements to fully cover. e.g. I can vote at 18 but can't run for president until age 35. Etc.

Cheers!

As there is no magic age, why seperate them? If the state says you're old enough and mature enough to die for the benefit of the state (ie, the draft*), how can you not be old enough to be expected to responsibly handle alcohol? I also dont understand why you can buy tobacco (an addictive product never shown to have any health benefits, but many more harmful effects than alcohol) at 18, but beer at 21.

*Note: my objection to enlistment is not the same as an objection to the existence of a volunteer military.