what is going wrong with my mashes?

[b3s]

ok, my last two mashes have been terrible...basically the last two mashes have been consistently 25 hydrometer points away from the target. my lastest was 16 pounds of 35-7 ppg grains and my gravity after boil was only 50! the one prior to that used 12 pounds of 35 ppg grains and was around 40.

i've been meticulous about sanitization and temperature control. the mash temp i start at about 158-160F and it drops to about 154F. my sparge temps have been 175F. my sparge takes about 30-45 minutes and i'm mashing until either a few drops of iodophor do not turn black in the runoff or for 90-120 minutes; whichever comes later. i'm draining/recycling the runoff and stirring every 30 minutes.

there must be something i'm doing wrong here, but i can't figure it out. should i not let the sparge water free flow through the grain bed? i'm just totally confused on why all of a sudden my mash efficiency dropped like a brick. i'm using the same tap water and everything.

thanks for any input.

[brewmonkey]

Check the grind of your grist for starters. Is it to fine/coarse? Adjust that.

While someone is most likely going to mention your pH, I would suspect that you are using your municipal water supply, and if so it should be ok. However, if you are interested in investing some money in a new toy, grab a pH meter and check it. You should land with a mash pH of about 5.1-5.3 to be about midrange.

Did I also read that you are stirring the mash DURING lauter? If so, unless the mash is stuck that is not needed. Once you have achieved your mash time, you should do a mash out by raising the temp to 168-172 and hold it for 10 minutes before starting your lauter. Then do a recirculation until your wort is running clear into the grant (or whatever you are using). Then slowly run to the kettle while sparging at 168-172.

What is the modification (diastatic power) of the malt you are using?

[b3s]

yeah, i'm using municipal water. everything went fine the first couple of times, but my last two have been terrible. i attributed the first one to older grain (kept it cracked in the freezer for a bit longer than i intended), but the 2nd time i brewed 2 days after getting grain.

to clarify, what i've been doing is:
0) grain is cracked at the brewshop. i assume it is correct.
1) adding 1 quart of 158-160F water per pound of grain. i pour half in, stir, then pour in the other half, then stir again.
2) every 30 minutes i drain off, recirculate, and stir. if temp falls to 150F i add appropriate amount of boiling water.
3) when 90 minutes or iodine test passes (whichever is later), i empty and sparge until clear or 4 gallons of sparge water, whatever takes longer.
4) i pour off half of the mash-wort into another kettle, then top off each kettle until they are at a combined volume of 6 gallons.

i guess from that and what you said, i was lucky for a while...what i should be doing is just letting the mash sit, then add sparge water until full, then let the temp rise...after THAT i should then do a normal sparge...guess my technique is messed up.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by b3s

i guess from that and what you said, i was lucky for a while...what i should be doing is just letting the mash sit, then add sparge water until full, then let the temp rise...after THAT i should then do a normal sparge...guess my technique is messed up.

After mashing you pull and recirculate the first runnings until they are clear. Then you drain the first runnings into your kettle until the water level is only an inch or so above the top of the grain bed. Then you start sparging...


Just out of curiousity have the last two batches been the same grain and is that grain different from your previous batches?

[b3s]

all of the batches were different. the last was a california common that should have been around 80 gravity, but instead was 50. prior to that was an american pale ale which was 20 points lower than calculated. then came a wheat which was actually 10 points higher, then an IPA that was 5 points higher.

your description sounds like what i have been doing, letting the runoff go and then sparging, which just confuses me further.

at this point, to get the gravities i want i'm going to be spending more on grains than if i were doing extract :(

[Tom C]

Out of curiousity, have you been adjusting the og calculation with temps? A hydrometer will give accurate readings I beleive for 60 degrees. There are calculators that will make this adjustment for you if you know the temp of the wort when you are making a gravity reading.

Tom C

[b3s]

yeah...what i do is adjust my calculated OG upward to the 70F that my wort typically is after chilling.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by b3s

4) i pour off half of the mash-wort into another kettle, then top off each kettle until they are at a combined volume of 6 gallons.



Wait, do you mean that you're adding plain water? You should be sparging out a sufficient volume into the kettle and then boiling to reduce.

[b3s]

yeah, i'm adding plain water. my sparge is totally clear, and i just don't have the kettle volume to sparge my full boil volume.

i suppose that means the problem is the plain water?

like i said, my sparge water is usually completely clear by the time i sparge 4 gallons of water and the one or so gallons of mash runoff all i need to add is about one gallon of clear water.

[Fast_Eddy]

I don't necessarily think it's the plain water per se...if you were creating a sufficiently dense wort then adding the water should lower the gravity but then the boil should condense the wort and raise the gravity.

I think your extraction efficiency is low enough that your not getting enough fermentables from the grain...the iodine test kind of confirms that.

Question(s): Did your previous batches vary widely in the amount of grain? Are the last two batches the ones with the most grain?

I'm thinking your 16 lb mash might have been too thick. I generally use a 4 quarts/3 lb grain ratio but I might have even went to 4.5 qts/3lbs just because 16 lbs is a lot of grain. Thinner mashes favor more complete conversion but will also take a little longer. What was the grain bill for the 16lbs? Was it all 2 and/or 6 row?

One other thing that you do that seems a little different is add the water to the grain instead of the other way around. I'm not sure what difference this might make.....

[b3s]

my first batch was 10# of grain, second and third 12#, and the fourth 16#. the first batch was 1/2 6-row. the second batch was 1/2 6-row and about 1/3 wheat. the third batch was 2/3 6-row, and the fourth was 1/2 american vienna.

in all four batches, the iodophur gave a positive test.

i think you may be right about too thick of a mash. also, i never thought to add the water first, then the grain. i guess i wanted to make sure the grain was thoroughly infused by pouring the water over it.

[denver brewhoo]

so doesn't explain the change in results.

I'm a neophyte, only 2 all grain batches, but I read somewhere else that this year's American pale malt grains are noticeably smaller than previous crops, and that people should be readjusting their grind accordingly. Somebody already suggested this; are you sure this isn't the variable that's responsible?

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by denver brewhoo
so doesn't explain the change in results.

I'm a neophyte, only 2 all grain batches, but I read somewhere else that this year's American pale malt grains are noticeably smaller than previous crops, and that people should be readjusting their grind accordingly. Somebody already suggested this; are you sure this isn't the variable that's responsible?

Yeah, I agree that it's still unsolved.. :confused:

I also agree that assuming there hasn't been a technique change(too high heat mashes, too short mashes, etc) that the grain becomes the primary suspect.

Has anyone else experienced a change in the American Pale? I personally haven't and my OG's have been right on. Could be that that my Homebrew store has adjusted their mill already.

[Pappy]

Well, I'm having IDENTICALLY the same problem and was going to post, but decided to do a search first. Found this thread and thought I'd put it back to the top. I brewed a Hefeweizen today that used 12 pounds of grain and only ended up with about a 1.047! I'm at a loss. PH was at 5.6 (although I only used strips), mash temp was 157 in an igloo cooler. I even used two thermometers. Very slow sparge...about a gallon every ten minutes. Did a mash out to about 170 prior to sparging. It boiled down to 5.25 gallons from 7. ( I also used two kettles, but I did not add any clear water as b3S did).

I had previoulsy been doing direct fire, no sparge and decided to go back to sparging because I was unhappy with my efficiency. Thought for sure I had it nailed today and was quite bummed when I took the OG reading. Any thoughts?

[Pappy]

This also happens to be the same batch that I found weevils in the lauter tun (a lot of them) after sparging. Wondering if their presence signifies an age problem with the grain or something else that might impede efficiency.

[brewmonkey]

5.6 is still a little on the high side for a mash pH. Optimum pH for the mash is about 5.2.

Weevils can appear at almost anytime in the grain. But aging grain is a problem for brewers, especially if it has not been stored properly. If the LHBS is buying in large quantities and then not storing it correctly it will present problems.

When the grain was milled also plays a part. You should try to use your grain as soon as possible after it is milled, as it will start to absorb moisture from the air which will affect your final OG.

[Pappy]

Perhaps the combination of these factors contributed here. I will ask the supplier of my grain about age, but I am guessing since we are in Hawaii, he has a lot shipped at one time due to cost. I milled the grain 72 hours before using it and it's been more humid than normal the past few days so maybe the combination of all of these factors, including the PH was the culprit. I'll be at it again here soon keeping that stuff in mind and we'll see how it goes. Heck, even the failures are awesome in this hobby!!!

[brewmonkey]

With all those factors Pappy I would say that is where your problem lies.

You are right though, even when something goes "wrong" doesn't mean it is a loss.:D

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by Pappy
Perhaps the combination of these factors contributed here. I will ask the supplier of my grain about age, but I am guessing since we are in Hawaii, he has a lot shipped at one time due to cost. I milled the grain 72 hours before using it and it's been more humid than normal the past few days so maybe the combination of all of these factors, including the PH was the culprit. I'll be at it again here soon keeping that stuff in mind and we'll see how it goes. Heck, even the failures are awesome in this hobby!!!

Dude, you live in Hawaii - quit complaining. Just kidding ;)

[ray m]

Brewmonkey....check your PM box.....

[Tom C]

After re-reading this section I am wondering if your problem lies in the mash temp of 158. This is high for the beta enzymes to nibble on the ends of the starches to convert to sugar. I htink a mash temp of 148-152 may be better suited for you. Just a though.

Tom C

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Tom C
After re-reading this section I am wondering if your problem lies in the mash temp of 158. This is high for the beta enzymes to nibble on the ends of the starches to convert to sugar. I htink a mash temp of 148-152 may be better suited for you. Just a though.

Tom C

158 is the higher end, but not going to cause these type of problems.

[b3s]

well, as an interim solution, i have gone back to extract + grain brewing. my last three mashes turned out horrid beer, both in taste and OG -- i'm beginning to suspect the following:


i'm doing something totally wrong and probably need someone to watch just what i'm doing.
dry hopping...for some strange reason dryhopping is definitely doing something bad to the taste
brewing during the summer is just not going right
my MLT (plastic) has some kind of infection


currently i have a honey wheat going (extract + grain) and it's just fine. this weekend i'm doing an irish red and i expect similar results.

[brewmonkey]

An infection in your MLT should not be coming across in the finished product. The mash is not in there long enough and it is followed by a boil which kills off any problems.

[b3s]

well, i doubted that it was an infection myself...but i am at a loss why my first several mashes went awesome (margin of error < 1% on gravity) and my last several have been horrid (over 10% low).

i think the beers turned out horrid in general because the temp in the apartment was too high and i think my dry hopping didn't go as planned, so i've stopped dry hopping for now.

[Aleman]

If I understand B3s correctly, he used Vienna malt in 1/2 of the grain bill. I know Vienna is a modified malt and not as fermentable as 2-row or 6-row. Could this also effect the starting gravity? I would think 3/4 2-row and 1/4 Vienna would be better.

[brewmonkey]

No, he is good with that amount of Vienna, the same would go for Munich malt.

You will find that in some traditional beers that these malts will account for well beyond 50% of the grist and in some Bocks may infact be up to 75%+ of the grist. It does have the ability to convert on its own so it may be used up to 100% of the grist.

[PCaravan]

I just used a relatively large amount of American Vienna (Briess) in my last batch and saw a horrid drop in efficiency though the amount I used was not as high you. I only used 15%. I normally don't worry about efficiency but the drop was significant enough that I too would have been better off useing extract. Another thing I did the same is that I added the grain to the cooler first and then added the water, in the past I added a little of both in increments. I read in another forum that someone got a significant increase in efficiency by just added water first and then adding the grain. I'll try that next time though it doesn't make any sence to me why that would make a significant difference in efficiency and is why I'm still looking for other ideas.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by PCaravan
I just used a relatively large amount of American Vienna (Briess) in my last batch and saw a horrid drop in efficiency though the amount I used was not as high you. I only used 15%. I normally don't worry about efficiency but the drop was significant enough that I too would have been better off useing extract. Another thing I did the same is that I added the grain to the cooler first and then added the water, in the past I added a little of both in increments. I read in another forum that someone got a significant increase in efficiency by just added water first and then adding the grain. I'll try that next time though it doesn't make any sence to me why that would make a significant difference in efficiency and is why I'm still looking for other ideas.

You should always lay in your foundation water and then add your grist while adding the rest of the water. Depending on the type of lauter plates you have it will make a BIG difference.

Dry grain if added before the water will clog the holes/sieves you are using to lauter. Enough of them get blocked and you will see a massive drop in efficiency. Even using a manifold for a lauter tun will have the same problems.

[PCaravan]

I could understand that point if I was fly sparging but I batch sparged as I had with my previous batches. As I understand it the flow of the wort from the grain isn't supposed to matter when batch sparging.

[brewmonkey]

If you add the dry grist before the water you are most likely clogging your lauter polate/manifold. It is not a question of how you sparge but wether there is flow. If you have even 10% of the flow blocked you will see reduced efficiency no matter what method you use to sparge.

[PCaravan]

Ok, thanks. I'll add the water first next time and see what happens. Not that lower effeciency means bad beer, just less beer.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by PCaravan
Ok, thanks. I'll add the water first next time and see what happens. Not that lower effeciency means bad beer, just less beer.

Exactly, as well as more $$ per batch. Even though it is only a buck or so, add it up over the year and it is 2-3 more batches you could have done.