wow! pilsner?

[xian 1g]

Well,
I've been brewing every week for a little over a half year now. Been all extract, shortly here I'm switching over to all grain. But, about 5 weeks ago I switched the way I brew.

Before, I was brewing beers that fermented in about 1 week, and then I only bottled for two weeks. (all original recipes)

I have began trying to immulate different styles of beer, and brewing higher gravity beers. I've began brewing beers that take about 2 weeks to ferment, and then allowing 5 weeks of bottling.

Last week I tested a UFHG berry beer. That needed another 3 weeks for aging. I was happy with it, especially considering I'm not a big berry beer fan.

This weeks 2 week test, wow, it was supposed to be a pilsner, strong and hoppy. (about 9.5% alc by volume). Wow, it tastes like a pilsner... so damn proud. It definetly needs more hop, and is probally out of the pilsner color range, too amber/dark... But, I'm impressed that I don't know much about styles of beers or how to make them, but this screams pilsner... And it's pretty decent. Can't wait to see how it is in three weeks.

That's all... I've got a lot of work to do, a lot of learning, and many questions I'll bother you guys with. Thanks for all your help so far...

wow, this is the tastiest beer I've made yet.

[zoom6zoom]

At 9.5, sounds more like an Imperial Pilsner!

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by zoom6zoom
At 9.5, sounds more like an Imperial Pilsner!

I'm looking to make an Imperial Pils as my first lager when the weather turns colder (so my fermentation fridge doesn't have to work as hard). I'd love to see your recipe and maybe you can suggest how much more hop you think it may need.

[HarkJohnny]

you can make anything imperial... i'd just say to hit 20 points above the suggested gravity.

and at 9.5% for a Pilsner, that sure sounds Imperial to me!

[Otis_The_Drunk]

Recipe please.

[Dextolen]

Xian pours pils into glass...sips. With a bad film edit, a crown appears on his head...

"IMPERIAAAAL"

(man, I'm dating myself)

[zoom6zoom]

..."Butter".

[xian 1g]

Sorry for the mis-classification. Like I said, even though I've been 'extracting' for about 6 months, I'm still a bit of a newb about all the proper terms, etc etc.

recipe:

6.6 lbs of Muntins Pilsner malt. (syrup)
3 lbs of amber malt. (powder - lhbs brand)
1.3 lbs of kicker. (it's a darker syrup, labeled pale ale???)
-------------------------------------------
1lb Briess Carapils Grain, crushed/milled
2lb crystal malt 120l, crushed/milled
1lb pilner malt 90l, (lhbs brand) crushed/milled

all seeped at 172degrees for 30 minutes.

--------------------------------------------
2lb of corn grit, teabagged for the entire brew.


---------------------------------------------
all hops are whole not pellet. (forgot to right down acid levels)

1 oz Hallertauer beginning of boil.

1 oz Saaz 10 min into boil.

1 oz czech 20 min into boil.

1 oz perle 30 min into boil.

1 oz willamette 45 min into boil.

-------------------------------------------------
2tsp of gypsum at the beginning of the boil.
2tsp of irish moss last 15 min of boil
2tsp amalyse at flame out.
(2tsp of gelatin finings for bottling)
----------------------------------

After a 1 hour boil, cool down in the sink, to canadian lager yeast packets were tossed into the primary fermenter (as well as the 2 pint glasses that they were acclimating in according to instruction).

1 week later, I racked it into a secondary fermenter and tossed it in the fridge, 50 degrees, for 1 week. so far it's been bottling for 2 weeks. It's got 3 more to go.

og: 1.100
fg: 1.028



I'm sure there is a lot more I could have done better. first off, I need to start ordering my ingredient's online... the lhbs is sooo limiting... I have 2 choices of yeast! canadian lager or coopers ale!

well, I try, and thanks to this board I'm learning. Have only had 1 beer I didn't like so far. ( was broke and accidentally made n/a beer.) I've seen improvements and have been saving up to go all grain. I can't wait. as well as growing my hops.

any suggestions would be appreciated.. thanks.



and dextolen.. you are right on. lol.

[BrewDog]

xian 1g said:

-------------------------------------------
1lb Briess Carapils Grain, crushed/milled
2lb crystal malt 120l, crushed/milled
1lb pilner malt 90l, (lhbs brand) crushed/milled

all seeped at 172degrees for 30 minutes.

--------------------------------------------
2lb of corn grit, teabagged for the entire brew.
<snip>
-------------------------------------------------
2tsp amalyse at flame out.
----------------------------------
<snip>
any suggestions would be appreciated.. thanks.


Since you are asking for suggestions and comments, here are some things I think either seem odd or could be changed to improve your next batch using this recipe.


First, A couple questions:

1) Is the pilsner (did you spell it wrong above?) really 90L?
or is it 0.9L (which seems much more reasonable to me).

2) I also don't understand exactly what you did with the grits. Did you leave them in the mash (in a bag) for the whole mash, or did you leave them in the boil pot? Or both?

90L is way too dark for a pilsner base malt.
If it is some kind of kilned malt made from pilsner base malt and is really 90L, then you have zero base malts, and the corn grits won't convert. You will end up with some massive unconverted starch haze in the final product.

A pure steep should be done at less than 170 to avoid leaching tannins from the grain husks. This leads to astringent beers.

Assuming the pilsner malt is in fact a base pilsner malt, 172 is too hot for this as a partial mash. You should be going at 151-152 to slightly favor beta amylase conversion for a pilsner style beer. 158 is the max for alpha amylase conversion, which would leave a highly dextrinous, big mouthfeel beer. 168-170 is the mash-out/sparge temp range. It is used to stop the alpha and beta enzymes from converting, and to heat the mash so it runs a little thinner while you drain/sparge. Mashing at 172 will essentially stop all conversion from taking place, so all you would be doing is extracting starches and tannins at this hot temp.

Suggestions:
1) Add about half of the gypsum to the mash water. Since that will go into the boil pot anyway, it can be used to help lower the mash pH, improving your conversion.

2) Next time, I'd use 4-5 lbs of pilsner malt, mash at 151, and keep the grits with the other grains in the mash only. This is because 1 lb of pilsner 2 row only has enough enzyme to convert itself plus 30%-40% more of adjuncts. 4-5 lbs would be enough to convert itself plus 1 lb of CaraPils + 2lbs grits. (The crystal malt is pre-converted, so you don't need to count it in this calculation).
You would also need to reduce the pale malt extract by about 2 lb or so to compensate for the additional base malt in the mini mash. Or not! at >1.100, what's a dozen or so extra gravity points? :D


NOTE: Ok, I just spotted the line where you added 2tsp amylase to the batch after the boil was completed. Rather than go back and change everything above, I'll just add more comments here.

I think that the amylase was to allow any unconverted starches to be converted to sugars in the fermenter after the boil. I'm not sure if this will work, as I am sure that the natural amylase enzymes present in the base malt need 130-158 to work. Not sure about this stuff. It might or might not work, I'm simply not sure. It just seems very questionable to me. Maybe BrewMonkey or Stod might chime in on this.

Personally, I'd skip that stuff next time and rely on using the extra base malt instead of the amylase powder.

Hope this helps-

[Grog]

Were you following some other person's recipe, or did you create this one?

One thing I might have done differently is to save the Saaz hops for the later additions because they have such a subtle and mellow (and delicious) flavor. By boiling them for 50 & 40 minutes, you pretty much relegated those wonderful hops to bittering detail.

I, personally, would also let a beer this big condition longer than 1 week in the secondary so there was more yeast to beer contact for a longer time. Other than that, seems like an interesting spread of ingredients, and if you are happy with it, well, that's why we do this now isn't it.

BTW - I am curious on the logic of tea bagging corn grits throughout the process, I've never heard of that before. For why did you do this :confused:?

[xian 1g]

Brewdog,
Thanks so much for the advicel. I really appreciate it.

First, this was an extract brew, not even a partial all grain.


-------------------------------------------

1) Is the pilsner (did you spell it wrong above?) really 90L?
or is it 0.9L (which seems much more reasonable to me).
-------------------------------------------

Typo, sorry about the confusion. I know I need to make better notes for others to follow the brew process.




-------------------------------------------
A pure steep should be done at less than 170 to avoid leaching tannins from the grain husks. This leads to astringent beers
-----------------------------------------

Interesting, according to 'the joys of homebrewing' by charlie p. You can seep small amounts of grain before the brew between 160-180 for 30 minutes without the adverse affect of tannins.

Is this information out dated?


-----------------------------------------

I think that the amylase was to allow any unconverted starches to be converted to sugars in the fermenter after the boil
---------------------------------------

I use the amalyse to clear starch haze as it says on the bottle, and according to 'the joys of homebrewing.'


I'll definetly have to take you up on your recommendations for a second batch. I appreciate all the advice.

Grog:
Eh, I was just kind of winging on my own. I don't generally do other's recipes. I kind of think what am in the mood to brew, and try and get the appropriate hops and malt together. I'm still learning which hops are best for this kind of beer and which kind are better for flavoring, etc. Thanks for the suggestion.



Oh, and yes, the corn grits. The joys of home brewing says to boil them for a half hour and then add the converted starches to the boil. I believe the starches should be in the water and that the corn grits left overs could be thrown away, but the one line in the book on it is a little ambigious.

so, what I do, is toss the corn grits in the boil for the full hour. I put them in 'grain bags' so that I can easily pull them out other wise the clog the strainer.

Is there something wrong with that method?

[BrewDog]

Interesting, according to 'the joys of homebrewing' by charlie p. You can seep small amounts of grain before the brew between 160-180 for 30 minutes without the adverse affect of tannins. Is this info outdated.

Yes. Everyone pretty much agrees that 170 or so is the cutoff for tannin extraction.

so, what I do, is toss the corn grits in the boil for the full hour. I put them in 'grain bags' so that I can easily pull them out other wise the clog the strainer.

Is there something wrong with that method?

You want to boil the grits separately, then add that to the mash.
This is to prepare the starches for conversion. This is essentially the same as a decoction:

1) add about the same amount of base malt to the grits.
2) add about 1.25 quarts per pound of the mixture.l
3) bring this mixture up to 153 and let it sit for 15 minutes.
4) after it sat, bring the whole thing up to a boil and boil it for 20-30 mins.

Once that is done, you then add the mixture back to the main mash.

I'd suggest using Flaked Maize (also called Flaked Corn) instead of grits in a partial mash. the amount of base grain required for all the conversions gets to the point that you are basically doing an all grain batch with a little extract. Flaked maize doesn't require this "cereal cook" step, so you can add it directly to the main mash without cooking it first.

[Grog]

Originally posted by xian 1g
Grog:
Oh, and yes, the corn grits. The joys of home brewing says to boil them for a half hour and then add the converted starches to the boil. I believe the starches should be in the water and that the corn grits left overs could be thrown away, but the one line in the book on it is a little ambigious.

so, what I do, is toss the corn grits in the boil for the full hour. I put them in 'grain bags' so that I can easily pull them out other wise the clog the strainer.

Is there something wrong with that method? [/B]

The starch to sugar conversion happens between 145°F - 160°F. Boiling is at 212°F (depending on altitude). BrewDog is right, you need to boil the grits to gelatinize them, then dough them in with the rest of your mash. A cereal mash is a PITA so flaked maize would be a better choice (or if you want to skip the middle man use a few ounces of corn sugar). You will probably get a starch haze, but I am guessing your beer will be dark enough to mask it (not to mention strong enough!!!)

170°F is okay for crystal and roasted/toasted malts but too hot for the enzymes in base (pilsner, pale, or pale ale) malt to convert the starches into sugars. A mini mash (which is what you were doing) should be done between 150 & 160°F.

It looks as though it is time for you to look into all-grain brewing ;)!

[xian 1g]

Once again thanks for all the help. I really appreciate it.

I'm working on going all grain.. I've been reading and reading that section of the book the past couple of days.

I'm just deciding if I want to make my own mashtun/ lautertun or if I want shell out a grand for cheapest 10 gal all steel pots sculpture from morebeer.com

I could buy all the kettles and false bottoms, etc., that I need, and I've got a tig welder that I could make my own stand with... but, that still comes out to be about grand in kettles.


ahhhh, decisions... it's killing me. I really like the look of the sculptures, and with one of those, a conical fermenter, the keggerator all in one of the basement rooms I'd really feel like I have my own microbrewery..... that looks nice. vs. I spent $100 dollars and made this ghetto stuff that works...

[danno]

a grand for pots? that's kinda expensive... Northern Brewer (http://www.northernbrewer.com/kettles.html) has some new "mega pots", three of the 60 qt (15 gallons) would be $450, you can put weldless fittings, all stainless, and bazooka fittings for about $50 more (each pot)...

[xian 1g]

Yeah, I'm still doing my searching and pricing... I think I'm leaning on buying the plans for the 1550 and building it. That frees up cash for the pots.

They also do have cheaper 14 gal pots at b3's. I was looking at the one lable hot liqour tank and mashtun. those are 280 and 260. Nice pots, come with false bottoms, temp gauges, and a water level sight.

They have the exact same pots just labeled as 14 gal, that can be fitted with the temp gauge. I don't think they come with false bottoms though.. and those are $180.