Oxyclean?

[Dextolen]

While using stuff like one-step and b-brite, I can't help but notice that this stuff appears to be very similar to Oxyclean, of which we have a giant tub in our laundry room.

Is Oxyclean suitable for santizing?

[danno]

I wouldn't use it... what are the blue things?

go buy some Star-San, you won't regret it.

[Dextolen]

LOL

Point taken!

[Derekt2]

go buy some Star-San, you won't regret it. [/B][/QUOTE]

You might. IMO, StarSan is over-hyped and over-priced. And it foams way too much. Just my .02

[c0nsumer]

Two things...

One, here (http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=15010001) is the MSDS for Oxiclean Multi Purpose Stain Remover. It lists the ingredients as Sodium Carbonate and Sodium Percarbonate, which if memory serves right, is the same as B-Brite. I'm not sure what the little blue bits are, but I personally don't notice a fragrence, so I'd imagine they are just a bit of dye to make the product not appear to be a plain white powder.

I personally use Oxiclean for washing all my brewing equipment, and I've been doing so since my second batch. I've never had a problem with it, and it does an excellent job getting things clean.

Two, I use Star-San, and I think it's a lot nicer than iodine-based sanitizers. I don't believe in any sort of one-step cleaner/sanitizer. I don't know about you, but I don't want detergents / surfactants lingering on my gear when it's going to touch wort.

Star-San is a food grade sanitizer which uses phospohric acid to kill off any living things. As phosphoric acid is naturally found in beer, I feel safe adding trace amounts of it to the beer. I don't find the foam to be a big deal if you let pieces of glassware drain before filling them. (Bottles, carboys, etc.)

As the mixed Star-San solution doesn't degrage with time like iodine-based sanitizers, you can store some in a bottle and provided it stays below a certain PH level, it'll still be good. It also doesn't degrate with heat, so you can use warm water for mixing the sanitizer. Personally I like doing this, as then I'm not working with my arms in a bucket of cold water sanitizing bottles for a few hours. Oh, and it doesn't stain, either. Just don't get the unmixed Star-San on your hands, else you're likely to get some decent chemical burns.

[Derekt2]

Star-San is a food grade sanitizer which uses phospohric acid to kill off any living things. As phosphoric acid is naturally found in beer, I feel safe adding trace amounts of it to the beer. I don't find the foam to be a big deal if you let pieces of glassware drain before filling them. (Bottles, carboys, etc.)

Iodophor is a food-grade sanitizer used in the food-bev industry for longer than Five Star has existed. Based in iodine -- and often mixed with phosphoric acid -- iodine also occurs in our food stream, even added to salt to fight scurvy. Iodophor acts by passing through the cell membrane and poisoning the organism from inside out. Star-San attacks it from the outside and is less effective unless contact rate is very high. Don't get me wrong, Star-San is decent but Five Star has done it's best job in marketing, especially to homebrewers. It is not as well regarded in pro-brewing because for pure economy most use sodium hydroxide which is pennies-to-the -dollar. Plus, Star Sans foaminess in a CIP cycle can drive you nuts and that is why they later came out with a low foaming version -- too many complaints.

As the mixed Star-San solution doesn't degrage with time like iodine-based sanitizers, you can store some in a bottle and provided it stays below a certain PH level, it'll still be good. It also doesn't degrate with heat, so you can use warm water for mixing the sanitizer. Personally I like doing this, as then I'm not working with my arms in a bucket of cold water sanitizing bottles for a few hours. Oh, and it doesn't stain, either. Just don't get the unmixed Star-San on your hands, else you're likely to get some decent chemical burns.

With the exception of the staining issue, all of the above are true for iodophor as well. OTOH, it will not sensitize your skin nor does it cost nearly as much. Even if the shelf-life of a working solution of iodophor is less than Star-San it is so much cheaper it really doesn't matter. I don't know what the cost is these days in the HB trade but Star-San used to cost $5 for 4 oz. which was I think enough for 20 gallons of solution. Iodophor is/was $12 a liter and made hundreds of gallons.

Here's another example: B-Brite is a "cleaner" that is really a sanitizer but FDA will not permit labeling it that way for reasons not worth going into it. PBW is not dramatically better yet it costs much, much more because it is marketed as a powdered sanitizer. Finally, and I'm a little rusty on this, I believe that One-Step actually breaks down as it drains and dries and becomes inert by the time the fermenter, for example, is used.

BTW, I'm not picking a fight here but I am hoping that people can see that a lot of this is really just shrewd marketing on the part of Five Star. The products *are* good but the cost is not justified (and, btw, these products are much cheaper to the industry. When Five Star decided to re-package into smaller quantities they really nailed it to the HBers. I can't remember but I think I saw once that a small bottle of SS was something like 400% more than a jug to a brewer -- but don't quote me on that, it's been a long time and I'm sure things have changed.)

Again, just my .02

[c0nsumer]

I agree with what you said, I just do find iodine-based products to be a real pain to work with. Also, a large bottle of Star San (I'm not home so I can't look up the size, but I think it's around 32oz) cost something like $15 or $17 at my local homebrew store. I find it *so* much easier to work with than iodphor that I think the additional cost is justified. Figuring that I only need around 1 1/2 ounces per batch of beer (that's three five gallon batches of sanitizer) the per-batch cost is only around $0.80. With the ability to use warm water and store some leftovers in a spray bottle for one-off sanitizer, I think it's worth it.

It may cost more, but I think the time savings is worth it.

I still do use iodphor once in a while, but typically only in the blowoff bucket where I don't want things growing, but want to cut down on foaming.

But, that's just my opinion...

[Derekt2]

Also, a large bottle of Star San (I'm not home so I can't look up the size, but I think it's around 32oz) cost something like $15 or $17 at my local homebrew store.

If that's true that would be a pretty big reduction in cost over time. I haven't used it since it came out 6-7? years ago but when it did it was expensive as crap. I vividly remember these little bottles for five bucks that you used up almost immediately and I could never understand the fuss. Fifteen bucks for a big bottle is more reasonable and more in-line with other sanitizers.

[HogieWan]

At $0.98 a gallon, I like using bleach

[c0nsumer]

Originally posted by Derekt2
If that's true that would be a pretty big reduction in cost over time. I haven't used it since it came out 6-7? years ago but when it did it was expensive as crap. I vividly remember these little bottles for five bucks that you used up almost immediately and I could never understand the fuss. Fifteen bucks for a big bottle is more reasonable and more in-line with other sanitizers.

Oh, that makes sense then... Yeah, it really was something like $15 or $17. When I went to buy sanitizer last time I was either going to get the $12 large bottle of Iodphor or the slightly pricier Star-San. I went for the Star-San and was pretty happy that I did...

I guess we could both always go the winemaker's way and use potassium metabisulfate? Best part about that is you could not boil your wort, add the metabisulfate, wait two days for it to outgas, then pitch the yeast.

That's exactly how I plan to do my cider once it's all in season here.

Or mix up a solution and use it within a few hours to sanitize your gear...

[Derekt2]

If I remember that's not how it works. I think sm has to be in contact with acidity like must before there is a reaction. Camden is water would be useless. But then I have never made wine -- I just remembre picking that up somewhere along the way.

[Dextolen]

Again, this has all been very informative!

[danno]

Derek, at Northern Brewer, a quart of Star San is $11.95, and then subtract your club discount of 10%, I'm looking at $10.75 for what will last me well over a year... I'm standing by my soapbox... :D

[c0nsumer]

Just to add a bit to this... I just checked, and my 32oz bottle of Star-San cost $15.95 at my local homebrew supply store, Cap'n'Cork (http://www.capncorkhombrew.com/) in Macomb, MI. I've used it for the last six batches I've made and bottled, and I have just over 20oz left.

I've probably used less than I expected because I will typically only make up 2.5 gallons (uses 1/2oz of Star-San) on brew day and the day I transfer to secondary, and then 5 gallons (uses 1oz of Star-San) on bottling day.

Thinking about it, I could probably save 1/2oz per batch by storing the leftover sanitizer from brew day in the carboy which I'll use for secondary, and then using that sanitizer the day I transfer the beer around.

[Dextolen]

Cap n' Cork is a great store. Charlie rocks.

[c0nsumer]

Originally posted by Dextolen
Cap n' Cork is a great store. Charlie rocks.

Heh, I didn't notice your location... Where do you live?

I'm almost right at the corner of 22 Mile and Schoenherr...

[Grog]

I bought 1 gallon of Sani Clean (non foaming Star San) for $22.00 for the gallon. Now you have to use twice the amount of Sani Clean per five gallons, but I have only used 1/2 gallon for this last year (20+ batches). I do however use it frugally, I will sanitize 3 or 4 carboys with the same mix and then use the same mix to clean my fridges and stuff.

[Dextolen]

Originally posted by c0nsumer
Heh, I didn't notice your location... Where do you live?

I'm almost right at the corner of 22 Mile and Schoenherr...

I'm way out in Oxford! I prefer going to CnC over Kuhnhenn's Homebrew shop for my supplies, the service is just friendlier, more approachable. Both are good stores, but CnC wins for me being somewhat of a noobie (7 batches to date)

[c0nsumer]

Originally posted by Dextolen
I'm way out in Oxford! I prefer going to CnC over Kuhnhenn's Homebrew shop for my supplies, the service is just friendlier, more approachable. Both are good stores, but CnC wins for me being somewhat of a noobie (7 batches to date)

Oh, interesting... I work right around M-59 and I-75. I've actually only done seven batches myself too, but thanks to all the info available online and such, things have worked out good thus far.

A friend of mine actually has a shop up in Oxford and lives none too far away from there... I tend to get up there from time to time.

Kuhnhenn's isn't bad, and while I've only looked in the window, it doesn't look as clean nor as well stocked as CnC by any stretch. Although their beer is pretty good... I think I'm more of a fan of Dragonmead, though.

[Dextolen]

Joins c0nsumer in a rousing round of "It's a Small World After All"

Great news on your batch success, I too am without a flop. I'm doing extract/and steeped grains and quite happy at that level of involvement.

If you also play D&D we may have to join forces.

[c0nsumer]

Originally posted by Dextolen
Joins c0nsumer in a rousing round of "It's a Small World After All"

Great news on your batch success, I too am without a flop. I'm doing extract/and steeped grains and quite happy at that level of involvement.

Heh, thank you... I can't say I had any flops, as the two steeped grain batches I've done just weren't up to my standards. But the partial mashes and extract + herbs/fruit/whatever are VERY on-point.