Lambic Beer

[neelyjr1]

So I got a question about the exact classification of Lamibic beers. Are they more likely to be classified as Ales, Lagers, or possibly their own separate class of beer. My thought would be a third separate category, but I want some other opinions too. Any ideas?:confused:

[danno]

they're generally classified as an ale, but an argument can be made that due to the wild bacterias used (or commercially produced bacterias/blends) they could be classified separately...

my favorite bacteria name? pediococcus damnosis...

[chazwicke]

A name like that could cause me not to drink Lambics anymore! I love some lambics.

[neelyjr1]

Thanks, that is kind of what I thought, I just wanted someone else to confirm my idea.

[JorisP]

You think P. damnosus is bad? In some lambics, a cloacae was found - forgot whether it was Aerobacter or Enterobacillus. Now THAT's to put one off his appetite, I'd say!
:D
On the main question, traditionally lambics are always put in a different category: the spontaneous fermentation, rather than bottom- ("lagers") or topfermenting (ales) beers.
Cheers, Joris

[danno]

Joris, I'll disagree with you, only because there are so very few straight, traditional lambics available. the majority of the p-lambics, guezes, Oud Bruins, Flanders, etc... all use some sort of an ale yeast, and then incorporate bacteria for souring...

(mmm, Flanders Red... I think it's time for a Duchesse de Bourgogne...)

[JorisP]

That is an interesting argument. So, if I catch your drift, you want the beerlovers to orientate themselves on the bad examples too? Because so many don't do it the right way anymore, let's be defaitist, and throw it all on one big mess with the bad uns. I suggest you deliver this point of view to Jean Van Roy from Cantillon and Armand Debelder of 3 Fonteinen - or the brothers Girardin. All they and us Belgian beerlovers have fought for all these years - decennia - has become nuts, because some transcendent homebrewers in the US of A have decided they want to brew lambic too, but in the "fast" way.
Mind you, I'm not condescending towards American brewers, or even "plambic" brewers - I have recently tried Russian River Supplication, and it was outstanding.
But I will never yield to the idea that because all the big boys - or the imitators - do it one way, the traditional way has lost its superiority.
Joris Pattyn, co-writer of Lambic/kland

[HogieWan]

US homebrewers HAVE to use packaged yeast to get the flavor profiles found in wild yeast in Belgium because the wild yeast in the US is different

[neelyjr1]

So then would it be safe to say that more modern lambic styles would be closer to ales, while more traditional lambic styles would be there own class of beer?

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by danno


(mmm, Flanders Red... I think it's time for a Duchesse de Bourgogne...)


Man! You said it! A fine beer. I long for the Rodenbach Grand Cru of the old days. Another fine Flanders Red. While I do enjoy the current available Rodenbach occasionally on draft, The old version was superior. It might have been in my top 10.


Joris, Would you be so kind as to change the color of your font to something brighter. These old eyes have a tough time reading the green. Thanks!!

[danno]

Originally posted by JorisP
That is an interesting argument. So, if I catch your drift, you want the beerlovers to orientate themselves on the bad examples too? Because so many don't do it the right way anymore, let's be defaitist, and throw it all on one big mess with the bad uns. I suggest you deliver this point of view to Jean Van Roy from Cantillon and Armand Debelder of 3 Fonteinen - or the brothers Girardin. All they and us Belgian beerlovers have fought for all these years - decennia - has become nuts, because some transcendent homebrewers in the US of A have decided they want to brew lambic too, but in the "fast" way.
Mind you, I'm not condescending towards American brewers, or even "plambic" brewers - I have recently tried Russian River Supplication, and it was outstanding.
But I will never yield to the idea that because all the big boys - or the imitators - do it one way, the traditional way has lost its superiority.
Joris Pattyn, co-writer of Lambic/kland no, I never for a minute meant that we beer lovers should orient ourselves towards "bad" examples. I think even a casual glance at what I and others here post about real beers should be more than enough to defend myself against that charge... here's my question for you though, ales and lagers are usually separated by whether they top ferment or bottom ferment. where does a real lambic ferment?

neely, "modern" and "traditional" don't exactly correlate to each other. a "traditional", or what we'll call the straight/wild fermented lambic, can go into a separate category, but they're still being produced and sold today, so you can't really call everything else "modern". I think I struck Joris' nerve by lumping in the pseudo-lambics and all of the other blends (like Lindemann's, which most likely generates the same scorn we reserve for Bud) with the real things...

[JorisP]

here's my question for you though, ales and lagers are usually separated by whether they top ferment or bottom ferment. where does a real lambic ferment?

That's a good question - luckily I can answer that one, more or less. As you know the "top" and "bottom" refer to the behaviour of the yeast during fermentation. Taken like that MOST of the fermentation seems to take place at the top (you'll see that white foam erupts at the bunghole on top of the lambic casks when visiting a lambic brewery). But that is mainly an aspect of the first part of fermentation, done by wild varieties of Saccharomyces . The rest of the fermentation is much more hidden from sight. Thanks to research in the eighties at KUL, we now know that their are four major phases in lambic fermentation (depending on the main reigning bacteria). I cannot relate them all by heart, I've read them now at least 3 books, but to the best of my knowledge, the only English language version is in Lambic/kland by Tim Webb (the writer of the GBG to Belgium). If you're interested... The main thing which separates lambicfermentation from "normal" ales or "lagers" (I do not like that term) lies just in this sequential fermentation taking place during minimum 6 months. And of course, that no cultured yeast is added to the batch. That last is the thing that is more and more disappearing, I know. Even people as Frank Boon use additions of cultured yeast. But at least, they leave the rest of the stepped fermentation as it ought to be in the casks and pipes.

Which brings me to the plambics. As I said in the earlier post, I am not condescending the tries by people as Vinnie Cilurzo, Tomme Arthur, or the people at Iron Hill and Bitter End. They make wonderful beers; that they do not make real lambics is a matter of time. Before one can have this kind of carefully interacting bacteriastrains in the woodwork of ones' place one needs time - and I'm not talking about a couple of years but about several decennia. Modern science can speed the thing up (it took centuries in the Payottenland), but it will take easily 40-50 years of trials IMO, before something really endemically consistent comes out. Although, the Supplication..

PS Chazwicke, is this more acceptable? ;)

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by JorisP


PS Chazwicke, is this more acceptable?



Yes Thanks! :)

[JorisP]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Yes Thanks! :)

Brewers' Art? = "Volker in B'more", or am I barmy?

[sundontlie]

referring to the classification question...
doesn't a lambic have to be 30% wheat by law?
i've seen them classified as wheat beers on some websites..
just food for thought..

gueze is one of my absolute favorite types of beer (for those who may not know a gueze is a blend of lambics), as a matter of fact i just placed an order for our next beer night.. these being gueze i cant find anywhere around new york metro..

for those looking for lambic/gueze i sugggest www.belgianshop.com - pretty nice site

REF DESCRIPTION QUANTITY PRICE COST
BB28195P Drie Fonteinen Oude Gueuze 6° - 3/4L 1 $14.00
BB21184 Belle-Vue Gueuze 5.2°-3/4L 1 $8.00
BB21268 Gueuze Boon 6°-37.5Cl 1 $4.50
BB21398 Gueuze Mort Subite 4.3°-37 cl 1 $4.30
BB28198P Oud Beersel Vieille Old Gueuze 6° - 37,5cl 1 $10.00
BB28142 Timmermans Tradition Caveau 5.5° -1/3L 1 $3.60
BB26004 Timmermans Tradition Gueuze 5°C-33 C 1 $3.60
BB23112 Souvenirs Gueuze 4° - 25 Cl 1 $2.90
Subtotal $50.90
Total $50.90

[JorisP]

doesn't a lambic have to be 30% wheat by law?

Yes, they do - and by law, as you say. Remark that in lambic, just as in Belgian witbier, we're talking UNMALTED wheatflour, not malted wheat as in Germany. Some Belgian wheats have malted wheat in them, but none of the lambics, as far as I know.
Cheers, Joris

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by sundontlie
referring to the classification question...
doesn't a lambic have to be 30% wheat by law?
i've seen them classified as wheat beers on some websites..
just food for thought..

gueze is one of my absolute favorite types of beer (for those who may not know a gueze is a blend of lambics), as a matter of fact i just placed an order for our next beer night.. these being gueze i cant find anywhere around new york metro..

for those looking for lambic/gueze i sugggest www.belgianshop.com - pretty nice site

REF DESCRIPTION QUANTITY PRICE COST
BB28195P Drie Fonteinen Oude Gueuze 6° - 3/4L 1 $14.00
BB21184 Belle-Vue Gueuze 5.2°-3/4L 1 $8.00
BB21268 Gueuze Boon 6°-37.5Cl 1 $4.50
BB21398 Gueuze Mort Subite 4.3°-37 cl 1 $4.30
BB28198P Oud Beersel Vieille Old Gueuze 6° - 37,5cl 1 $10.00
BB28142 Timmermans Tradition Caveau 5.5° -1/3L 1 $3.60
BB26004 Timmermans Tradition Gueuze 5°C-33 C 1 $3.60
BB23112 Souvenirs Gueuze 4° - 25 Cl 1 $2.90
Subtotal $50.90
Total $50.90



I'm suprised that you can't find all of those around NY. WE can find most easily here in DC

[sundontlie]

lindemans cuvee rene
lindemans gueze
girardin gueze (sometimes)
oude gueze
cantillon organic gueze

i can get a lot of lambics from all these and many more brands but its almost impossible to find guezes around here.. and i'm willing to travel, theres a place called half time beverage in poughkeepsie n.y. that is pretty much the best selection i've ever seen, check out their website its pretty sick.. www.halftimebeverage.com - even has some killer taps..

but as far as finding gueze is concerned, its about as rare and esoteric as the brewing of the stuff is...

[chazwicke]

Well I'm with ya. I like the Lambics. Especially the Krieks and Gueuzes. None of the sweet stuff though. I also like the Flemish Red Ales.

[sundontlie]

i'll take some pics of our upcoming gueze night, maybe i'll post them or change the avatar or something, we should be able to sample about twelve of them, dont know if i really have the brains in my tastebuds to understand and rate them quite yet

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I also like the Flemish Red Ales.

I have yet to secure a bottle of gueze, but I'd love to. I've had some flemish reds and may eventually try my hand at making one.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by HogieWan
I've had some flemish reds and may eventually try my hand at making one.

YUM!

[CiderJoe]

Chaz, I'm with you on the Rodenbach. You're making me cry by mentioning it. Can't get it here.

But thanks to Sundontlie, I might have a place I can order it.

Oh, sorry for catching this so far after everyone else stopped posting.

Cider

[chazwicke]

The keg of Rodenbach at Cap City Oktoberfest yesterday blew early. Hopefully they had more. I love the stuff. I wish it was as good as the old version though. That Rodenbach Grand Cru would be in my top 5 beers of all time.

[neelyjr1]

I got the privilege of pouring that wonderful Rodenbach yesterday, and I thought the first keg was going to kick a lot earlier than it did. I tell you what though, pouring that for three hours and then finally getting to have a glass for myself just made it that much better.

[chazwicke]

I wish I had known it was a realbeer member there. I got one glass but my second was when it blew. Was that you pouring? I had the Hennepin since I couln't have the 2nd Rodenbach. I guess it was about 2:30. One guy called on the walkie talkie saying they needed more Rodenbach "Stat".

[neelyjr1]

Yeah, that was my roommate and I pouring, he is a realbeer member as well, j8ke. I was the taller one with the black Pirates hat on. The Hennipen was giving us a lot of trouble yesterday as well; there was a leak in the line that was letting air into the tap. We left around 5 or so and I think the second keg was just about kicked as well.

[JorisP]

I do not know if you realise this, but Rodenbach Grand Cru, as well as Rodenbach are filtered and pasteurised beers. That they still present such an overwhelming flavour is all the more remarkable for it.
However, in the 70's, the then still independent Rodenbach brewery made a few exceptional bottlings of Rodenbach Grand Cru, straight from the wooden pipes, unfiltered and raw. Those rank amongst the best beers of all time, IMO. They were presented in 75cl bottles, with paper wrapping, "pijama's" as they're known over here.
I once presented Palm with a petition, asking them to reintroduce this marvel. They were very polite, but nothing happened.
However, since about a year, there is one pub on the Roeselare market square (if I'm well informed - I haven't had the time to check out, shame on me!) that sells unfiltered Rodenbach from a handpump.
If you're in the neighbourhood, I would call this a warm recommendation...
Cheers, Joris

[ontap78]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chazwicke
[B] I long for the Rodenbach Grand Cru of the old days.]I had a Rodenbach Grand Cru at the Gollum whem I was in Amsterdam about a year ago. Fantastic.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by JorisP
I do not know if you realise this, but Rodenbach Grand Cru, as well as Rodenbach are filtered and pasteurised beers. That they still present such an overwhelming flavour is all the more remarkable for it.
However, in the 70's, the then still independent Rodenbach brewery made a few exceptional bottlings of Rodenbach Grand Cru, straight from the wooden pipes, unfiltered and raw. Those rank amongst the best beers of all time, IMO. They were presented in 75cl bottles, with paper wrapping, "pijama's" as they're known over here.
I once presented Palm with a petition, asking them to reintroduce this marvel. They were very polite, but nothing happened.
However, since about a year, there is one pub on the Roeselare market square (if I'm well informed - I haven't had the time to check out, shame on me!) that sells unfiltered Rodenbach from a handpump.
If you're in the neighbourhood, I would call this a warm recommendation...
Cheers, Joris

I can only imagine how good that must have been. As I said before up until the early 1990s the Rodenbach Grand Cru was about as good as it gets. Certainly in my top 5 beers of all time. It is still a wonderful beer and is available several places locally on tap. (Brickskeller). But I would have loved the Pijama bottle I'm sure.