Lagering

[fidcastro]

I am thinking about brewing an octoberfest next week, but I have never made a lager before.

Here is my question... Can I just put a glass carboy in my kegerator for the lagering process?

I hope this question isn't too stupid...

[wild]

I'm also planning to brew my first lager this weekend. If ya'll don't mind, I'll add a few more questions to the list.
[list=1]
I've heard some pitch the yeast at ale temp until fermentation takes and I've heard some pitch at the yeast's desired fermentation temp. Which is best?
If the yeast is pitched between 52-58°F, is a diacetyl rest necessary?
How fast is the temp dropped between primary to secondary to lager?
[/list=1]
Any help would be appreciated.

Wild

[HarkJohnny]

I'll try this one:

Can I just put a glass carboy in my kegerator for the lagering process?
Glass Carboy in the kegerator is what I do, not having a dedicated lagering unit. Set the temp controller to desired temp.

I've heard some pitch the yeast at ale temp until fermentation takes and I've heard some pitch at the yeast's desired fermentation temp. Which is best?
I've heard both. I chilled my Okto down to temp, then pitched. But mostly because I was waiting for my starter to get further along.

If the yeast is pitched between 52-58°F, is a diacetyl rest necessary?
prob not. I did my rest after primary ferm was done... just left it in the carboy for two extra days @ about 55-57°

How fast is the temp dropped between primary to secondary to lager?
I would think this shouldn't matter much. After primary you're more or less conditioning and not really fermenting even though some ferm will still continue.

BrewMonkey? others thoughts??

also see this thread (http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7668&perpage=15&pagenumber=1) where alot of this is discussed

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by HarkJohnny
How fast is the temp dropped between primary to secondary to lager?
I would think this shouldn't matter much. After primary you're more or less conditioning and not really fermenting even though some ferm will still continue.

I've heard it should be 1-2 degrees per day as not to shock the yeast.

[wild]

Thanks for the help.

Wild

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by HogieWan
I've heard it should be 1-2 degrees per day as not to shock the yeast.

That would be 1-2 degrees per hour to not shock the yeast. Going 1-2 a day would give you quite some time to hit the proper temp to start laggering. I prefer to go 1 degree per hour myself and sometimes 1 per 2-3 hours if I have the time.

[HogieWan]

After posting, I thought that seemed a bit too long, but as an ale maker, I didn't know any better.

[haaseg]

An interesting note on what temperature to pitch at. I couldn't decide, so I did an experiment. I had two carboys of pils, each with about 3.5 gallons in it.

I set out two smackpacks. One of them expanded nicely, the other not at all.

I decided to pitch the swolen smackpack at 52, thinking that the yeast might need the extra kick. The other pack I pitched at 70 and hoped that the yeast wasn't bad.

The one I pitched at 70 had moderate activity within 12 hours.

The one I pitched at 52 had virtually no activity after 48 hours. <edit> that is to say no activity during the first 48 hours... I was checking it regularly</edit>

I subsequently took it out of the lagering fridge. This was last night. This morning, the temperature had risen to about 64 and it looked like just a tiny bit of activity was going on. I'm looking forward to checking it when I get home from work.

My theory is that I just shocked the yeast by going straight from 70 to 52. I wondered if it would be a problem right before I did it, but I rationalized that the yeast's active temperature is 48-58, it should be relieved - not tortured.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by haaseg
...

My theory is that I just shocked the yeast by going straight from 70 to 52. I wondered if it would be a problem right before I did it, but I rationalized that the yeast's active temperature is 48-58, it should be relieved - not tortured.

If you're going to pitch at ferment temp you almost have to make a .5 gallon starter. I make .5 gallon starters and let them ferment at the temp at which I intend to pitch. It avoids the shock you describe above.

[HogieWan]

I think you're supposed to slowly drop the yeast temp before pitching.

[haaseg]

Well, the second carboy was at 70 when I got home and bubbling away. I put it back in the lagerer (is that a word?).

I originally had the smackpack at 52, but it never did anything. When it finally started swelling at 70, perhaps I should have put it in the lagerer and let it slowly cool to 52 before pitching it.

<rant>
I'm not following this 1-2 hours per degree or 1-2 degrees per hour thing. I just put the carboy in the freezer with the temp relay set to 52, and it went from 70 to 60 in the first 12 hours, then from 60 to 52 in the next 12. I figure I'm somewhere just under 1 degree an hour. I don't know how anyone could realistically lower the temerature on their relay every hour through 18 degrees. I have a job, and when I'm not at work, I find it difficult to stop whatever I'm doing every hour to twiddle a knob on a device that has a +/- 3 degree differential anyway.
</rant>

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by haaseg
Well, the second carboy was at 70 when I got home and bubbling away. I put it back in the lagerer (is that a word?).

I originally had the smackpack at 52, but it never did anything. When it finally started swelling at 70, perhaps I should have put it in the lagerer and let it slowly cool to 52 before pitching it.

<rant>
I'm not following this 1-2 hours per degree or 1-2 degrees per hour thing. I just put the carboy in the freezer with the temp relay set to 52, and it went from 70 to 60 in the first 12 hours, then from 60 to 52 in the next 12. I figure I'm somewhere just under 1 degree an hour. I don't know how anyone could realistically lower the temerature on their relay every hour through 18 degrees. I have a job, and when I'm not at work, I find it difficult to stop whatever I'm doing every hour to twiddle a knob on a device that has a +/- 3 degree differential anyway.
</rant>

More info - I start the starter at room temp (approx 70F) then lower to ~50F in preparation for pitching at 45-48F. For the starter your not worrying about off flavors just want to increase cell count and acclimate the yeast.

Remember a smack pack and a starter differ by millions and millions of cells. The problem with pitching only a smack pack at ferment temp is that the yeast still has to reproduce a considerable amount(before fermentation begins) and that is slowed by the temp - some cells do become dormant but you'll still be OK. That is what mostly accounts for the slowness of the start. Starters are the BEST way to go with a lager.

I never follow that 1-2 degrees per hour deal either. I figure that the heat lost in a lagerer(your word) is probably pretty close to 3-5 degrees per hour and that's close enough for me. So I usually just turn it down to the temp I want. I have never had a fermenting lager flocc out from too rapid a heat reduction.

[haaseg]

Thanks for the info. That really helps.

I've never done a starter... this is my first lager. I guess I'll have to start researching that. I can't buy any more equipment any time soon though... I already bought a new brew kettle and a kegging system this summer.

<edit>nevermind... I see that I can use a glass gallon cider jug or something similar that my carboy bung will fit into... excellent</edit>

[Grog]

Originally posted by Fast_Eddy
More info - I start the starter at room temp (approx 70F) then lower to ~50F in preparation for pitching at 45-48F. For the starter your not worrying about off flavors just want to increase cell count and acclimate the yeast.


I never follow that 1-2 degrees per hour deal either. I figure that the heat lost in a lagerer(your word) is probably pretty close to 3-5 degrees per hour and that's close enough for me. So I usually just turn it down to the temp I want. I have never had a fermenting lager flocc out from too rapid a heat reduction.

This is something I never even considered, I think you just saved me a whole Saturday.

How fast do you chill the starter from 70° to 50°F?

[brewmonkey]

When pitching a lager you should pitch it at 62-68F and bring the temp down when you have signs of active fermentation. This will ensure a decreased lag time and a healthy fermentation and if you do it properly you will not have any problems with the raised temps for the first few hours.

When fermentation is complete raise the temp back up to 60F for a diacetyl rest and hold it for 48 hours before you bring the temp down for conditioning.

[haaseg]

Originally posted by Grog
This is something I never even considered, I think you just saved me a whole Saturday.

How fast do you chill the starter from 70° to 50°F?

Quick, if you get the starter going right now, it'll be ready to pitch by Saturday night.

I know he said that he didn't pay attention to the cooling time, but I he was referring to an already fermenting lager. If you think of your starter (DME + yeast) as a mini lager, the same would apply -- although something that small would probably chill a lot faster than 5 gallons...

[Grog]

Originally posted by haaseg
Quick, if you get the starter going right now, it'll be ready to pitch by Saturday night.

Heh, it's already going for tomorrow night.

[haaseg]

While we're on the subject of yeast starters...

What's the rule on re-use/splitting.

Can I split a starter, add a little more DME to one half and then pitch it. Store the other half in the fridge and then add more DME to that half like a month later?

If once you have a starter going, you cool the yeast down to near freezing, will it just lie dormant until you raise the temperature and add more DME?

How long can it lay dormant in the fridge before it won't come back to life? I'm assuming this would kind of be the equivelant of storing a smackpack for months on end... the longer you store it, the longer it takes to come back to life.

[neldor19]

Im brewing a Kolsch today.I was thinking Ill pitch at 70 degrees and once I get a good active ferment drop the temp to 60 degrees.After secondary maybe Lager it at 50 degrees?Does this sound ok?What temp and when should I cold condition it?Do I need a Diacetyl rest with a Kolsch?How long should it cold condition?This is the first beer Im going to be entering in a compitition so I really want to get it right:D

[Grog]

Originally posted by neldor19
Im brewing a Kolsch today.I was thinking Ill pitch at 70 degrees and once I get a good active ferment drop the temp to 60 degrees.After secondary maybe Lager it at 50 degrees?Does this sound ok?What temp and when should I cold condition it?Do I need a Diacetyl rest with a Kolsch?How long should it cold condition?This is the first beer Im going to be entering in a compitition so I really want to get it right:D

If you are ferming at 60°F you will not need a diacetyl rest since 60°F is the temp you would raise it to. If you could get the temp down a bit more during lagering I think that would get you closer to where you want to go. If you are using Wyeast 2565 or 1007, you may have to drop the temp in the low thirties for several (6-8) weeks to get the yeast to settle out if you do not use finings. Both are terrible when it comes to floccing out.

HTH

[neldor19]

Ill be using gelatin finings for this batch,for the first time.Ahhhh.....when would those finings be added,to the secondary?Will finings cut down the Lagering time to less than 6 weeks?

[Otis_The_Drunk]

I use Whirlfloc for finings.... works out really well for me

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by Otis_The_Drunk
I use Whirlfloc for finings.... works out really well for me

that's the same as irish moss, right?

[toneyc]

Sort of. It is the active ingredient in Irish Moss (carageenan?) concentrated into an alka-seltzer-like tablet. Much more convenient than Irish Moss, IMHO. You know me, I'm lazy.

:D
Toney.

[Grog]

I have switched from IM to Whirlfloc and have had much better results.

[BrewDog]

The powdered stuff "Super Moss" from 5 star is great, too.