Diacetyl problems

[es1115]

As a newbie to the brewing world, my first batch has been conditioning in bottles for about three weeks now; it is an amber - lawnmower style beer brewed from extract with a 30 min. mini mash and liquid yeast. The beer tastes pretty good and the carbonation is just about there, but I have that caramel/butterscotch aroma and it shows up a little in the taste. From the research I have done, it seems that the flavoring comes from diacetyl which can be a culprit from contamination, too warm of a fermentation, or not enough aging. I'm pretty sure contamination is not a problem, but I am in a small college apartment in Texas - my kitchen stays at about 70-72 degrees (might be a tad warm). As far as not enough aging, I'm not sure since this is my first batch. Any ideas or comments would be greatly appreciated; on a brighter note I just bottled a beligian pale and have an IPA in the primary!

Thanks and I'm glad to be a part of the RealBeer Family.

[wortchillergoal]

What yeast did you use? Some yeast strains produce diacetyl flavor as well. That coupled with your temps might be one possible answer.

[es1115]

I believe it was White Labs California Ale liquid yeast

[wortchillergoal]

I have never used White Labs product,availabilty here and not a quality issue, so I don't know it. Don't worry, I am sure there will be others along to offer help as well.

[HogieWan]

Give it more time - If it tastes green, wait a week. And brew more while you're waiting

[steveh]

First of all, is the flavor offensive? If not, you may not have to worry. Many ales have diacetyl in their character and it's an accepted aroma/flavor for the likes of an ESB.

Since there is no true "amber" style in beers (excepting the "hybrid" ambers now listed by the BJCP - N. Germ Alt, Dusseldorf Alt, Calif. Common), other than maybe an Irish Red, there isn't much of a style for you to follow to see if your beer is "off."

I'd agree with Hogie and tell you to let it age a little more, but if the character isn't bothering you - it's fine!

S.

http://www.bjcp.org/styles04/Category9.html#style9D

[danno]

Steve (the diacetyl apologist ;)), you're forgetting 10B, American Amber Ale (http://www.bjcp.org/styles04/Category10.html). sine it was a mini-mash, I'm guessing you had some specialty grains in there, how much, and what were they? the caramel flavor could certainly be from the grains, although butterscotch is usually a dead giveaway for diacetyl. how long did you have it in the primary and/or secondary?

one more comment from the judging perspective, if you're sure it's diacetyl, I'd be hesitant to enter it in a contest, even if it otherwise fits into a style where diacetyl is allowed. I've seen a definite prejudice against diacetyl in various competitions...

and welcome!

[es1115]

The grains steeped were 1/2lb Crystal 40l, 1/2lb Munich malt, and 1/2lb Carapils. I had it in the primary for about 5 days, the seconday for about 8 or 9 and it's been bottled for about 3 weeks. The aroma and flavor are not offensive, luckily, and the beer still tastes pretty good. I'm not planning on entering any competitions or anything like that, but I think this beer could be a lot better with a little less of the aroma/taste. The main reason I am trying to figure this out is because it is my first batch; I'd like to improve with each batch I've brewed. Hopefully the Belgian Pale and the IPA I've done since then will turn out fine. I sure appreciate all of the help.

[Derekt2]

WL American is quite clean and produces little diacetyl and I've never tasted any in my own brews. Plus, and no offense intended here, if your new to brewing you're probably still learning about the components so I wouldn't think you'd be especially perceptive of diacetyl yet.

How big was your boil? I worked for a HB shop for years and the one common newbie problem was overly concentrated boils leading to caramelization of the wort and that tends to give the perception of cramel/butterscotch, especially in the nose. And, btw, the Munich malt might be adding to that as it can have a candy like aroma.

I could be way off base here but that's what I think it might be.

[BrewDog]

WLP 001 is great yeast. I use it often.

One cause of Diacetyl is insufficient aeration prior to pitching.
(Overly warm fermentation can add to the estery flavors, too.)

Basically, whipping the bejeezus out of your wort (after it's been cooled) with a sanitized whisk before pitching will help.

HTH-

[es1115]

I poured the wort very vigourously from the pot into the fermentor with a lot of splashing. I stirred and sloshed pretty good after adding the yeast as well. I did a 2 1/2 gallon boil; from my research this seemed to be the standard amount for most home extract brewers. Would 2 1/2 gallons be too small of a boil?

[Derekt2]

Five gallons would be a better boil size but 2-1/2 is not bad and certainly better than just 1 or 2.

Were you careful to add the extract away from heat (i.e., take the pot off of the burner before adding it)? Did you stir it very well and scrape along the bottom to make sure it was fully dissolved before returning to the boil?

[steveh]

Originally posted by danno
Steve (the diacetyl apologist ;)), you're forgetting 10B, American Amber Ale (http://www.bjcp.org/styles04/Category10.html).

You're absolutely right, and I apologize. But isn't this a recent addition due to the (perceived) popularity of the likes of Leinie's Red and Killian's? Two beers that deceivingly make it look as though you have something interesting in your glass, but...

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by danno
Steve (the diacetyl apologist ;)),

Hey, do you really dislike diacetyl when it's an inoffensive character? Michael Jackson had a whole column on the virtue of diactyl in the right styles in AAB a few months back - worth a read.

S.

[danno]

Originally posted by steveh
Hey, do you really dislike diacetyl when it's an inoffensive character? there's the problem (my problem, anyways), the border between inoffensive and offensive can be pretty small. just wait until you're judging your next contest and you get a beer that smells like the bottom of a bag of cheap microwave buttered popcorn (a diacetyl infection, obviously). kinda ruins it for the "inoffensive" ones later on...

back to ES's beer, I'm with Derek, it could very well just be caramelization you're tasting. I happened to notice that you're not too far from Austin, I'd suggest two things. first, I'm pretty sure that Austin has an active brew club. hook up with them, bring some beer along, and get some of the local experts to review your beer, they will teach you a lot. second, we have two regular posters and homebrewers from Austin, Fast Eddy and ToneyC. I'm pretty sure neither of them would turn down a beer if you asked them politely... :D

[es1115]

Very good advice Danno - I've become a pretty regular question-asker at Austin Homebrew Supply and the guys there are incredible. Im pretty sure that caramelization is not a problem; maybe I'm just nit-picking the beer too much since it's my first. Oh well, the aroma/taste is not offensive and it tastes pretty darn good, so I can't complain too much. Thanks again for all of ya'lls help.

[steveh]

Originally posted by danno
there's the problem (my problem, anyways), the border between inoffensive and offensive can be pretty small. just wait until you're judging your next contest and you get a beer that smells like the bottom of a bag of cheap microwave buttered popcorn (a diacetyl infection, obviously). kinda ruins it for the "inoffensive" ones later on...

No, I know the character - and you're right, that end of the spectrum is just too much, but I've rarely encountered it outside of home-brew unless it's a beer that's been on the tap line too long (which I understand is more than diacetyl and warm fermentation). Fullers ESB, Redhook, even Anchor Steam have nice, underlying diacetyl characters I've grown to expect and appreciate.

S.

[toneyc]

Originally posted by danno
Second, we have two regular posters and homebrewers from Austin, Fast Eddy and ToneyC. I'm pretty sure neither of them would turn down a beer if you asked them politely...

Of course not! How could I maintain my well rounded, ah, character if I refused beer???

:)
Toney.

[Beertracker]

It's not as bad of a problem as it used to be, but the lack of nutrients in DME/LME can inhibit yeast by not allowing them to convert the precursor at normal temps. It's also the reason some "extract" beers finish sweet or under-attenuated. I always suggest that "newbies" invest in a quality yeast nutrient and add a pinch before EOB. Just my 2 cent ramblings! ;)

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by steveh
No, I know the character - and you're right, that end of the spectrum is just too much, but I've rarely encountered it outside of home-brew unless it's a beer that's been on the tap line too long (which I understand is more than diacetyl and warm fermentation). Fullers ESB, Redhook, even Anchor Steam have nice, underlying diacetyl characters I've grown to expect and appreciate.

S.

When you have a buttery pint from a tap it means the line is infected and chances are all the lines are going to be the same way as that comes from a poor cleaning cycle or perhaps a lack of one. When we had a few draft accounts for out IPA I would go hit the different pubs with it about every 3rd week and order a pint to see how the lines were doing. After stopping at one to try my IPA I got worst pint of butter I have ever had. Amazingly the bartender tried to tell me "that's how that beer is supposed to taste." When I explained to him who I was and no it was not supposed to be that way...

Now the distributor is supposed to be cleaning the lines where they have beer on tap but very few of them do so. In this case I cleaned the line and then got on the distro people about it. When I hit that line with the first does of PBW it was like sludge coming out at the tap. Bleech!

I will tell you this though when we had AB, Coors and a few others on tap in the pub (this was prior to my being head brewer as when I took over they went bye-bye) Coors was the ONLY company to come clean their line. When I mentioned to the AB guys that they needed to hit their lines they laughed about it claiming "their beer is pasteurized which means nothing will grow in the line."

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by toneyc
Of course not! How could I maintain my well rounded, ah, character if I refused beer???

:)
Toney.

[Field of Dreams]
If you bring it, I will drink.
[/Field of Dreams]

I have a pretty good palate and will gladly give you my opinion.

[steveh]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
When you have a buttery pint from a tap it means the line is infected and chances are all the lines are going to be the same way as that comes from a poor cleaning cycle or perhaps a lack of one.

That's what I'd always heard - I actually had a Guinness at a TGIFridays that was pretty bad. I don't think anyone was drinking the Guinness there and it was staling in the line (among other things) - I sent it back.

Amazingly the bartender tried to tell me "that's how that beer is supposed to taste." When I explained to him who I was and no it was not supposed to be that way...

Whoops. Was he smart enough to be embarrassed?

Our H-B club used to meet at a Brew-Pub (now closed) and I got into it once with a bartender who wasn't rinsing his pitchers well enough - all the beer from them tasted like iodine! I told him to try it from the tap, and then from the pitcher and he still wouldn't budge -- until the whole club told him he was a goof.

...they laughed about it claiming "their beer is pasteurized which means nothing will grow in the line."

Wow - do you suppose that was just the intelligence of the distributor, or was A-B handing down that sort of "info" from on high?

S.