stupid question: lager yeasts

[b3s]

i've probably asked this before...but my memory is like a sieve...no, actually, not like...more like an exact replica ;)

right now i'm not really setup to do lagering...have received some good advice on it from PMs, but with 85 being the normal daily temp and the nights getting down to 50's, i'm not quite ready for it...this fall i was thinking about getting a heat belt and lagering on the balcony...

in the mean time, i was wondering if it's ok to use lager yeast for bottom fermenting (knowing full well that i will get esters...which is fine...that's why i like ales), which should provide a clearer beer, even at ale temps, even in the secondary...i guess kinda like a california common. sooooooo....is that OK? and if so, should i let the beer stay in the secondary longer?

[S.F.B.]

My experience has been that it is fine. I have found, though, that lager yeast tends to start slower and take longer to ferment. Other than that, no worries.

[Fast_Eddy]

All advice I've ever seen says it's preferable to use a lager yeast if it's called for in the style even if it's going to ferment at ale temp.

I did it quite a bit before I had the gear for cold lagering/fermenting and it comes out just fine. Of course the pro's and con's of longer in the secondary are:

Pro: more chance for yeast to finish by-product removal and O2 scavenging - that helps clean up the taste of lager

Con: Finished beer sitting on autolyzing yeast(which is sped up by warmer temps) which imparts off flavors

[b3s]

well then, i guess my follow up question would be: if you're gonna lager at ale temps, should you rack more often? (kinda like mead).

iow...once the trub collects in the carboy, should i rack to another secondary (call it tertiary or n-ary fermenter) just to get some trub separation?

[toneyc]

This is from the St. Pat's yeast page:

==========8<==========8<==========
Lagers at Room Temperature
Lager yeasts are commonly called bottom- or cold-fermenting. They make clean, malt-accentuating beer at cold temperatures. Clean simply means the beer tastes like the products from which it was made, viz barley malt and hops. Ales are not clean in this sense because they have fruity flavors. A long-standing homebrewing myth is that you cannot make good beer with lager yeasts at ale (warm) temperatures. Most lager yeasts do in fact make very good beer when used at ale temperatures. It may be argued, however, that such beers have more 'ale' character in that they will have fruitier tones than a traditional cold-fermented lager. Anchor Steam is an example of a commercial lager fermented at ale temperatures.

"If I want to make a lager in the summer in Texas and must ferment at room temperature, should I use a lager yeast or an ale yeast?"
I asked this exact question of a panel of yeast experts (Dave Logsden of Wyeast, Chris White of White Labs, Mary Beth Raines-Casselman, and John Maier of Rogue) and every one gave the same answer, "Use the lager yeast." No ifs, no buts, no hesitation. Amongst homebrew shops, St. Pat's has been almost single-handedly conveying this advice for the past 10 years, although some progressive shops have now followed suit.

==========8<==========8<==========

Which also illustrates one of my complaints about St. Pat's. Almost every page of their catalog has some snippet about how they've been doing (whatever) for 10 years now and other shops have followed suit or are a direct imitator of St. Pat's.

:)
Toney.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by b3s
well then, i guess my follow up question would be: if you're gonna lager at ale temps, should you rack more often? (kinda like mead).

iow...once the trub collects in the carboy, should i rack to another secondary (call it tertiary or n-ary fermenter) just to get some trub separation?

Funny you should ask....I've been using a tertiary racking system for the last 5 or so batches. I usually rack from primary to secondary sooner than normal to get the beer off of the largest amount of trub sooner. I guess the end result is it sits in the fermenters a week longer than it normally would.

IMHO I've been getting a better, clearer beer....maybe I'm just fooling myself

[cyanide]

What's the taste like? Does it come out tasting more like a lager or an ale?

I was considering doing this with my next batch, whose recipe I formulated myself.... but I couldn't decide on using lager or ale yeast.

[S.F.B.]

I just finished a Steam/Ca. Common. It tastes really good. More on the ale side than lager. Light in body, though. The malty sweetness is not as prominent and the hops really come to the front.

[ray m]

Toney...regarding your investigative results...have you tried fermenting a lager yeast at close to or at ale yeast temps (not talking about Calif. Common)? If so, how did everything turn out? I've been dying to try brewing a lager (like a bock or something like that), but do not have lagering equipment like a spare fridge. In the dead of winter, my basement temp gets down into the upper 50's. So, I would not be able to officially "lager" in the secondary below these temps. From what you've heard, should I give it a shot?

[toneyc]

Originally posted by ray m
Toney...regarding your investigative results...have you tried fermenting a lager yeast at close to or at ale yeast temps (not talking about Calif. Common)?

No, the one lager I've done, I did at lager temps in a temp controlled freezer. I haven't done any more lagers since because I couldn't really tell the difference between it and some of the ales I've done and figured that I like things simple and decided to stick with ales.

:) Toney.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by ray m
Toney...regarding your investigative results...have you tried fermenting a lager yeast at close to or at ale yeast temps (not talking about Calif. Common)? If so, how did everything turn out? I've been dying to try brewing a lager (like a bock or something like that), but do not have lagering equipment like a spare fridge. In the dead of winter, my basement temp gets down into the upper 50's. So, I would not be able to officially "lager" in the secondary below these temps. From what you've heard, should I give it a shot?

I've done lagers at ale temp. They come out very good but they definitely get ale characteristics...it's un-avoidable. You'll have some esters and maybe a little diacetyl(depending on yeast strain).

[mmmBeer...]

I have recently been using lager yeast at just below room temperature (about 65 degrees), and I have been very happy with the results. I have done 5 batches this way, using Morgan’s dry lager yeast, a very slight fruity flavour to it, but not that noticeable…

I have seen less lag time with the use of this yeast, than with the ale yeast I have used at a higher temperature. Put a batch down last night (no starter, just re-hydrated the yeast in warm water for 10 min). Pitched the yeast at about 10:30 p.m. and this morning at 7:30, it was bubbling away and blowing foam out of the blow off tube.

[b3s]

thanks for the info...i think i'll do an amber left coast common next...well, that or an irish red ale, but definitely in one of the next two batches i'll be doing an amber steam beer.