"starch haze?"

[sundontlie]

i've been a beer lover for a long long time, but i've only brewed about 10 extract batches on my own, and just recently i started up again and i've run into a question...
i usually order recipe kits and then augment them to create something different and more my taste.. i have brewed a couple porters and stouts where it called for steeping flaked oats... they turned out fine.
now, i have read that the only grains that can be steeped are the caramel or crystal malts and belgian special b, everything else must be mashed? then why do some recipes call for steeping flaked oats?
i just brewed a dark abbey ale, and i steeped flaked oats and flaked wheat before the boil, but yesterday i read this could cause "starch haze" in my brew. i now know why and what causes it, and that it is excessive unfermented left over proteins and how i could possibly fix it with amylase and a second fermentation, but exactly visually and tastewise what is it? i can't find anywhere (i-net or 3 homebrew books) a decription of what it REALLY is. is it only a visual thing (cloudy appearance) like the mandatory "chill haze" in an extract wheat brew? or is this going to really wreck my beer? visually i really dont care at this point with this beer, tastewise is it ruined? might i get lucky and not have it at all?
can anyone answer these questions for me please?

[danno]

now, i have read that the only grains that can be steeped are the caramel or crystal malts and belgian special b, everything else must be mashed? then why do some recipes call for steeping flaked oats? actually, any grains can be steeped. caramel malts, etc will actually produce some sugars, that's the difference. other grains will just provide color and flavor, but no fermentables... I haven't seen any recipes that call for steeping flaked oats, but (and I'm just guessing here) that it could add body and a creamy mouthfeel.

is it only a visual thing (cloudy appearance)... no. I'll copy a couple of paragraphs from an archived hbd digest here (http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4235.html#4235-10).

"When you create a beer with starch haze you are basically telling any stray microorganisms in your wort "Here's some food. Eat at your leisure." Over time they will degrade these starches/polysaccharides because the limitations on what these microorganisms can ferment are not the same as the limitations on brewing yeast. As they ferment, some will definitely create CO2...hence, the gushers. Others will convert the polysaccharides into alternate byproducts (like lactic acid). Others will create byproducts so unpleasant that you'll sewer the beer.

Will this always happen? No. Not if the non-yeast microorganism count is sufficiently low. Can you prevent this from happening? Keeping the beer at or neer freezing will reduce the activity of any microorganisms in the beer. Or drink it very quickly. Witbiers can have a starch haze, but these are products best drunk fresh. But if you want to prove the general to yourself, boil a tablespoon of corn flour in two cups of water and leave it exposed to the air with a cheesecloth cover. See how it smells in a week...or even two days."

hope this helps...

[sundontlie]

so what i'm getting is that if i've been, and continue to be very sanitary, and immediately after fermentation bottle and keep those suckers very cold and drink them quickly, everything should be ok? and visually and tastewise they will degrade over time, and possible explode... thats it?
then i'm a happy man! thank you very much!

[brewmonkey]

Here is some reading for you from one of the "Mr. Wizard" columns from BYO.

http://byo.com/mrwizard/732.html

I will disagree with Danno and say that while all grains can be not all grains should be steeped by themselves. Some grains will require conversion and if they do not have the ability to do it on their own you will need to mash them with a base grain like 2/6 row or malted wheat.

[danno]

you're right, brewmonkey. I got off track a bit trying to get at the sugar vs. color/flavor angle, since that appeared to be the sundontlie's misconception. you're not going to get any sugar out of roasted barley, for example, but it doesn't mean you have to mash it to be effective....

[sundontlie]

so, it may be worth it to steep any grains you want, but its not for obtaining fermentable sugars, only for (arguably) topics of head retention, color, maybe some flavor? etc... and of course in doing this you run the chance of starch haze... but then starch haze only comes into play over time, and if you keep it cold and drink it quick - as cloudy as the appearance may be - it should be ok? then whats the big deal about all of this? i'm just going to steep whatever the heck i want to for taste purposes and not worry about starch haze at all..

[fuji6100]

Excess unconverted starch can also begin to affect the taste of your beer if it gets to excess. Before I knew better, I was steeping grains that were supposed to be mashed and I had a floury off taste to my beer that I couldn't explain... until I learned more about the process.

Here is a chart that shows which grains are best steeped, and which are best mashed.

http://www.bodensatz.com/staticpages/index.php?page=Grains