Conical fermentation (true or false)

[spencer]

http://www.northernbrewer.com/conical.html
I don’t think a stainless steel conical fermenter is in the near future for me, but I still have a couple of questions… And you never know.

First question: Do you bother with a secondary when you use a conical fermenter? Since you can pull the yeast and other junk off the bottom of the beer without transferring it to another fermenter, do you bother with a secondary?

Second question: Since the prices are so similar between the 7 and 14 gallon fermenters, is there any reason that you could not brew a 5-gallon batch in the 14 gallon fermenter? My only thought on that one is since I use pure oxygen to aerate my wort, I would probably just let it run a little longer to purge the air from the fermenter.

Third question: Who has the best prices on these things?

Cheers - and don't tell my finace' that I brought this up!

[brewmonkey]

No, the design of the tank is done so that you do not have to move the beer from primary to secondary. With the cone you simply "blow down" the yeast and leave the beer sitting in the fermentor until it needs to be racked to serving.

Brewing a smaller batch in to a larger fermenter is just fine. In fact if you have the time you can do a double batch or brew on 2 successive days and have 2X the beer.

Unitanks also give you the ability to harest your yeast much easier then you could with many other fermentors. If the tanks you are talking about are the ones that I am thinking of they either come with or have the option to add a racking port. If they do it is something that I and probably Stod would both suggest getting. A racking arm mkes it much easier to harvest the yeast as well as rack off the brite beer.

Hands down unitanks are the way to go if you have the means. Even if your beers are damn fine in carboy's I would say that you would see improvment in brewing the same recipe in a unitank. With less agitation of the beer from racking you decrease the chances of oxidation as well some other benefits.

[fretlessman71]

Does a "v-vessel" qualify as a unitank?

[Stodbrew]

Unitanks also give you the ability to harest your yeast much easier then you could with many other fermentors. If the tanks you are talking about are the ones that I am thinking of they either come with or have the option to add a racking port. If they do it is something that I and probably Stod would both suggest getting. A racking arm mkes it much easier to harvest the yeast as well as rack off the brite beer.





Yep. It would, no doubt, make a very big difference.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Does a "v-vessel" qualify as a unitank?

I would say that it does. While it might not be the same exact design it does function in that capacity.

[Spicoli]

I was at a brewout this weekend that was at a local brewery. All the brewers were real cool. I got to take the nickel tour and ask a bunch of questions. The brewery was pretty small and I was impressed by how many batches they knocked out in a weeks time. They have one hot liquor tank, one mash tun, one boiling kettle and three fermenters. They claim to brew three batches a week. So I ask were are your secondary fermenters. Brewer replies These are single step conical fermenters. He says the beer ferments in a week and goes straight to keg and bottles. They are served the next week. 2 weeks for beautiful clear beer. They say the stainless steel speeds up the process considerably. Can this be true????????? Because if it is I want one or five!!!:D

[brewmonkey]

Unitanks do indeed negate the need for a secondary fermentor. The design of the tank is such that as the yeast settles to the bottom the tank can be blown down to remove the yeast. Since the yeast is gone there is no need to rack off . One of the biggest reasons for racking beer in to secondary is to get it off the yeast and reduce the chance of autolyzation.

Now if they told you that stainless speeds up the time in the brewing process they are incorrect, beer still ferments the same in a unitank as it does in a dish bottom and the same as in a plastic bucket or carboy. However, from mash in to serving most ales done in a pub only need about 14-17 days.

The reason for the week difference between home and pub is that many homebrewers bottle condition to achieve carbonation. Since that can take 7-10 days that is time they cannot drink the beer and it obviously adds time to the process.

In the pub there is a week or so of primary, then a secondary followed by either fining or filtering before it is sent to a serving tank and carbonated with a sintered stone. Since we use "false carbonation" we can take a beer that was flat and in a few hours filter it, move it into serving and have it at the desired volume. This negates the need for the 3rd week that bottle conditioning requires.

As a homebrewer with a unitank you will still need that time in the bottles to carbonate. That is unless you have a filter (which are available) and serve out of kegs. There is a carb stone that morebeer.com sells that will allow you to carbonate quicker then just applying head pressure.

Check here for some info (http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6408)

[Stodbrew]

Stainless steel won't speed up the fermentation process, no. Depending on the angle of the cone, however, it will speed up the yeast that is spent floccing to the bottom. As far as clear beer, if it is unfiltered or unfined, that is up to the focculation of that particular yeast strain. The yeast I used in my brewery was somewhat highly flocculent, and I would get close to 20 gallons of yeast at harvest. However, when I would use a lager yeast that I got from another brewery, it didn't floc well at all, and I would only get maybe 7 to 10 gallons at harvest.

So basically, stainless can speed up the process, to an extent. Two weeks from brewing to serving in not unheard of. My ales usually got around 18 days, and my lagers would get about 6 to 8 weeks.

[Spicoli]

Brewmonkey,

I have thought about using a carbonating stone before. I just haven't got around to checking into all the details. Like.... Do I need one stone for each of my kegs? Do ypu leave it on during dispensing? I have five kegs I like to keep going. I have also thought about the filter thing. Got any good links??


Strodbrew,

This brewer said he used a very high flocculent yeast from Chico CA. They use the same yeast for all their beer. All the beer had a green apple finish.

[danno]

BYO had a how-to article awhile back about mounting a carbonation stone and gas-in QD onto a corny lid, that way you'd only need one stone. you carbonate it for a day or two, then swap out the lid and serve through the normal gas-in QD. this should be easy to fabricate, and would save you the need for having more than one $15 stone. morebeer sells a complete one (http://www.morebeer.com/product_images/1/2370.jpg) just like this... (but it seems just a wee bit expensive for something most anyone could mock up...)

green apple finish? sounds like they're taking their beers off the yeast too soon... just like Bud does...

[wild]

If this is the same brewery I think it is, an English Ale yeast is also used there and was offered to the brewers.

Wild

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by danno

green apple finish? sounds like they're taking their beers off the yeast too soon... just like Bud does...

Green apple has nothing to do with coming off the yeast to soon, it is a classic flvor of many American Lager strains.

As for fast floccers, I used White Labs English Ale strain that is for lack of a better word, a super floccer. It drops brite so fast that if you don't watch it closely you can end up with some autolyzation.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Spicoli
Brewmonkey,

I have thought about using a carbonating stone before. I just haven't got around to checking into all the details. Like.... Do I need one stone for each of my kegs? Do ypu leave it on during dispensing? I have five kegs I like to keep going. I have also thought about the filter thing. Got any good links??

Sorry, I do not. All of my experience with stones is in the brewhouse.

I would check old issues of BYO as they seem to cover that more often and better then Zymurgy has.

[Spicoli]

Originally posted by wild
If this is the same brewery I think it is, an English Ale yeast is also used there and was offered to the brewers.

Wild


I'm sure we are talking about the same brewout (Sonoran). One of the guys working in the brewhouse is the one who told me about the yeast they use. I thought it was pretty cool that they gave yeast to the brewers right from the fermenter. It seemed like they gave them quite a bit for most the 10 gallon batches I saw. Did you participate in the brewout?
I pretty much tried to talk to each and every one of them. Pretty cool bunch of people.
I had a brown ale recipe ready to go, but couldn't talk the wife into staying out there all day. She did have a great time and agreed to participate in the next one. My daughter even had a great time running with all the other kids. GREAT LOCATION!!!!

[ray m]

Spencer......stainless conicals are indeed cool, but expensive, and most of us don't have the cash reserves to shell out $500+ for even a 7 gallon stainless conical.

There has been much talk on this board about the V-vessel. Do a search and you will be guided.

www.morebeer.com has V's for $129.00. I love mine and it has everything you need, including a trub/yeast collection ball that attaches to the bottom of the cone. An awesome device that I highly endorse.:)

[spencer]

Regarding the V-Vessel, is 5.5 gallon enough space to ferment beer? I've often used every bit of space in a 6.5 gallon carboy during primary fermentation; should I be concerned?

[Fly Creek]

The size of the conicals always struck me as a little odd. I really cannot imagine why they wouldn't just make a 7-gallon model instead of 5.5 which seems unnecessarily small. I mean, who wants to spend the money and then still need to use a blow off tube? I have one of the older Blichman stainless models and they did the same thing; you could get a 6- or 12-gallon model. They were exactly the same price, so I bought the 12, but it still seems to me like a design flaw to make such a peice of equipment with such a small amount of headspace. I dunno...

No doubt the purchase was an extravagance, but I really like it. No secondary, easy to clean, kegging is a breeze through the racking port, looks cool on the counter...

[brewmonkey]

Because the proper headspace in fermentation is essential in making a proper beer, especially when brewing an ale. While a blow off tube works it also wicks away some of the best and most viable yeast which is going to be needed later to reduce diacetyl and other fermentation by products.

Check out brewhouses and they will generally have tanks sized at least 20% bigger then the fermentation volume for that very reason.

There are some other reasons that go a bit deeper in to brewing science but I need to dig out a few books before I dive in to that.

[botay]

is stanless any diffrent (better) than the plastic conical fermenters, or is it just price?
________
Honda VT250 specifications (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_VT250)

[spencer]

Based on my research - and I am still researching - the stainless won't stain or hide bacteria. Also, based on this current conversation, they also come in better sizes (7 & 14 gallon). My guess is that the stainless has a longer life, but I don't know that I would every use either to the point where it was worn out... Oh yeah, the stainless looks cooler too...

Does the V-Vessel come in any other size than 5.5 gallons? It seems like it was designed for wine, not beer, but folks have adopted it for beer. Is that on track?

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by botay
is stanless any diffrent (better) than the plastic conical fermenters, or is it just price?

Stainless hands down is better. While stainless does scratch it takes a lot to do it while plastic is obviously quite easy to scratch. Scratching can lead to infections in fermenting beer as we all know.

Yes, you can buy a lot of plastic buckets before you ever got close to the cost of a stainless fermentor, but face it....Stainless is just cool.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
There are some other reasons that go a bit deeper in to brewing science but I need to dig out a few books before I dive in to that. Yep... doesn't surprise me a BIT... sleeping during 5th grade science again, BM? :D

[wild]

Originally posted by Spicoli
GREAT LOCATION!!!!
Definitely. This was a great first for Pinnacle Peak, for Scott (the new owner of Sonoran) and for all the brewers that participated). No one could have asked for better weather or scenic views compared to the old gravel parking lot of last year. Yes I was there and I brewed up an Old English Strong with Scott's English Ale yeast.

Wild

[ray m]

Originally posted by spencer:

Based on my research - and I am still researching - the stainless won't stain or hide bacteria. Also, based on this current conversation, they also come in better sizes (7 & 14 gallon). My guess is that the stainless has a longer life, but I don't know that I would every use either to the point where it was worn out... Oh yeah, the stainless looks cooler too...

Does the V-Vessel come in any other size than 5.5 gallons? It seems like it was designed for wine, not beer, but folks have adopted it for beer. Is that on track?
__________________________________________

Actually, the "V" capacity is a couple clicks more than 6 gallons and is only available in that size. If you fill your newly made batch of wort to the 5 gallon mark on the side of it, then add a quart yeast starter, you still have plenty of headspace and I have never come close to maxing that out and have never needed a blow-off tube. My planned barleywine I'm brewing next may change that, though.
Anyhoo, I wholeheartedly concur that stainless looks/is cooler and is much more resistant to scratching, etc. than the plastic "V". The plastic in the "V" is pretty damned thick, though, and I have been extremely careful when I clean it---just very light pressure with the cleaning brush gets the scum off. Then I just soak it full of PBW to do the rest.

My main argument in support of the "V" is its economical price vs. stainless. The stainless conical was just too steep in price for me. It has never given me a lick of problems, ever, and you get all you need to collect your yeast & you can bottle directly from it, too, without ever transferring your beer.

There is a company called US Plastics that makes different sized plastic conicals, if you think you may need a bigger conical in the future.

[2pigs]

Can you carbonate inside these conical Fermenters?, Or should you do it in the keg?

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by 2pigs
Can you carbonate inside these conical Fermenters?, Or should you do it in the keg?

You might be able to get a volume or so from the end of fermentation but the way they are designed I do not see a stone or any place to put one it and I also do not see a PVRV (Pressure Valve/Relief Valve) to prevent explosion/implosion. You would be better off in the corny keg IMHO.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Yep... doesn't surprise me a BIT... sleeping during 5th grade science again, BM?

We took science in 5th grade? :eek:

[spencer]

I don't know... I guess I'm not sold on the plastic. I went from buckets to glass for a reason, and I'm not sure if I'm ready to go back. If it existed, I would pay $200 - $250 for a glass conical fermenter... I can get by without the top of the line (stainless steel), but I have learned that the bottome of the "bucket" (plastic) often doesn't do it for me either. Don't get me wrong, I think the V & other plastic rigs are great, but I don't think they are going to scratch this itch. So unless there is something else that we didn't cover, I may need to wait until I can swing for the fences...

Great thread & great feedback. Keep it coming!

[Spicoli]

How did my post get moved????????? I quess it was posted in the wrong section Huh. Who does this and how does it work???:confused:

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Spicoli
How did my post get moved????????? I quess it was posted in the wrong section Huh. Who does this and how does it work???:confused:

I merged the threads that were all started on the V-vessel. We had 3 going at once in different forums. Unfortunately some things get jumbled a bit in the process.

[Spicoli]

Thanks. I was just wondering. Thought I was going nuts.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Spicoli
Thanks. I was just wondering. Thought I was going nuts.

No problem. One of the things I have been doing is merging threads that are on the same topic/ideas so that when someone does a search the answers are easier to find.

[2pigs]

Brewmonkey let me pick your brain again. Do you see a spot for the stone or pressure release in this Conical. http://www.morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=16170

[Stodbrew]

Doesn't look like it.

[miguel_iqa]

Unitanks desing
I've been researching on design of unitanks for lager beer production, but I can't find any information about the relationship between the height (L) and the diameter of the tank (D) (L/D)

In any other kind of cilinder shaped equipment for chemical and food processes the L/D relationship is important, so my guess was in this case too.

Also, the angle of the cone should be enough to let the sedimendation happen in an acceptable time.

I was hoping someone out there could point me to the right direction to find this information without having to go through experiments.

[HogieWan]

I know you want a 60 degree angle on the cone and I think the cylinder on top the cone is supposed to be 1:1, but I'm not certain about that.

[miguel_iqa]

Originally posted by HogieWan
I know you want a 60 degree angle on the cone and I think the cylinder on top the cone is supposed to be 1:1, but I'm not certain about that.


Thanks for posting!

Sorry to had post it twice, I'm new and I tried to post as a reply but made a new thread instead....
Anyway, thanks!

Cheers

[HogieWan]

no prob

we get some new people who come in and post the same question to 3 or 4 threads. So, when I check for new posts, I see 4 new threads with the same title.

[chazwicke]

Welcome to the board and thanks for reviving this thread. If I were to step back into home brewing, I'd definitely want the stainless conicle. I re read this thread and was remembering Brewmonkey's thread on building a brewery with I think it was limited to $5,000.00. I could set up a really nice one for 3-5 though I think. I also know that our former member, B3s, purchased some of the plastic conicles and has had great success. He recommends them. He will be brewing with them again very shortly in Oregon;)

[HogieWan]

yeah - those plastic conicals look pretty good. A V-Vessel looks like it might fit in my new fermentation refrigerator. Maybe that's what I'll ask for for christmas

[Payson]

I highly reccomend the "V"essel as well. Fine product! I would never go back!

[chazwicke]

Any thoughts about this brewing system?

http://www.morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=15198&PHPSESSID=3f26aa394a0698564ab63f43f12eb49e

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Any thoughts about this brewing system?


My thoughts are . . . just buy it! That looks like a great system as I've looked around at stuff like them before. Not that I can afford to buy it or have room for it. I'd opt for the SS ball valve option or the "no brass" option for only 67 or 68 bones more. The "tippy-dump" feature is really cool.

*edit - depending on your water, the water filter option won't break the bank either

[chazwicke]

With that and some conicles I'd have a decent set up. A buddy of mine has some steel and said he could build any kind of structure we needed. He also has some old kegs. But I like the idea of a professionally built system with a couple of stainless conicles.

Brewmonkey, Stod or Derek, What do you guys think of this setup?

[HogieWan]

I'm guessing the pro system will look a lot better, and be less of a headache. Two conicals will give you plenty of beer to drink!

[Tweek]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Any thoughts about this brewing system?

http://www.morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=15198&PHPSESSID=3f26aa394a0698564ab63f43f12eb49e

Buy it. I would if it were in the budget. I would get all digital too. I think it looks like an awesome rig.

[danno]

one thing to consider is how much beer you plan on brewing. (or, how often do you have a day to brew?) the step up in price to the 2050 (basically the same system, but does 20 gallons instead of 10...) isn't that much, and brewing twice as much beer only takes marginally more time.

oh, and you'll need a chiller of some sort. I'd get a plate chiller, myself... (and if I were in the market for a system, I'd definitely get the natural gas burners. these things burn a lot of propane...)

I'm gonna disagree with Tweek about the digital piece, because I like to "manage" the magic...

[HogieWan]

I'm with danno on the plate chiller (the thermentor looks awesome) and managing the magic. Personally, I wouldn't brew 20 gal at a time, because there's so many brews I want to make. I'd like them to run out so that I can make another beer.

I don't think I'll ever step up from 5-6 gal batches, but I know you were talking about a coop situation where people could get together for a brew day and each walk away with a fermentor. To each his own. Buy what you like.

[zoom6zoom]

20 gallons would be a "full" 5 gal batch each, split 4 ways. And labor split 4 ways would be easier (and I imagine a hell of a lot more fun!)

[chazwicke]

Agreed!

[danno]

just because you have the capacity to brew 20 gallons doesn't mean you have to brew 20 gallons every time... depending on how the mash tun is designed (you need a minimum grain bed depth) I'm sure you could do 10 gallon batches easily, or even smaller batches for bigger beers...

[xian 1g]

chaz, get that system or build it. I'm not certain yet, but I think I'm going to buy the plans for it (50$) and try and make it. I have a tig welder and work at a speed shop.