Astringency issue

[Grog]

Can 6 month old hop pellets (kept in the freezer, but not in O2 barrier bags) cause astringengy in a beer. I have an astringency problem with my APA (not terrible, but definitely distracting) and I am pretty sure the malt / mash is not the problem. So that leaves an infection or hops as the cause. I don't think it was an infection (although I cannot rule this out, but everything seemed usual during fermentation), so I am guessing hops. Any other guesses.

The recipe for 12 gallons (topped off to 15):
OG: 1.052

26.00# Pils
2.50# CaraPils
1.25# 10°L Crystal
1.00# 20°L Crystal

5.2 mash stabilizer added per instructions.

.5oz Domestic Tettanger FWH
2.50 Domestic Hallertau for 90 min
1.00 Domestic Tettanger for 15 min
1.00 Domestic Tettanger at KO

Split into two plastic primaries with Wyeast 1272 & 1338.

Both in primary for 14 days & racked into cornies & conditioned for 4 weeks.

Both have the astringency problem but the 1338 is more pronounced.

Thanks for any help!

-G-

[brewmonkey]

If you are having a problem with astringency in a grain based beer I would say the problem is not the hops but the mash time/temp.

I have never encountered this type of problem with hops, even when they have been stored improperly for a decent period.

Now grain on the other hand...

The husks of barley contain tannins and these can be leeched in to the wort through several methods with the most common being to high of a temp in the tun. Another way is that the mash is held to long or the pH of the mash drops to low. Any one or a combination of the above will cause the problem.

Another way is the crush of the grist. To fine of a crush and you increase the surface area of the grain which in turn increases the chance for leeching tannins.

The pH can play one of two ways. Either it was to low during the entire mash cycle or during your laturer your gravity in the tun dropped below 2.5P (1.010) and the pH dropped down very low. The second is probably the most common cause of this that I have run across.

How to avoid these are to always monitor the mash time keeping it as short as possible.

For the temp you should avoid adding boiling liquor to the tun and directly on to the mash itself. You should also avoid raising the temp of the mash over 173-174F. Even for just a short period can cause problems.

Watch the pH in the tun. During the actual mash you should try to maintain between 5.1 & 5.3 for best results. This should not be difficult as the mash will usually buffer itself out. Now some people using untreated water will land the mash at a pH of about 5.5-5.7 and will add some form of acid to the strike water or even the mash itself. For treating the liquor itself you should be shooting for a pH of 7 and this will help you land within the appropriate range. You should also treat the liquor and not the mash unless it is absolutely needed. Remember, too high of a pH in the tun will cause some problems.

During sparge/lautering going to slow or sparge water that is to hot can cause leeching but in this step I think the most important thing to watch is the pH/gravity of the runnings. When the gravity drops below 1.010 you should stop right there, even if you have not collected the amount of wort you require. You should also be watching the runinngs for an increse in pH as anything above a pH of 6 will cause leeching.

In all of the above they can cause the leeching of tannins. Tannins in beer above the flavor threshold will result in an atringent beer so keep an eye on these issues and your next batch should be better.

[Grog]

I batch sparge and my final runnings were about 1.025. I used the 5.2 mash stabilizer. I do add boiling water to step up the temp, but I have never had this type of problem before, although this was my first attempt at such pale malt bill, as I have been brewing browns, porters and ambers until this point. Do darker more malty beers mask this defect better? I never detected it until this batch. Maybe I am wrong on the defect? ARRRRGH!!!:mad:

[brewmonkey]

Can those bills mask it? I would say that is probably somewhat true. They use higher kilned malts which do have the ability to mask other issues.

Here is something from John Palmer which is very similar to what I said in the previous post.


Astringency differs from bitterness by having a puckering quality, like sucking on a tea bag. It is dry, kind of powdery and is often the result of steeping grains too long or when the pH of the mash exceeds the range of 5.2 - 5.6. Oversparging the mash or using water that is too hot are common causes for exceeding the mash pH range. It can also be caused by over-hopping during either the bittering or finishing stages. Bacterial infections can also cause astringency, i.e. vinegar tones from aceto bacteria.

The brown scum that forms during fermentation and clings to the side of the fermentor is intensely bitter and if it is stirred back into the beer it will cause very astringent tastes. The scum should be removed from the beer, either by letting it cling undisturbed to the sides of an oversize fermentor, or by skimming it off the krausen, or blowing off the krausen itself from a 5 gallon carboy. I have never had any problems by simply letting it cling to the sides of the fermentor.

[Grog]

How to Brew was the first resource I grabbed for, and it helped me narrow the off-flavor. I wonder if I am suffering from the brown foam of death. I have a Kölsch in the primary right now, brewed with the exact same procedure. Guess I will have to wait and see if it has the same defect.

[BrewDog]

Greg-
Did you detect any astringency in the Vienna?

[Grog]

Nope. Smooth as can be. One reason why I am so disappointed in this batch.

[Spicoli]

I am not an expert with troubleshooting problems. I did notice that the beer was left in primary for 14 days. I was taught that leaving your beer on the yeast for to long would create off flavors from the yeast canibalizing each other.
Just a thought....

[BrewDog]

Spicoli-

Autolysis yields rubbery or sulphury flavors.
Astringency is a mouth-puckering flavor. They are quite different and distinct.

However, 14 days is about the limit for an ale, though, before autolysis would show. I've gone that long several times with no ill effects. In a single stage ferm, I think it is better to go 2 weeks than it is to go only 1. (That's just IMO). The extra week of aging more than compensates for the risk of autolysis.

[brewmonkey]

Autolysis can also lead to "meaty" flavors in the beer as well. No matter what the off flavor from autolysis it is grody to the max.

[Spicoli]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Autolysis can also lead to "meaty" flavors in the beer as well. No matter what the off flavor from autolysis it is grody to the max.

You said "GRODY TO THE MAX"

"GAG ME WITH A SPOON"

I think we have a new thread.:D

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Spicoli
You said "GRODY TO THE MAX"

"GAG ME WITH A SPOON"

I think we have a new thread.:D

And of course it would be Spicoli who notices it.

Hey dude, theres no party here for me.

[Drink to much]

Originally posted by BrewDog
Spicoli-

Autolysis yields rubbery or sulphury flavors.
Astringency is a mouth-puckering flavor. They are quite different and distinct.

However, 14 days is about the limit for an ale, though, before autolysis would show. I've gone that long several times with no ill effects. In a single stage ferm, I think it is better to go 2 weeks than it is to go only 1. (That's just IMO). The extra week of aging more than compensates for the risk of autolysis.


I to was under the impression that 1 week in the primary was plenty then let it sit in the carboy for 2 weeks +. I have noticed that there is still a lot of activity in some beers when I rack which makes me wonder if I am racking to soon. However the activity seems to continue into the carboy so do you think longer in the primary? Your thoughts?
Thanks

[Grog]

I let the hydrometer tell me when to (or not to) transfer. The reading after one week was 1.025 for the 1272 & 1.035 for the 1338 which was a bit more than half the intended FG. I basically wait one week, take a reading if it is 85% (I'm not sure where I picked up this number) or more fermented, I transfer. If it is less, I wait another week.

I am nearly 100% certain I have an astringency defect. Upon reviewing my notes I added 5.5 gallons of boiling water to a 10 gallon mash to get the temp from 131° to 155°. Maybe that was too much boiling water as I beleive Brewmonkey was saying. Either that or I mis-measured the 5.2 Mash Stabilizer (or it doesn't work!). I will know better when this Kölsch is finished.