Cask Conditioining Rules!!!

[fretlessman71]

Went to Bosco's (Nashville, TN) last night with some friends... they have a nightly event where they break out a cask, have a customer pound the tap in with a wooden mallet, and take the first sip. Last night's was an IPA, and although I didn't get the honor of doing a little menial labor for them, I got to try a pint... and WHOA!!! THAT'S the taste I'd been looking for all this time! INCREDIBLE! Now I'm wondering... since I'm tossing around the idea of getting back into homebrew, does bottle-conditioning yield the same flavor texture as cask? (Did I phrase that right? Does anybody know what I mean?) I'm sure there's a difference in flavor between something charged with CO2, or Nitrogen, and something where the carbonation is natural. (Hmmm... maybe this post belongs in the Homebrew section.) I'd love to hear the elders and the experienced in this community expound on the virtues and pitfalls of each. Can't wait to read your responses!

[BluesHarp]

I always carbonate naturally in the keg. I don't know how much difference it makes, I just feel better doing it that way. .:D I only force carbonation if I am in a big hurry

[fretlessman71]

Is it pretty easy to get consistent results doing this? I'd hate to have "bottle bombs" like I had with my second batch of beer several years ago, and flat beer isn't much more appealing, if less messy....

[Richard English]

Cask-conditioned beers will tend to be less fizzy than bottle-conditioned beers since there is a slight diffenerence in the way that each develops in storage.

Cas-conditioned beers are laid down while fermenting and, once the fermentation has quietened down sufficiently and the beer has cleared, they are served. There is little pressure build-up since the wooden spile (and the cask, if is it wooden) is porous. I doubt that more than a pound or two of pressure will develop. Cask beers will therefore be lively but not fizzy. They will also be quite wonderful if properly brewed, stored and served. Once the fermentation has finished, the natural carbon dioxide blanket will disapate and the beer will quickly turn to vinegar on exposure to air. The imposition of an artificial carbon dioxide blanket will extend the life of the beer but there is a risk of too much carbon dioxide disolving into the beer and making it too fizzy.

Bottle-conditioned beers also undergo a secondary fermentation in the bottle but, as the bottle is sealed, the pressure will build up and the beer will thus be fizzier than cask ale. If the job has been done correctly, though, the excess pressure will not be great and the beer still excellent. The advantage for the home brewer is that the bottled beer will last much longer since contamination by air cannot occur in the sealed environment of the bottle.

Whereas, in my opinion,even the very best bottled beers cannot quite match the quality of the very best cask beers they do come very close.

Finally, just to remind US readers of one important point. In the UK there is an important difference between a cask and a keg. A cask is a container (such as the one that fretlessman71 was lucky enough to sample the contents of) that is not pressurised and, indeed, is incapable of pressurisation.

A keg, on the other hand, is rather like a large aerosol spray can which contains pasteurised beer under artificially-imposed carbon-dioxide or nitrogen pressure (as used by A-B and the like). From reading these postings it is clear to me that this important distinction is not always made in the USA.

The containers used by many home-brewers can be used either as casks or as kegs, depending on the manner in which they are set up.

[steveh]

C'mon Richard - give us *some* credit over here across the pond! Hell, I even sample ale and lager in a tavern (over here, Boozers are the people who spend too much time *in* the tavern) called The Firkin!

S.

[Richard English]

I am not trying to tar you all with the same brush but I have frequently seen posts that make it abundantly clear that those posting do not know the difference between a keg and a cask. And I suspect that there are also very many who do not know what a firkin is.

Here a boozer can be a person who drinks too much; it can also be a pub, inn, bar or tavern.

[fretlessman71]

Richard, I appreciate your THOROUGHNESS in your descriptions. To be quite honest, I DIDN'T know the difference between a cask and a keg... I was always taught that the only truly stupid questions were the ones you ought to have asked before you got yourself in whatever mess you were in.

I know what you mean by "lively." I'm a little embarrassed for saying this, but I've been known to take a spoon and "stir up" a beer that was for whatever reason too flat just so it had a little life to it for the short period I was drinking it. Stirring it warmed it a bit and the agitation continued on my tongue, and maybe it was all in my head, but it seemd to improve it, albeit only temporarily.

And yes, I don't know what a firkin is. (Yeah, I know - another Stupid American....) :)

By the way - where'd you get your last name, anyway?....

[brewmonkey]

Up until late last year I kept an engine on the bar and we "tapped" a firkin or a pin (depending on the beer) on Saturdays. Beer on engine from a cask cannot be beaten if it is done correctly.

[fretlessman71]

So just what is a "beer engine"?

[brewmonkey]

It is basically a single piston engine worked by hand to draw beer.

http://www.betterbrew.com/images/handpump.gif

This is the model I have at the pub, but they come in different draw sizes (.25L or .5L). They came about IIRC when the beer was actually still stored and served from the cellar. They would have the bar maid run down with pitchers and draw straight from the brites. With the engine they could run a length of line down to it and draw it up to the bar.

Now how much of this is lore and truth I am not sure, but it makes sense. Maybe one of our fellow brewers from the UK can fill in the blanks here.

You also might want to check out CAMRA, which is the Campaign for Real Ale, located in the UK.

[Richard English]

In response to your several questions:

1. I got my surname from my father, who got it from my grandfather, who got it from my great grandfather (who was a riding master in Cheltenham). How he got his name I don't know - but I suspect in a similar fashion!

2. Beer engines were a surprisingly late invention, devised sometime in the 19th Century (although I am not sure exactly when). The oldest set I know of are in the Nag's Head, just off Knightsbridge, London. They are said to be 1850. I am sure there must be older ones around, though.

3. Beer is still served directly from the cask in some pubs, although this is not always the best way to keep it for three main reasons. Firstly, the beer drawn in this way will lack any head since it will not have been agitated by the pump (it will still taste OK, of course). Secondly, if the cask is on stillage in the bar, it will be difficult to keep it at a proper temperature. Thirdly, as beer is drawn the contaminated air from the bar area will be sucked in to replace the volume of liquid. If the beer is kept on stillage in a cellar, then there is need for additional time in serving since the bar person will need to visit the cellar for each order.

4. Most beer engines were originally set to deliver half an Imperial pint each pull (that's 0.28 of a litre or rather more than half a US pint). I don't know whether the newer models are now metric. However, the dispense is not accurate enough to be accepted in the UK by the Weights and Measures Authorities which is why draught beer must be sold in properly marked glasses of half or one Imperial pint.

5. Sorry, I don't know what "IIRC" is or was so can't comment.

6. CAMRA is at http://www.camra.org.uk/. Don't just check it out - join it! Were it not for CAMRA we would all be drinking chemical fizz - and that is not an exaggeration!

[fretlessman71]

Psst.... you left out the firkin definition.... ;)

BTW, you have a website? Is it up and running, or might you be having problems with it?

And really, I was certain that your forefathers passed down your esteemed surname... I was just wondering, in a very dry american way, if they, too, were english.... Sometimes the humor over on this side of the pond either goes over the heads of the Brits, or they're just too intelligent to dignify our pokes with a response. The reverse is also true, it seems. TOO funny!

Thanks again for the, uh, "primer." (Get it? HEEHEEHEE....)

PS: I never heard of an IIRC either. Did I ask you about one?

[cyanide]

IIRC is short for:
If I Recall Correctly

[brewmonkey]

A firkin is an aluminum cask that is 9 USG. It is specially fitted with a mouth for the keystone and a hole for the bung (also where the hard and soft spiles will go).

When we serve ours we have a special saddle that we run glycol through set at 52F and if that is not working we have an ice blanket and a cover for it.

As for drawing in surronding air, yes it happens but that is why I only tap one at a time and usually only one a week. If I hit it on a Saturday night it is usually gone in about 2 hours.

As for the head, our engine is set up with a "sparkler" which is much like the diffuser for a nitro faucet thus allowing us to create a wonderful cascading effect in the glass as well as a foam stand.

I'm a little embarrassed for saying this, but I've been known to take a spoon and "stir up" a beer that was for whatever reason too flat just so it had a little life to it for the short period I was drinking it

WOW! Doing that will knock CO2 (DeGasses) out of solution creating a flat beer.

When I took over we had a lot of servers doing this because they were to lazy to get to the bar ontime (way slow drink tickets). We fixed that shit.

[fretlessman71]

[i]
WOW! Doing that will knock CO2 (DeGasses) out of solution creating a flat beer.

When I took over we had a lot of servers doing this because they were to lazy to get to the bar ontime (way slow drink tickets). We fixed that shit. [/B]


Well, sure, it can't be great for the beer, but I would only do that when I considered it nearly undrinkable at the time and I didn't want to pour it out. I'd leave my spoon in, stir vigorously, sip, sip again, stir, sip, etc. It didn't make it perfect, but it was at least MOVING a little for the time being. Sometimes the crappy liquor stores I lived near would have really old stock... you did what you had to do, I guess.

[fretlessman71]

DRAT! I'm going to be driving through KC in about 18 hours. WRONG time to be stopping for a brew, and I have to keep going to make it to Denver by 11am. Next time, though....

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Well, sure, it can't be great for the beer, but I would only do that when I considered it nearly undrinkable at the time and I didn't want to pour it out. I'd leave my spoon in, stir vigorously, sip, sip again, stir, sip, etc. It didn't make it perfect, but it was at least MOVING a little for the time being. Sometimes the crappy liquor stores I lived near would have really old stock... you did what you had to do, I guess.

Sorry, my post wasn't meant as a knock on you. It just made me think back 5 years or so. But you are correct, you do what you have to do.

[Richard English]

Well yes, it is - but just as an oak is a tree but a tree isn't necessarily an oak!

A firkin is a size of container, not the container itself. It's just one of the many standard cask sizes which in full are:

· 4.5 gallons - Pin
· 9 gallons - Firkin
· 18 gallons - Kilderkin (Kil or Kiln)
· 27 gallons - Half-hogshead
· 36 gallons - Barrel
· 54 gallons - Hogshead

I don't know about the USA but in the UK the gallons referred to are Imperial, not US (an Imperial gallon is rather larger than a US gallon). The material of which the container is made is irelevent, although it is usually aluminium these days.

The peripheral items such as the spile or bung are common to all cask sizes.

Beer served from a cask WILL draw in air; that cannot be helped. If the air it draws in is contaminated then the beer will be affected. That's why it's best for casks to be in a cellar.

There has been much debate on the use of sparklers and it seems unlikely that the matter will even be agreed. Probably the nearest one can get to a concensus is that Southern English beers are brewed to be served without a sparkler (and thus with little head). Northern English beers are brewed to be served with a tight head and thus a sparkler is used.

One facet of the argument against sparklers is actually along the lines of your own statement about agitation of the beer causing the carbon dioxide to be knocked out of solution.

I am a southern drinker and I like my beer served with very little head; indeed, if the head's to big I'll ask for a top-up.

And yes, I do have a website thank you - and it's working prefectly.

Finally, as I have already said elsewhere, US and British humour is very different. We con't even spell the word the same! I saw (and see) nothing humerous in your posting; it seemed to me to be a perfectly simple enquiry that I answered in a perfectly simple way.

[brewmonkey]

I put 9 USG when I meant Imperial, that's what I get for thinking and typing at the same time.

Beer served from a cask WILL draw in air

I never said it would not draw air, but in some places you will find the brewer (against the rules of CAMRA) using a CO2 breather in place of the spile.

For the use of sparklers, in the US Brewpub scene for the most part, the beer must have a head or it will come back. I do not prefer the sparkler and am known for pulling it off the engine.

Whats with the website comment? Did I fall asleep again? What's the URL?


DRAT! I'm going to be driving through KC in about 18 hours. WRONG time to be stopping for a brew, and I have to keep going to make it to Denver by 11am. Next time, though....

That's to bad. On your way back through maybe.

[Richard English]

fretlessman71 said:

"BTW, you have a website? Is it up and running, or might you be having problems with it?". I assumed the query was addressed to me.

There has been as much debate in CAMRA about carbon dioxide blankets as there has been about sparkers. Again there has been no agreement but the concensus is that a blanket, when applied at little mire than atomspheric pressure, will do no harm as it will simply replicate the natural carbon dioxide blanket that the secondary fermentation produces. However, since the cask will be sealed, it is possible to increase the gas pressure to quite high levels - and many suppliers will do just this (or allow it to happen through careless cellar management).

Carbon dioxide is a very soluble gas and, as is the case with all gases, will become more souluble as its pressure increases. Thus over-pressure will create the kind of fizzyness more usually associated with keg beers and lagers.

At present CAMRA's position is that it doesn't allow the use of an artificially-applied blanket since this will ensure that over-pressure cannot be applied.

So far as the refusal of American drinkers to accept "flat" beer this is, of course, a product of the indoctrination of the fizz-factories that used to make them insist on ice-cold, sterile, fizzy and thoroughly nasty chemical concoctions! It's the same over here with most drinkers - promotion is a very powerful marketing tool. Some landlords over here will ask whether you want a head and all pubs have a sign up telling drinkers that they may have a "top-up" if they wish.

The brewers and pubs, of course, cynically promote the head since they can thus give short-measure (typically between 5% and 10%) and this short-measure is actually legally allowed in the UK! Just imagine the row there would be if you were only supplied with 90% of the gallon of petrol (gas) that you had paid for!

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
... seen posts that make it abundantly clear that those posting do not know the difference between a keg and a cask. And I suspect that there are also very many who do not know what a firkin is.

Again, the trouble is the gap(s) in our common language. Over here we all grew up with the term "keg" as the biggest quantity of beer we could parlay for a party or picnic. Not having much exposure to cask conditioned beers in the U.S. until (relatively) recently, the pictures in our mind's eyes always turn to a 1/4 or 1/2 barrel, stainless steel vessel - or wooden, if you are old enough to recall them. I, myself, was rather surprised and delighted the first time I saw full-sized, oak barrels still being used to store and serve beer in Germany. Monsters they are (the barrels).

Nonetheless, there are plenty Yanks who enjoy the history and tradition of brew on all sides of the oceans - above and beyond the enjoyment of the beers. You can probably thank the rise of home-brewing for both, and I'll be willing to wager that there are more of us than you'd believe (albeit, maybe not all on this forum) who jump at the chance to enjoy beer from a cask or firkin, just by hearing the terms.

S.

[Richard English]

At prestige events in the UK (such as the GBBF) those brewers that can will supply their wares in wooden casks (common;y known as barrels but, as you now know, this is a particular size of cask).

Probably the largest size commonly used in pubs and at festivals is the Kilderkin since anything much larger is very difficult to manouevre.

Sadly the wooden cask is becoming rarer although there are still a few coopers around.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
So far as the refusal of American drinkers to accept "flat" beer this is, of course, a product of the indoctrination of the fizz-factories that used to make them insist on ice-cold, sterile, fizzy and thoroughly nasty chemical concoctions!

Richard, what is your opinion on (true) Pilsners? They are usually slow-poured (in Europe) to allow the most beer in the glass, yet still keep the rich, thick head prominent on the beer. Although I can't speak for all of the Pilsners out there, most of the better ones aren't artificially carbonated and would be rather bland without their heads.

While I enjoy a good real-ale from the U.K., I also enjoy a good lager from Bavaria as well - it's the diversity of styles that is a big part of the attraction. But you *do* have to be aware that the characteristics are part of the style. An Ami who has spent his life not caring about beer beyond the 10 ounce glass of Miller Lite on the bar in front of him will certainly be a bit stand-offish of a Fuller's bitter drawn from the hand pump. The trick is in getting him (or anyone) to expand his horizons.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
Probably the largest size commonly used in pubs and at festivals is the Kilderkin since anything much larger is very difficult to manouevre.

Sadly the wooden cask is becoming rarer although there are still a few coopers around.

It was amazing to actually see them "rolling out the barrel" at the Oktoberfest in Munich. If the barrel had gotten loose, there would have surely been much damage and possible injury!

Isn't Guinness the biggest employer of coopers in the world? Or was, at one time?

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
A firkin is an aluminum cask that is 9 USG. It is specially fitted with a mouth for the keystone and a hole for the bung (also where the hard and soft spiles will go).

Aluminum? Hopefully only on the outside shell. Aluminum is porous, easily pitted, and difficult to keep clean - Admittedly, I don't know the details of metal firkin construction, but I'd hope the lining - where the beer is housed - would be made of stainless steel.

S.

[Richard English]

Pilsners (real ones) are fine as are many other of the German, Czech and Belgian styles. They are brewed to be served with a head (and, if bottled, the head will be significant).

Traditional British draught Real Ales will have very little fizziness and thus little head unless a sparker is used. The sparkler does not add fizz, all it does is to enliven the dissolved carbon dioxide and force it out of solution. If the pressure of the sparker is great, it will also carry air into the beer allowing it to dissolve. This will also add to the head, though not the taste.

That this is a fact can clearly be seen by taking any sugary but flat drink concentrate (say still lemon cordial) and add water to it while restricting the flow from the tap (faucet) so that a strong stream is directed into the concentrate. When the glass is full a full head will have appeared. It is, though, a head composed of air, not carbon dioxide and it adds little to the taste of the drink.

A massive head is not, in truth, a charcteristic of traditional English Real Ale but has come to be expected by those who have known nothing except chemical fizz.

I would imagine that Guinness would have been big employers of coopers at one time but I doubt it's true now. So far as I am aware all Guinness is supplied in kegs, not casks - and certainly not wooden casks.

Incidentally, it's easy to tell the difference between a keg and a cask. A keg is cylindrical (like the aerosol spray can whose action it so closely mimics) whereas a cask has a pronounced "belly". It is, in fact, "barrel-shaped"!

So far as the construction is concerned I don't know all the details but I would imagine that metal vasks are lined with something.

I don't know for certain but I suspect that the reason for the replacement of wooden casks with metal is one of cost - primarily labour. A cooper's apprenticeship is said to be one of the longest of any trade (5 years, I seem to recall) so obviously there are significant training costs to be amortised. I did hear once, though, that wooden casks have a longer life than metal ones and what's more, can be repaired. Those brewers who still use them must, like the brewers who still use horse-drawn drays, have looked at the costs and decided that it's a worthwhile exercise.

It's a sobering thought, but if the metal cask had never been invented then neither would chemical fizz draught beers - since they can't be kept in wooden casks!

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
Incidentally, it's easy to tell the difference between a keg and a cask. A keg is cylindrical (like the aerosol spray can whose action it so closely mimics) whereas a cask has a pronounced "belly". It is, in fact, "barrel-shaped"!


In the U.S. we can purchase beer for mass consumption in 1/4 and 1/2 barrels. The 1/2s are, indeed, cylindrical. The 1/4s are often barrel shaped with the belly.

BTW - our 1/2 barrels are made of stainless steel and make good home-brew boil kettles with the top cut away.

It's good to know that you aren't against *all* fizzy beer Richard - just the swill, and I'll back you on that any time!

S.

[chazwicke]

I think the finest ales are those that are cask conditioned and well handled. I like a little less fizz on my tongue. That is why I would recommend the Miami International Beer fest next year. They had 64 Cask beers there this year that were well taken care of and temperature controlled. I was happy to make the trek from DC to South Beach. Also why I am attending GBBF. I can hardly wait. Maybe I will be able to meet up with you Richard, at the fest. I have a list of the cask beers that were served at Miami. I can post them if anyone wants to see them.

[Richard English]

I do expect to be at the GBBF although, as it's a simple train journey for me of less than one hour, I don't need to plan too far in advance. I will certainlly make it, though.

I'll keep in touch.