Poor results on taste of beer

[boostn]

Ok, here is my problem. This will be my third batch of beer. I haven't brewed in four years because I didn't think that the first two were all that great. I am overly clean when I prepare for the brew so I don't think that could be a problem, but I won't rule it out. Here is the goods that went into the honey brown porter.

6lbs. of Munton & Fison extract
caramel Malt 80L .5lb
Chocolater Malt 375L .5lb
Honey 16oz
Progress hops (bittering) 1oz
Irish moss
White labs California ale yeast

The beer isn't ready but I was taking a sample gravity reading (1.022 now) and decided to taste what was already going down the drain. It didn't seem to have alot of flavor and had a slight taste of cardboard to it. This tasted exact like the last batch I made four years ago and this was the reason I gave up.
I mixed up the extract with the pot off the burner until it was dissolved and the grain bag came out right when the boil just started.
After the boil I cool the wort quickly (20mins.) to around 75 and dump the wort into the bucket. I boiled with about 1.75 gallons and filled the bucket to the 5 gallon mark with spring water from a jug I bought at the store. Before I pitched the yeast I shook the jug (with the lid on) a bunch of times. I pitched the yeast and gave it a few more shakes to mix up the yeast good.
After looking up some symptoms of bad beers, it sounded like it was in the stale/oxidized catagory. Not sure 100%
I usually ferment it anywhere from 10-14 days with a secondary carboy for clarity.
I did notice that the lid had some beer on the sealing part of the bucket where the lid mated so I don't think that it is 100% air tight.
Should I not of shook the bucket when I pitched the yeast? Could that do it?
Please help, I don't want to give up. I love the taste of good quality beer and want to step up the program. Thanks for any help.

Michael

[Stodbrew]

When you're steeping grain, you shouldn't let it get anywhere near boiling temp. It should only be steeped in about 150-160 degree water. Anything much hotter than that and you will leach tannins out of the grain which will lead to an astringent feeling. It feels kind of harsh on the sides of your tongue.

[boostn]

Wow, thanks for the speedy response. :) So do you think that could be my problem. The batch I made years ago (just like this one) was done the same way. The taste is kinda bland, cardboard like. It just didn't seem to have much flavor like a good beer.
Right before it started to boil, actually after I saw the first bubble the grain bag was removed.
Once again, thanks for helping.

Michael

[sallad]

how about you give us an example of "good" beer, your favorite commercial brew. the recipe you described would probably have a slightly sweet almost nutty flavor that could be confused with cardboard.

describe you goal, and the wise ones on this board can help you attain it!!

welcome aboard!!

[boostn]

Thanks for the welcome. I hope I am giving all the info. that people will need. I was hoping for something along the lines of Newcastle Brown Ale. I do like the taste.
I can't remember the exact name but the last batch was supposed to be similar to Newcaste (per the brewers) words. I did trust the store brewer alot as he had been homebrewing for 13 plus years.
Any recommendations on what I should do or should not do?

Michael

I am hoping to start back in with a local homebrew club as four years ago I was doing the same but was dissapointed with my outcome of the first two batches. I am older and have more patience now. :)

[Otis_The_Drunk]

One question before this thread gets too far.

Did you use bleach to sanitize your primary fermented?

I know that this may sound like a stupid question but I have ruined a few batches by not rinsing out the fermenter well enough before the advent of the newer no-rinse sanitizers.
(even then I rinse, old habits are hard to break)

What you are describing flavor wise is what the ruined batches I had tasted like, card board.

[Otis_The_Drunk]

also incomplete starch conversion can leave flavors like that.

[Wolf359]

I've noticed a couple of things that could put you off. Like the others said those steeping grains should get nowhere near 212 degrees F. Try keeping them at 157-160 degrees F for about 45 minutes. Also your choice of yeast seems a little odd for the style that your aiming for, try something along the lines of an English ale yeast. And lastly your may think about adding at least one more ounce of low alpha acid hops, perhaps something like an East Kent Golding. Try to keep in mind that homebrewing is often times hit and miss, I can't even think of how many batches I screwed up along the way. Might I suggest Palmer's book on homebrewing as it really put me on the right path to making better beers.

[boostn]

I did use the bleach ultra, one tablespoon/gallon of warm water. I let it sit upside down for ten minutes before I put any fluids in it. I did smell the bucket before I put any liquid in and couldn't really smell any bleach (I have a really good sniffer too).
I think I used the bio-san sanitizer the last time and it was the same results. I am not ruling out the bleach but just wanted to explore all the options I could of screwed up. I am not 100% sure it will taste bad, but it is very discouraging to say the least.
So I shouldn't have brought the brains to close to a boil is a big contributer.
I can't say how excited I will be if I (someone) figures or helps me figure it out what I am doing wrong. :)
I have read "the new joy of home brewing" by charlie papazian twice, just to make sure I didn't miss anything. I have read so many ways of doing things.

Michael

p.s. I didn't say earlier, but this batch wasn't supposed to be like Newcastle, but my last batch was and it looks to be the same results as far as taste goes.


I really appreciate all the help from everyone.

[danno]

I didn't see anyone answer this question, so: you should be shaking up the wort when you add the yeast. aeration/oxygenation is a very good thing for yeast reproduction...

[boostn]

Originally posted by danno
I didn't see anyone answer this question, so: you should be shaking up the wort when you add the yeast. aeration/oxygenation is a very good thing for yeast reproduction...

Yes, I did spash the wort in the bucket, then agitated the bucket, pitched the yeast and agitated it a bit more.

[axis714]

Heres my interpretation ...youre after a beer with some body and taste,and Im guessing your last few recipes were approx the same. Id pump up the recipe ingredients a little and see if what youre after isnt maybe a stronger style than a "mild". as Emeril says kick it up a notch -add a few pounds more malt a couple more ounces hops throw in a pound or 2 of crystal as steeping grains. And by all means try a different yeast. Also I agree that most "green" beer tastes similar, give em time. Youre doing a partial boil so I would definately add to the hop schedule at the least,and yes use a thermometer with your steeping grains,very important.

[SoxyinMO]

Hey boostn - one thought; maybe you could try an ingredient kit first, complete with step-by-step instructions. It makes it easy to get going, and has all the steps laid out for you to follow. Most HBS, local or otherwise provide these.
Good luck, and welcome!

[boostn]

Originally posted by axis714
Heres my interpretation ...youre after a beer with some body and taste,and Im guessing your last few recipes were .

Yes, more taste! I want something my tastebuds say "hell yeah" when it smells the aroma. To answer "SoxyinMO", I was using a kit. The person that made up the kits had quite a few years experience under his belt so I feel that the kits are pretty well thought through. Anybody hear of "New River Pale Ale". I think Dominion brewery in Va. brews it. The person that got that started is the originator of the kits I use.

On another note, I did order another kit from a different place. They use powder extract instead of the liquid. Maybe that will help. Thoughts

Here is the link to the kit. Too bad it doesn't say what is in the kit.
http://www.ebrew.com/amber_ales/english_brown_ale.htm

[botay]

I made several bad batches before I switched to bottled water. I've read Iron can be a problem.
________
Ford Motor Company of Argentina history (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Motor_Company_of_Argentina)

[wortchillergoal]

I can't remeber what it was but there have been other threads/posts dealing with off flavors and one being cardboard. If you were to use the search function and type in cardboard, I am sure you wouild come up with more information about what might be causing it.

Welcome to our community and don't give up. I have been extract brewing for 10 years give or take. You can make some mighty fine brews doing this. You might end up going all grain, I just don't have the time or I would.

Final thought, if a hockey goalie can brew good beer, anybody can.

[BluesHarp]

If you like porters or stouts, make one of those...the darker the beer, typically the more forgiving it will be to minor process problems. It is a great way to get your processes fine-tuned and build your confidence (and enthusiasm) as well.

There have been threads discussing the infamous "extract twang" flavor; I have been adding my liquid extract very late in the boil and have had good results.
Some recommend only dried extract for cleaner flavor becuase liquid has already been boiled once during manufacturing.

The use and proper "mashing" of specialty grains will add flavors and body difficult to achieve through extract alone.

Don't despair! I went through a period myself where I quit brewing for two years because I just wasn't happy with my beer.
I'm glad to report, since I started up again, my last four batches turned out excellent, even with some bumps along the way!

This people on this board have the knowledge and experience to get you through any sticking points...trust me! :)

[YamahaXS]

my gut reaction is that the recipe could use more hops. whats the alpha on Progress? I am thinking in the 10 range.... which may not be enough given the high density of the partial boil wort.

I wouldn't rule out water.

Leaving the grains in the wort past 170 isn't recommended but I don't think it would lead to the flavor profile you are describing.

Certainly not an infection, nor does it sound like a bleach problem.

Final thoughts:

1.022 is still high. The flavor will improve with age, carbonation, and further attenuation. Its too early to jump to any conclusions, IMO. Better to simply observe at this point, write down your impressions, and wait for a well conditioned bottle. see my attachment ;)

[boostn]

Thanks everyone for the information/comments/suggestions. The 1.022 gravity reading was only after 6 days of fermentation. I just wanted to see where it was going and try out my new "turkey baster". I won't give up trying. I just hate spending the money then waiting a long time and then being disappointed.
I have read more of the "homebrewing book" just so I understand every aspect of the process. I have taken some notes what I think I should do the next batch around.
I am also reading up on making my own mash tun, ect. to get a better idea of what is involved and the level of commitment I will need if I go that route. Once again, thanks.

Michael

[axis714]

Michael,
Im absolutely sure youre on the right track, regardless of what your beers outcome has been in the past believe me my final outcome has improved 100% since finding this board,and Im sure yours will be similar. I do know the frustration of poor tasteing batches and the expense involved, I think weve all been there. But as I stated before , You WILL improve your brews and it WILL get easier, I promise you that.