What's the best way to carbonate in a corney?

[voodoo]

After reading the many posts regarding kegging beer, it's obvious that it's a big time saver with lots of "pros" and few "cons".

What I have not been able to determine (after reading books, this site, and talking to my LHBS personal) is what the differences, pros and cons are EXACTLY for force carbonating with CO2 vs. Adding priming sugar as you would with bottling.

What I've got so far is :

Force carbonating is done at higher pressure (30 psi?) for 2 days, and then dispensing pressure is used to maintain and serve the beer.

If you don't want to wait the 2 days, you can supply the (30 psi?) and shake the heck out of the keg for a few minutes, then enjoy.

If you use priming sugar, you only use half the amount you'd use for bottling, but then you need to set the keg aside for 1-2 weeks in a warmer area to allow natural carbonation to take place, then you need CO2 to dispense the beer.

(Is all that correct so far?)

Now, what are the pro's & con's, and what determines which method you should use?

I have a India Pale Ale that should be done in it's primary this Monday (my first batch!). Can I siphon it directly into the corney, force carbonate for 2 days @ 30psi in the kegerator (40 deg F) and then drop the pressure to 5psi to serve? Does the beer need more time to clarify? Should you do a secondary fermentation before kegging if you're going to force carbonate?

And as if that isn't enough questions...

I assume natural carbonation creates more sediment; soooooooooo if you HAVE the ability to force carbonate, is that the "best" way to go? Seems like it would allow you to enjoy your beer sooner, with less sediment, but I don't know if beer tastes better one way vs. the other.

Looking forward to reading your collective wisdom!

[toneyc]

Well... this is one of those "do it the way you like it" things. The way I do it is to hook up the keg at serving pressure, usually about 12psi for me, and leave it alone for a week. Why do I do it that way? Because I am very lazy and fairly patient.

:)
Toney.

[Grog]

Originally posted by voodoo
I have a India Pale Ale that should be done in it's primary this Monday (my first batch!). Can I siphon it directly into the corney, force carbonate for 2 days @ 30psi in the kegerator (40 deg F) and then drop the pressure to 5psi to serve? Does the beer need more time to clarify? Should you do a secondary fermentation before kegging if you're going to force carbonate?

I just kegged my first brew a few weeks ago, and unlike ToneyC, I am very impatient (still lazy though) and I had been out of homebrew for almost 2 months! I set the regulator a 18psi (the beer was abot 50°F) and shook the living bejesus out of it and it carbonated fine. I think the natural carbonation method might come in handy when you have a more brew than co2 lines.

If your IPA is just coming out of the primary, you may what to give it a couple of weeks conditioning time to allow the brew to round out a bit.

-G-

[danno]

I'm with Toney, hook it up at serving pressure and let it carbonate slowly...

one thing, you don't need to "shake the bejeezus out of it" if you need short term carbonation, I've been successful setting corneys on their sides on a recliner (garage furniture), and rocking them a couple of times every time i'm out in the garage, they carbonated nicely in a half a day... the point is to maximize the surface area where the co2 is in contact with the beer, shaking or rocking or rolling them around does just that for you...

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Grog

If your IPA is just coming out of the primary, you may what to give it a couple of weeks conditioning time to allow the brew to round out a bit.

-G-

Ok. Can I give it a couple of weeks conditioning time by just leaving it in the corney at serving pressure, in the kegerator?

[c0nsumer]

You might want to consult a table detailing CO2 volumes vs. temperature & pressure. If I remember right, 30psi at 40F would WAY overcarbonate your beer.

This should help: http://brewery.org/brewery/library/CO2charts.html

I'm not sure if my estimating is off or not, but 30pst at 40F would give you... Oh... 7 volumes of CO2? That'd be nuts!

-Steve

[voodoo]

That's a GREAT table, Thank you! The only thing it lacks is how LONG the beer needs to be exposed to those temps and pressures to achieve the desired level of carbonation.

[c0nsumer]

Originally posted by voodoo
That's a GREAT table, Thank you! The only thing it lacks is how LONG the beer needs to be exposed to those temps and pressures to achieve the desired level of carbonation.

I can tell you that there is no set time. It all depends on the beer. What you need to do is apply that much pressure and let it sit until no more CO2 is flowing into the keg. That is, when the beer is saturated at that pressure.

I've read some articles about using gas flow meters for this, but I'd imagine if you chilled the keg, applied CO2, shook it while the CO2 was being applied, etc, and then kept it under pressure for a few days, shaking once in a while, you'd be fine.

Also, gasses dissolve into liquids better at lower temperatures, so that's why chilling it is a good idea.

By the way, screw the idea of running your CO2 into the dip tube during carbonation. It won't make much of a difference, especially if you are going to be shaking it. The extra fitting of hoses and stuff will just be a hassle.

So, I guess I'd say go based on the table, and just let it sit with occasional shaking until it seems right. I'd say that when cool this would be around... Two days? Although I've just done a lot of reading on it, I haven't actually done any force carbonation of beer itself.

-Steve

[fuji6100]

Voodoo,

I typically apply about 15 psi at first (I run my kegs at 10-12) and then turn it down to serving psi after a few hours. Since I let my beers condition over a week or two before drinking anyway, I don't bother shaking. (Though I do sample sips of the beer as it ages just to note the changes in the beer)

When my system was new and I was more impatient I did successfully carbinate by cranking it up to about 30 psi and shaking the hell out of it every 4-6 hours, then purging back down to 10-12 on day two... but I ended up with perfectly carbinated, perfectly GREEN beer. It still has to condition so I never bothered with shaking after that.

You CAN apply co2 through the dip tube to expose more co2 to surface area of the liquid, but the danger of getting beer in your gas line (unless you have a check valve) and the tiny beneifit just doesn't seem worth it.

You will get more patient as you own and use the system.

[c0nsumer]

Originally posted by fuji6100
You CAN apply co2 through the dip tube to expose more co2 to surface area of the liquid, but the danger of getting beer in your gas line (unless you have a check valve) and the tiny beneifit just doesn't seem worth it.

What I was questioning was the benefit of this, with large, likely dime-sized bubbles racing up to the top of the keg, and that's about it. Maybe it would work well with a stone, but otherwise I can't see using the dip tube as being very useful.

-Steve

[voodoo]

Originally posted by fuji6100

It still has to condition so I never bothered with shaking after that.



Gotcha. So, to be clear (I'm a newbie) Can I "condition" the beer by just leaving it alone for a week or two? Rack the beer from primary to the corney, connect the CO2 at 15 psi for two days, drop it to serving pressure, wait 1-2 weeks <sob>, THEN finally enjoy?

Is THAT suitable for conditioning, or does conditioning take place in a secondary or OUTSIDE the kegerator?

Thanks for your patience!

[fuji6100]

cOnsumer : I don't see the benefit of it either (to quote myself "...the tiny beneifit doesn't seem worth it") but some people still do it ::shrugs:

voodoo : Basically "conditioning" is a transition phase for the beer where particulate matter falls out and the few remaining yeast do some "clean up" work on other molecules in the beer. Conditioning is an ongoing process that overlaps with fermentation (hence there is no exact moment fermentation ends, and conditioning begins) but peaks after fermentation is completed and slowly tapers off as the beer ages (and tapers more sharply once the beer is chilled below the active range of the yeast.)

Even once the yeast are slumbering from cooler temps and lack of food, the beer will still change its character over time as molecules interact and break down certain compounds, and form others. On most beer styles, aging brings a tastier brew. There is nothing wrong with drinking the beer early, it might just have some "rough edges" where flavors have not balanced out yet.

Drink your beer when you feel like it, and as long as you are happy with how it tastes, that's all that matters. (it is fun to store a bottle away for a year and then pull it out later to see how the beer has evolved. Give it a go and you will be surprised at how well some beers mature)

[Drink to much]

I am super impatient also and want to drink my beer as soon as it get into the keg. I hit it with 20lbs and let it set for 2 days or until my other keg runs out and then start pouring. I leave the pressure up until the beer gets carbonated and then back the pressure off to a reasonable head and finish the keg. I wish I knew of a way to do it faster but I don't think there are any shortcuts. It usually takes 4 to 5 days to get carbonated but I will drink it anyways, pouring at 20lbs. will give some carbonation but will not last. Good luck.

[HarkJohnny]

sounds like everyone has a slightly different answer here so I'll weight in and drop another one...

I'm impatient as well, though I'm learning to be patient with my beers. my first couple of kegged brews i transfered right in from primary and started drinking within a day or two.

One way I do it is to go to secondary for at LEAST a week. After that if you want to transfer it to the corny then that's cool... add half your priming sugar and set the PSI on your CO2 tank between 15-20. hook it up and let it fill just so that the lid is tight (no hissing leaks). Let it sit as long as you can at fermentation/storage temps. this will assure you of a sealed lid an proper carbonation from the sugar. after a few days push doewn the pin on the gas inlet and if it's really forceful let some out.. if not forceful let just a bit out.

otherwise if I want to force carbonate, i stick it in my beer fridge and leave it on "the juice" for a couple of days at about 20-25psi. after maybe 3-5 days I let most of the pressure out by depressing the gas inlet on the corny and then hook it back up at 10-12psi for serving and then lower it over time as needed.

figure 2psi per foot of serving hose. sometimes it's less depending on if it gets overcarbed.

then.... enjoy!

[spencer]

I was going to start a new thread, but I think my question is close enough to fit here. I have always had really good luck with that carbonation table, but I typically carbonate my corneys right after I fill them because I know the temp of the beer going into the kegs. I can’t help but notice that I’m at the very edge of “high temp” carbonating, and it seems to me like I waste Co2 to carbonate at 60 degrees.

The logical answer is to hit the corney with enough C02 to seal the gasket & then chill to a temp that requires a lot less Co2 to do the same job. The thing is that I can’t tell what the temp of my beer is once in the corney. I would stick one of those strip thermometers (like you put on a carboy) on the keg & toss it in the fridge, but it seems like it would be a better measure of the keg, not my beer.

So how do you chill a brew before carbonating & know how much Co2 to push in for your desired Co2 level? Home-brewing has a lot of guess-work, so an answer of that nature is acceptable…

[Grog]

If you plan on chilling it in the fridge, just get one of those five dollar dial refridgerator thermometers. The beer and the corny should be really close (close enough anyway) to the temp indicated on the thermometer (the ambient temp in the fridge) as long as you are keeping the door closed. Are you burning through an inordiante amount of CO2?

-G-

[danno]

Originally posted by spencer
I can’t help but notice that I’m at the very edge of “high temp” carbonating, and it seems to me like I waste Co2 to carbonate at 60 degrees. no you're not. like any gas, the higher the temperature, the higher the pressure for the same amount of co2. that's the ideal gas law in action. as an example, let's say you want 2 volumes of co2 and your beer is at 40º. that requires 7 psi. if you then take that keg and warm it up to 60º, it will be at 16 psi, and you haven't added any co2.

Originally posted by spencer
So how do you chill a brew before carbonating & know how much Co2 to push in for your desired Co2 level? Home-brewing has a lot of guess-work, so an answer of that nature is acceptable… two ways you can do this. first, figure out from a chart how much co2 you want eventually. (like the 2 volumes from above) carbonate warm at the higher pressure, then when it's chilled it will drop to your serving pressure. this would be the "I have extremely limited refrigeration space" method... Or, cool it and force carb it at the same time, at your ending pressure. the beer will absorb more co2 at your regulator reading as it chills. (btw, it will chill faster than it will absorb co2 unless you're employing some method other than "hook it up and forget about it", so it's really a moot point...)

[spencer]

Originally posted by danno
Or, cool it and force carb it at the same time, at your ending pressure. the beer will absorb more co2 at your regulator reading as it chills.

I have a three-way gas splitter in my fridge, so if I am understanding you correctly, I should hook my recently-kegged brew up at serving pressure and let it sit? That would be really ideal because I only have one regulator, and to hook more than one up at a time under different pressure is a problem. My current method is that I have a two-way splitter on the outside of the fridge (one goes in and the other stays out for carbonating). Then I have a three-way inside the fridge for serving. The only trouble is that I have to shut off the fridge in order to force a newly-kegged batch & then mess around with getting the regulator back to a good serving level before I let the gas back into the fridge. I like this "hook it up at serving pressure & chill" idea... That is if I understand you correctly.

Grog: I'm not burning through Co2 or anything, but before I read Danno's post, I figured the more pressure I was pushing the more CO2 I was using. It seemed logical at the time.

[danno]

Originally posted by spencer
I have a three-way gas splitter in my fridge, so if I am understanding you correctly, I should hook my recently-kegged brew up at serving pressure and let it sit? . exactly. it's going to take a week or two with this method, but it doubles as conditioning time, which also improves your beer...

spencer, one thing you want to be careful of. when you initially hook up an unpressurized keg, you want to disconnect the other keg, otherwise the pressure imbalance between the two kegs can suck beer from your already pressurized keg into the gas line...

[spencer]

Sounds good. I need to transfer my Steam Style into a secondary today, so I'll give this a try when it's done. As far as beer in the gas lines goes, I've been there; it sucks...

[gallowd7]

As someone with a little more patience than even Toney, I just started kegging again and used 1/3-1/2 cup corn sugar and sealed the keg with a blast of CO2. 1st pint has some funk, but good beer after that.

[RickMan]

This isn't so much a reply as it is a sub-question...

I recently force-carbonated my first batch in a cornelius keg. I hooked my co2 tank up at the right pressure given the temp of the beer and the desired carbonation, and proceeded to shake the be-jesus out of it. After doing this a few times over the next couple days I noticed that my co2 line coming from the regulator was getting beer in it. Now I was always careful to disconnect the co2 line from the keg before shutting off the tank so as not to let the pressurized keg force beer into the now unpressurized line and regulators. So the only think I can think of is that with the pressure in the keg equalized with the pressure in the co2 line, beer was somehow getting into the line while I was shaking it. I have since gone with a more gentle shaking regiment and have not noticed any more beer in the line, but now my tank pressure gage is sticking (bad, I know). I purged all of the beer out of the line using co2, but the gage still requires some hefty taps before reading close to what it should. I also made sure that the book I have said to leave the co2 tank hooked up while shaking, and it does. Has this happened to anyone else, and should I infact be leaving my tank hooked up to the keg while shaking? If so maybe people should be advised of this when considering the shaking method of quick carbonation. Also would it be better to let the beer "condition" at a higher temperature so that the yeast still remains active, and then chilling in a keggerator wile carbonating with co2?

Sorry for the lengthy post, thanks and gig 'em
-Rick

[danno]

it sounds like you overfilled your corny. if you fill it past the beer-in dip tube, (as you've found out) you end up with beer in your gas line, and, much much worse, beer in your regulator, which likely means a rebuild.

I only shake my cornies when I'm in a big hurry to drink them (usually, when I promised beer for a party somewhere and got lazy/behind schedule), otherwise I let them carbonate at serving pressure. throw them in the chest freezer, hook up the co2 at 10psi, and let them sit. a week later, they'll be perfectly carbonated...

[Drink to much]

This has happened to me also and to which I attribute a higher pressure in the keg than I had on the C02. This caused the beer to flow back wards when I shook it. I stopped shaking the keg after a few days and then reduced the pressure and have had no problems since.
Good Luck.

[RickMan]

Just to clarify, my keg is actually underfilled. It only has 2 gallons.

-R

[ANGELofDEBT]

First post but been kegging for about 2 years. I'm in the camp of "connect corny at serving pressure in my kegerator for 3-4 days" but my cornys all have "carbonating stones".

Related question I was under the impression that beer needed to be filtered before transfering into the corny, but nobody mentions that in this post. Is that cause it's a given or is that another brewers' choice thing?

I've been comtemplating just doing 1 week primary, 2 week secondary then right into the keg. Anybody do this?

[mookow]

Originally posted by ANGELofDEBT
First post but been kegging for about 2 years. I'm in the camp of "connect corny at serving pressure in my kegerator for 3-4 days" but my cornys all have "carbonating stones".

Related question I was under the impression that beer needed to be filtered before transfering into the corny, but nobody mentions that in this post. Is that cause it's a given or is that another brewers' choice thing?

I've been comtemplating just doing 1 week primary, 2 week secondary then right into the keg. Anybody do this?

First, let me say that I dont own a corny at the moment. Next, it is my understanding that filtering is up to the brewer. If you dont filter, the first pint or two may come with a lot of yeast, but after that you should be fine (unless you bump/move the keg).

[danno]

Originally posted by ANGELofDEBT
First post but been kegging for about 2 years. I'm in the camp of "connect corny at serving pressure in my kegerator for 3-4 days" but my cornys all have "carbonating stones".

Related question I was under the impression that beer needed to be filtered before transfering into the corny, but nobody mentions that in this post. Is that cause it's a given or is that another brewers' choice thing?

I've been comtemplating just doing 1 week primary, 2 week secondary then right into the keg. Anybody do this? I secondary in cornies, and then serve from the same corny. nice thing about a 15cf chest freezer, it holds eight cornies, so I secondary/cold condition/carbonate/serve without ever moving the corny....

[ANGELofDEBT]

Originally posted by danno
I secondary in cornies, and then serve from the same corny. nice thing about a 15cf chest freezer, it holds eight cornies, so I secondary/cold condition/carbonate/serve without ever moving the corny....

How much sediment comes out? Have you modified the dip tube so it doesn't draw from the very bottom of the corny?

[danno]

yeah, I cut 1/2" off the dip tubes, it minimizes, but doesn't eliminnate sediment when moved...