Can the Airlock let sanitizer into the carboy??

[voodoo]

Hello All,

Last night I tried to brew my FIRST batch of homebrew using an extract kit. I followed each step carefully, and went to bed dreaming of how great my beer is going to be.
When I got up this morning I was hoping to see a bit of foam in the carboy. Instead I got a terrible shock! It seems as if some of the sanitizing solution that I put in the air lock got SUCKED into the carboy!
When I left for bed, the inverted 'cup' in the airlock was floating nicely on about an inch of solution and there was about 1/4" of foam on top of the soon-to-be beer. This morning there was no foam at all, and the cup was all the way down in the airlock, resting on the 'stem' that leads down to the carboy! The level of the solution was all the way to the top of the stem; Meaning that if I added one more drop of solution to the air lock, a drop would fall down into the fermenting beer. It seems about an ounce or so was sucked INTO my beer, and I assume doing its job, and KILLING my yeast. I called the local home brew shop, and they can't imagine how it happened, and advised me to try to sprinkle some new, dry yeast into the carboy.
Has anyone seen this before? Any ideas?
Thanks!!

[wortchillergoal]

I know the pressure imbalance can draw the fluid out of the "S" shaped air locks. I don't know about the cup type but it would seem you have the answer as being yes.

I don't know that enough could have made it in to kill all your yeast. It might delay your fermentation though. Let us see what other realbeer members have to say.

[Wilson]

I guess it depends on what you were using as a "sanitizing solution" in your airlock. I use cheap vodka in my airlock for this very reason. If it gets sucked in, its just alcohol and wont ruin your beer.

[Trogger]

I use water in the airlock and haven't had a problem yet.. but I've never had any sucked back in. What sanitizer is it?

[toneyc]

It depends on the sanitizer you are using. If you are using bleach, that will be enough to be detectable. Not sure about Iodophor, that is probably too small to have any effect, and the other percarbonate sanitizers are probably OK, too. Unless it was bleach, I wouldn't worry about it. This is the reason I use cheap vodka in my airlock, though. RDWHAHB.

:)
Toney.

[voodoo]

First off, thank you all VERY much for your time and wisdom. It's really a blessing to have this site as a resource.

The sanitizer I used was an 'iodine looking' liquid named (BTF? BFT?) recommended to me by the local brew supply. I diluted 3 cap-fulls in 3 gallons of water (The person at the brew supply said that was a good concentration to use).

It seems that the consensus is that it won’t “harm” the beer (flavor?), but do I need to pitch more yeast? Or should I wait and see if fermentation starts anyway?

Also, by your replies it seems like this isn’t uncommon? I couldn’t figure out how SUCTION was created, when the opposite should be true. I’m guessing that cheap vodka is the way to go, as it won’t be the end of the world if the beer gets an extra tiny ‘kick’.

Thanks again!

Edit: It was B-T-F Iodophor Sanitizer made by National Chemicals, Inc. Winona, MN

[fretlessman71]

Never heard of that either. But I'm sure you'r beer won't be ruined, and you may not even notice a difference. But yeah - next time I do it, I'm buying a little airline-sized bottle of vodka for 99 cents for my airlock. There's no way I'd ever drink enough vodka to warrant a large bottle!

And since no one has said this yet, let me be the first: Welcome to the boards! You've found what is probably the friendliest online beer community in existence, or at least to our knowledge.. that's why we're all still here. Cheers! :)

[fuji6100]

I've always used the S shaped airlocks, and they are designed to "gurgle" forward or backward, so I"ve never had any sanitizer get into the beer (but I also use cheap vodka)

When I lager, I typically get reverse bubbling for the first half hour or so as the temp drops dramatically.

[wortchillergoal]

The sucking action is a result of pressure imbalance. There is enough of a difference between the outside pressure and inside the carboy that fluid from the airlock can be drawn in. This will continue of course until the pressure in and out is equal qand is not uncommon.

I at times put a slighty mosit with sanitizer paper towel over my carboy for a few minutes after filling it. This gives the pressure a chance to equal out. I do this as I most often go to bed shortly after pitching the yeast and I don't want the fluid sucked into the carboy, not to bad of a thing if vodka, or for it to be pulling in air over night.

I am a goalie and we do things for no good reason also.

[danno]

the pressure imbalance that causes suckback is caused by a temperature drop. sounds like you're not getting enough chilling prior to wort pitching, and if that's the case, a little sanitizer is the least of your worries (unless you used bleach)...

[wortchillergoal]

Is there another cause besides the temp? I have dumped my wort into the carboy at 60 degrees and had to fight the suck back.

[BluesHarp]

...another reason to use a blowoff tube with the end below the carboy; you will not get enough suction to draw liquid up that far.

BTW...the only time I've seen this is when my wort cools after going into the carboy.

[brewmonkey]

The sucking is caused by a vacuum created when the wort is hotter then ambient temps and the vessel is sealed. As the wort cools it will create a vacuum and suck the airlock dry.

A good way to avoid this is to cool the wort to within 5 degrees (F) of ambient temps and then put the airlock on. If this is not possible use vodka in the airlock and you will NEVER have to worry about it contaminating your wort/beer.

Any cheap vodka will work as well you can use it in a spray bottle to spray down lids, spoons etc... when needed. Now it does not take the place of a good sani regimen but it comes in very handy when you have to do things like take a sample.

I will also have to disagree with all who say a little sani in the beer is not a problem. Any amount in the product like the amount in the airlock is not good for the beer. You work hard to make this beer why would you put chemicals in to it?

Switch to vodka and you will never go wrong.

[BluesHarp]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
I will also have to disagree with all who say a little sani in the beer is not a problem. Any amount in the product like the amount in the airlock is not good for the beer. You work hard to make this beer why would you put chemicals in to it?



If you use Star-san, you always have a little left in your carboy after it drips down; how does this differ?
Wasn't there someone here who claims to have actually poured a Star-san solution into his beer by mistake when topping off the carboy and it suffered no ill effects?

I agrre, though, make sure the wort is at room temperature before attaching the airlock.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
I will also have to disagree with all who say a little sani in the beer is not a problem. Any amount in the product like the amount in the airlock is not good for the beer. You work hard to make this beer why would you put chemicals in to it? I'm sure no one would intentionally do this, so not to worry.

Switch to vodka and you will never go wrong. Hah... words to live by! :D

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by BluesHarp
If you use Star-san, you always have a little left in your carboy after it drips down; how does this differ?
Wasn't there someone here who claims to have actually poured a Star-san solution into his beer by mistake when topping off the carboy and it suffered no ill effects?

I agrre, though, make sure the wort is at room temperature before attaching the airlock.

You should be draining out all that you can from the carboy by allowing it to hang upside down for a bit. However, I am willing to bet that if there is any left it is less then 5ml (1 tsp) which is about 10 times less then an airlock depending on the style of airlock.

Let me ask you this...

Would you drink sani by itself? I know I would not.

This is one of those things you will hear about a little is not going to hurt anything but I am telling you those people are wrong.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
I'm sure no one would intentionally do this, so not to worry.

Hah... words to live by! :D

Fret-

You would be surprised. Go through these forums and you will see how many people think that allowing some sani agent in the beer is fine. While they may not pour it directly in, allowing it to remain in the carboy after a sani cycle or placing the airlock on while to warm is the same thing.

This is probably the one thing I am more anal about then anything else. Why would someone go through all the effort to create this product and then allow this to happen?

I may come off sounding a bit arrogant (and I apologize) on this but it is something I am 100% positive on.

[voodoo]

Well, I'm VERY happy to say that it SEEMS all is well! I went to the LHBS on the way home, and got some yeast, a sweet glass airlock that allows air both ways (and other misc goodies that caught my eye). When I got home, I had a bubbling airlock, and some krausen! I guess I don’t need the extra yeast so I’ll stash it in the fridge for future emergencies. I swapped the air locks and filled the new one with VODKA (I will never use anything else now) and it's bubbling beautifully!
I think about 1 - 1.5 ounces of sanitizer got in the wort. We'll see how it ends up tasting. Perhaps I've stumbled on a great new recipe, Voodoo's vanishing air lock ale?

The problem was absolutely that the wort cooled after I put the airlock on. The instructions I was following told me to add the hot wort to the carboy that already contained 3 gallons of cold water, resulting in the correct temp. I had to let it cool a bit so I could pitch the yeast at 74 Deg F. In my anxious state and the fact that it was now 3:00am, I hurried to place the airlock and go to bed. My cold, drafty house further cooled the wort, resulting in suction at the airlock. My first hard LESSON LEARNED. Hopefully it won't cost me a nasty tasting beer.

Thanks to all of you for your great advice (you were all 100% correct). Hopefully I won't have too many more horror stories during my next batch.
All the best,
Voodoo

[Caffinehog]

Hmmm... I use star-san sanitizer mostly. I can taste the negative results of bleach, even if I rinse thouroughly. I can taste iodine, too, but it doesn't hurt the flavor as much. Star-san, I don't have to rinse, or even get everything out, and I can't taste it. Of course, everyone tastes certain things differently. I've also used the white powdery sanitizer in the past, and I can't taste that, but it's not as easy to work with IMHO. Good luck. The darker the beer, the less likely you are to taste whatever got in there.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Caffinehog
Hmmm... I use star-san sanitizer mostly. I can taste the negative results of bleach, even if I rinse thouroughly. I can taste iodine, too, but it doesn't hurt the flavor as much. Star-san, I don't have to rinse, or even get everything out, and I can't taste it. Of course, everyone tastes certain things differently. I've also used the white powdery sanitizer in the past, and I can't taste that, but it's not as easy to work with IMHO. Good luck. The darker the beer, the less likely you are to taste whatever got in there.

Residual Star San is certainly not going to have the same effects on flavor profile as Iodophor or Bleach but there is far more then flavor that is affected by exces residual sani.

The trace amount left on a dried carboy is not what I am talking about, it is the excess amount not drained properly.

[Fast_Eddy]

Umm - iodine is poisonous to humans.

http://www.natlchem.com/HTML/TECH/MSDS/Iodo-MSDS.pdf#search='iodophor%20poison'

[danno]

it's probably bad for you at full strength, but at 12.5 ppm you'd drown before you were poisoned...

[Trogger]

Iodine is used in relatively diluted quantities to kill all the buggy like things in drinking water when you go back country camping or backpacking. It comes in little tabs that you put in water, wait 30 minutes, then drink... It takes a lot to be poisonous. I used that as my drinking water treatment for a whole week in a back country hiking trip and didn’t die…(neither did any of the other 7 people I was with.)

[Fly Creek]

Originally posted by Trogger
It comes in little tabs that you put in water, wait 30 minutes, then drink... It takes a lot to be poisonous.

But, it doesn't take a lot to make some horrible tasting drinking water... ;)

[c0nsumer]

[i]Let me ask you this...

Would you drink sani by itself? I know I would not.[/B]

I have. I figured that once it was mixed to injestable quantites it is safe, and I wanted to know how it tasted. Per the data sheets, sanitizers for use on food products (Iodophor and Star San both are) are consumable when mixed in quantites to be used on food products. So, I took a small drink of the Iodophor solution and the Star San solution. As expected, Iodophor tastes like drinking water treated with iodine, and Star San tastes mildly sour.

I've actually switched to Star San, and after getting used to using an acid for sanitization (it discolores a bit of my sink inside of the drain, foams, and needs to be rinsed from the outside of bottles) it's fine.

Also, I believe Star San is an acid which is found in beer, so the residue isn't really adding any foreign substances to the beer. Just more of one chemical that was already there.

(Sorry, I don't remember the name of the acid off the top of my head, and I can't seem to find the Star San MSDS online anywhere.)

-Steve

[Trogger]

Originally posted by Fly Creek
But, it doesn't take a lot to make some horrible tasting drinking water... ;)

No kidding there. There are neutralizer tabs for the iodine that are used after the 30 minute treatment time to make it not taste like crap. The leader of our group (who was in charge of pretty much everything since it was a high school trip) didn't get any. We tried using sugar free Kool-Aid to mask the flavor, but it kinda made it worse, in a way... eck.
For that reason, and as noted above that these sanitizers do have a taste, I always rinse my equipment and bottles at least once after sanitizing.