What can I steep?

[guildofevil]

When doing an extract brew, what can I steep, to improve the complexity of the beer?

I know I can steep the likes of Biscuit malt or Aromatic malt, to improve flavour and colour but would steeping Crystal Malt or Base Malts improve the finished extract beer?

If I end up with uncrushed grains, would crushing them with a rolling pin do the trick, if I plan to steep them, rather than mashing?

Séan

[Trogger]

Being relatively inexperienced myself, you should take my answer with a grain of salt, on the "what to steep issue" but I wouldn't steep base grains. Just grains that impart desired flavors into my beer. I research the flavors I want on-line or in a book before choosing.

As far as crushing, I started using a rolling pin, then switched to a beer bottle after I realized I ruined my girlfriend's rolling pin--lots of little dents and marks all over it. The bottle works better anyway, since it's harder. (Hang on tight, it's slippery.) Mostly, though, I just order my grains crushed when I buy them. Without the proper equipment, crushing is a pain in the…

[Fly Creek]

Trog: At the risk of sounding like an over-protective mother (mutha?), get your own rolling pin, or a mill if the budget allows. If that botlle you are using breaks, your brew session will be ruined.:(

[ray m]

Guild.....like what Trog said, it's basically a waste of time & effort steeping base grains, because their starches have not been converted to sugars like those of the specialty malts. Crystal malts, the darker roasted malts, and believe other malts like caramunich can be steeped with good results. Malts like wheat malt, rye, munich, vienna, carapils can be steeped, but if you mash them, they contribute so much better results as far as flavor, aroma, etc. (I think munich & vienna don't contribute a whole heck of a lot if you steep those).

[guildofevil]

Trogger:

I have a stone rolling pin and I'm the cook, as well as the brewer, so I don't have to worry about my girlfreind objecting. It's MY kitchen!

Originally posted by ray m
Guild.....like what Trog said, it's basically a waste of time & effort steeping base grains, because their starches have not been converted to sugars like those of the specialty malts.

Thanks. That's what I was looking for. I knew there was a reason not to use Base Malts but couldn't, for the life of me, remember what it was.

I'll stick to speciallity grains.

Séan

[Trogger]

Originally posted by Fly Creek
Trog: At the risk of sounding like an over-protective mother (mutha?), get your own rolling pin, or a mill if the budget allows. If that botlle you are using breaks, your brew session will be ruined.:(

Shortly after I realized what had happened, we also found a second rolling pin in the drawer... So she still has one for pies. I liked the way the bottle worked better anyway due to hardness. I wouldn’t have had to crush the grains, normally, but I accidentally ordered some uncrushed...I agree that a broken beer bottle would suck. I'll stick to ordering my grains pre-crushed until I'm ready to invest in mashing.

As far as her objecting, she wasn't mad. It was a cheap rolling pin. And now we can make pies with textured crust!

[Lamprey]

There was a good article in BYO mag a year or two ago about steeping vs mashing and it included a table of what to steep and what requires mashing (to get any value). I'll post what issue the article was in if I can locate it - maybe you could access it on-line.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by guildofevil
Trogger:

I have a stone rolling pin and I'm the cook, as well as the brewer, so I don't have to worry about my girlfreind objecting. It's MY kitchen!



Thanks. That's what I was looking for. I knew there was a reason not to use Base Malts but couldn't, for the life of me, remember what it was.

I'll stick to speciallity grains.

Séan

Not only do you not get any benefit from the base malts - the extracted starches are detrimental(to flavor and shelf life). If you want to use base malts - try a partial mash - it's easy and results in better, more complex beer.

[Lamprey]

Originally posted by Lamprey
There was a good article in BYO mag a year or two ago about steeping vs mashing and it included a table of what to steep and what requires mashing (to get any value). I'll post what issue the article was in if I can locate it - maybe you could access it on-line.

The BYO issue was November 2003.

Also, go to Section 12.4.1 "Table of Typcial Malt Yields" here (http://www.howtobrew.com) - if there is not a number in the far right hand column (PPG Steep), then you have to mash to get the sugars out.

[fuji6100]

Buscuit and Aromtic are also on the "no no" list For steeping. Basically if you steep base malts or any malt with unconverted starches, you set yourself up for a lot of problems (infection, haze, aftertaste, high FG). When I get home from work I'll post a chart of what can and cannot be steeped.

[Fast_Eddy]

The list is essentially anything that can convert itself can not be steeped, IIRC.

[danno]

Originally posted by Fast_Eddy
The list is essentially anything that can convert itself can not be steeped, IIRC. I like this "rule of thumb", but if you're a) new at this and b) an BYO reader, this can get confusing. in recipe after recipe in BYO, they call for some base grains, some specialty grains, and tell you "to steep for 45-60 minutes at 150ºF in X quarts of water", which is basically a mini-mash. so add this "grain of salt" to this "rule of thumb"...

[Fly Creek]

I find this to be one of the most confusing aspects of homebrewing and the main reason that I avoid trying to invent my own recipes. I was thumbing thru Dave Miller's "Homebrewer's Bible" the other day. In the three page section on malts, he wrote that basically ALL american malts are modified. (At least, that's my recollection - I did not buy the book). Anyway, that would lead me to believe that you would want to mash everything and avoid steeping at lower temps.

As I said bfore, I'm confused and very possibly totally wrong. :confused:

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by Fly Creek
I find this to be one of the most confusing aspects of homebrewing and the main reason that I avoid trying to invent my own recipes. I was thumbing thru Dave Miller's "Homebrewer's Bible" the other day. In the three page section on malts, he wrote that basically ALL american malts are modified. (At least, that's my recollection - I did not buy the book). Anyway, that would lead me to believe that you would want to mash everything and avoid steeping at lower temps.

As I said bfore, I'm confused and very possibly totally wrong. :confused:

Modified and converted are not the same thing. Modified(malting) is going from a more complex carbohydrate to a less complicated starch. So fully modified means that the carbs are fully available to converted by the enzymes. Converted(mashing) means those starches have been changed into considerably less complex sugars(maltose, maltotriose,etc) that are then available to the yeast.

[Trogger]

So, If I "steep" a sack of specialty grains at about 150 to 155 for 30 or 45 minutes, is that a partial mash?

[danno]

Originally posted by Trogger
So, If I "steep" a sack of specialty grains at about 150 to 155 for 30 or 45 minutes, is that a partial mash? not unless there's some base malt along with it to convert the specialty grains. otherwise all you're doing is steeping. if you're planning on steeping that way, you might as well get some base malt and add it to it. you'll get some fermentables out of the grains that way, instead of just color and flavor. (you get that too, with a partial mash...)

and watch your water quantity. a common newbie mistake (it took me 4 batches to figure this out...) is to steep your grains in the full volume of water. this will extract tannins from the grains and give an astringent taste to your beer. you want to steep(mash) at 1 to 1.5 quarts per lb of grain...

[Fly Creek]

Please forgive me for being so obtuse, but...

Are "specialty grains" um-modified (and is un-modified the same as un-malted)? This would make sense to me if I'm correct in my understanding that specialty grains add color, flavor, etc. but no fermentables.

BUT, I thought caramel, crystal, carapils (to name a few) were specialty grains - that is to say un-modified (or only slightly modified?). But the suppliers' web pages indicated that they are all malts...

Does any of this make any sense? Maybe I should just call it quits for the day, get a beverage and wait for the publication of the Barley for Idiots cheatsheet... :)

[BrewDog]

Are "specialty grains" um-modified (and is un-modified the same as un-malted)? This would make sense to me if I'm correct in my understanding that specialty grains add color, flavor, etc. but no fermentables.

un-modified is not the same as un-malted

From Palmer:
Malting (http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12.html)

Modification (http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-4.html)

Conversion is the process of taking starches and making sugars out of them.

Sugars are the fermentables, not starches. Therefore, anything that adds sugars adds fermentables. Some grains just add more than others.

BUT, I thought caramel, crystal, carapils (to name a few) were specialty grains - that is to say un-modified (or only slightly modified?). But the suppliers' web pages indicated that they are all malts...

No, the difference is that caramel, crystal, etc, are already Converted. That means that you don't need to convert them. There are already sugars present.
Yes, they are all malts.

HTH-

[Lamprey]

[i]No, the difference is that caramel, crystal, etc, are already Converted. That means that you don't need to convert them. There are already sugars present.
Yes, they are all malts. HTH- [/B]

not unless there's some base malt along with it to convert the specialty grains. otherwise all you're doing is steeping. if you're planning on steeping that way, you might as well get some base malt and add it to it. you'll get some fermentables out of the grains that way, instead of just color and flavor. (you get that too, with a partial mash...)

:confused:

If they are already converted, why would base malts be required to convert them? I'm confused. I need a beer - and it's only 8:00 am.

[Fly Creek]

Originally posted by Lamprey
: I'm confused. I need a beer - and it's only 8:00 am.

Same here. This is going to be one of those personal puzzlers that sends today's productivity down the tubes...

Seriously tho, thank you B-Dog, Danno and Fast Ed for the input. I will figure this out... :)

[Lamprey]

Originally posted by Fly Creek
Same here. This is going to be one of those personal puzzlers that sends today's productivity down the tubes...

Seriously tho, thank you B-Dog, Danno and Fast Ed for the input. I will figure this out...

I thank them also! :) I'm just a bit slow sometimes. Trying to solve drinking water quality issues and trying to figure out starch conversion to sugars is just a little too much at once.

[guildofevil]

You know, I think I get it.

I also think I have been persuaded to do a partial mash for my next beer.

Looking forward to it.

Séan

[Trogger]

I think I’m getting the idea… but it definitely is confusing at first. If I use crystal or caramel I can steep and some sugars will result without a base grain present to provide enzymes?
If I use black patent, etc, then I would need some base grains to provide enzymes to bring out the sugars and make them fermentable. Also, the way I understand it is that Cara-pils and roasted barley are not fermentable in either case…
I’m thinking the best bet is to go all grain, but I hadn’t planned on that until at least next year when I have more time..(and hopefully a new job to provide additional $.)
Also, my original statement of “I wouldn’t steep base grains” would thus be incorrect. To be safe, I should get some 2 row or 6 row and put it in with my adjunct grains and steep or mini mash in the appropriate amount of water for, what, 30-45 minutes to help convert them?
Man this is getting complex…I agree with lamprey, its 8 AM where I am and I already need a beer…

Thank you all for your help. This board is a great resource of experience to tap into for beginners.

[noby]

Originally posted by guildofevil
You know, I think I get it.

I also think I have been persuaded to do a partial mash for my next beer.

Looking forward to it.

Séan

I'd defenitley reccommend it, Sean. I've only done one, after several steepings, and for not much extra effort or equipment (large pot, large sieve), this was by far the best brew I've ever done. Planning another one for next weekend.


"...To be safe, I should get some 2 row or 6 row and put it in with my adjunct grains and steep or mini mash in the appropriate amount of water for, what, 30-45 minutes to help convert them?"

Trogger, the way I look at it, If you do the above, you've gone from steeping to mini-mashing


Cormac.

[BrewDog]

Trogger-
You're really close and have the right idea:
I think I’m getting the idea… but it definitely is confusing at first. If I use crystal or caramel I can steep and some sugars will result without a base grain present to provide enzymes?

RIGHT!

If I use black patent, etc, then I would need some base grains to provide enzymes to bring out the sugars and make them fermentable.

Nope. Black Patent, & chocolate are already converted, too, so you don't need to have base malts present.

From Briess.com: (http://www.briess.com/homebrew/basicsofbrewing.shtml)

Tea Bagging
Tea bagging is very useful for varying the color and flavor of homebrewed beer. These Briess products can all be tea bagged: Caramel malt, Black Malt, Roasted Barley, Chocolate Malt, Dark Chocolate Malt, Black Barley, Victory? Malt, Extra Special Malt, and Special Roast. It is not recommended to tea bag Briess Pale Ale Malt, Munich Malts, or Carapils(r) Malt. Starch could be extracted which would interfere later in the brewing process. Cheesecloth, a nylon stocking, or any fine mesh material will work well for tea bagging. here's the method.

[Trogger]

So the for the grains they don't recommend tea bagging or steeping, throw in some base malt for enzyme into the mini mash bag and it may help solve the problem?

[BrewDog]

So the for the grains they don't recommend tea bagging or steeping, throw in some base malt for enzyme into the mini mash bag and it may help solve the problem?

Yup, you got it.

Just be aware that for a mini-mash, temperature and mash water volume are very important. There are a ton of threads here in the all-grain section that discuss why the best thing to do (for a mini-mash) is mash at 152-153 degrees F, as well as why you want to mash with about 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain, then sparge (rinse) with 172 *F water of roughly the same volume (maybe a little more - 1.5 quarts per pound).

HTH-

[Grog]

Here is a list of steepable grains from Palmer's, How to Brew.

Typical yield for steeping (points per gallon):

Pale Crystal (25-40°) - 22 ppg
Med. Crystal (60-80°) - 18 ppg
Dark Crystal (120°) - 16 ppg
Chocolate Malt - 15 ppg
Roasted Barley - 21 ppg
Black Patent - 21 ppg

All of the above malts are fully converted and can be "tea bagged".

Brown Malt (8 ppg), Dextrin Malt (4 ppg), Lt. Crystal (10-15°) (14 ppg) can be steeped, but have a fair portion of unconverted starches (thus the low yield) and should be part of a mini-mash to make the unconverted starches available.



Man, I hope this does not confuse things.

-G-

[Trogger]

Grog,
I don't think that confuses things at all. Helps a bit, actually.

In my next batch, I'm going to add 1/2 pound of 2-row with my other grains. Per Briess, it is highly enzymatic and requires mashing... I'll use the appropriate amount and temp of water, mash for about an hour or so and do some attempt at a sparge/rinse with the bag and a colander. Then do as usual and cross my fingers.

Thanks all.

[guildofevil]

This thread got me looking at improving my equipment but I am on a strict budget, due to my mortgage being less than a year old. Property is expensive in Dublin.

As luck would have it, a friend of mine has an Electrim Bruheat Mashing Bin, which he will not be using for the next six months to a year.

All Grain here I come.

Séan

[fuji6100]

Looks like I'm a little late with this, but just in case it is useful

http://www.bodensatz.com/staticpages/index.php?page=Grains


Trog. How much specialty grain are you using? Be sure you have enough base malt (2-row, in your case) to convert all the other grains. The site I just listed also gives enzymatic power for some of the malts (though I think they understate it a bit).

It claims that 2-row can convert its own weight +20%. Seems a bit on the low end, but even if that number were 100%, then you would still need an equal weight of 2 row as your other specialty grains.

Anybody have more accurate data on enzymatic power?

[Trogger]

You aren't late. That is useful. I'm not sure how much base malt to use, so I better at least go 50% base, 50% specialty...
I also just ordered one of these fun little toys I found on and all grain thread.

http://www.heartshomebrew.com/home_brew_beer.cgi?cart_id=5481915.31383*Yr3Uq6&p_id=9003&xm=on&ppinc=dave2full

[fuji6100]

Trog, I got mine in the mail last week. For $21 it looks like a good deal, though after looking at it I might have been able to make one myself for around the same price, so at least they save you the aggrivation of doing it.

I plan on trying it out on my next batch, but I got a little brew-happy in nov/dec and have 2 full kegs and a brew lagering, and a mead conditioning, so I won't need to brew any more for a month or two.

[Trogger]

I actually realized after I bought it that that I have an extra 6.5 gallon bucket with a spigot that I could have bought a false bottom for... Hell, the bucket is big enough to go AG, but I would have to insulate it to get it to maintain a constant enough temp... and after the false bottom and insulating, etc... I would have spent the same. So, like I said before, this will be a fun little toy to experiment with.

[wortchillergoal]

For a nice dark beer, try steeping a hockey puck or two.

[Lamprey]

Originally posted by wortchillergoal
For a nice dark beer, try steeping a hockey puck or two.

Should they be new or used?

[Trogger]

Originally posted by Lamprey
Should they be new or used?

I'm guessing that depends on what flavors you are going for--fresh black rubber or sweaty hockey player locker room.

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by Lamprey
Should they be new or used?

I would suggest new as used ones tend to have nicks and cuts. Finding a bit of puck in your beer may not be to some people's liking. Used will do in a pinch.

Theordor would be more goalie glove sweat that locker room.