Cask beer in kegs?!

[stronk]

I was at a member's bar today at a golf club and had a quick glance around to look for handpumps. It was before lunch on a Monday, so I wasn't really going to have any beer anyway, but I tend to judge a pub on its cask choice.
I was walking away with my coca-cola, when my father pointed out that they had London Pride. I looked again and saw that they were serving London Pride and Young's Bitter out of normal keg taps! How on earth did they manage it? Surely Young's and Fuller's don't ruin their beers by pasteurising them and filling kegs to serve in this way? I think it unlikely, because I have never before seen them served this way and so there is probably an unprofitably small demand for it.

What's going on?

[danno]

stronk, most (if not all) keg beer is unpasteurized. even the evil Bud is unpasteurized in keg form... in brewery tours I've taken, secondary fermentation takes place in pressurized vessels, the beer is then kegged under it's own carbonation, or bottled and then flash pasteurized.

[chazwicke]

Hmmmmm Interesting. I can't recall seeing either except on hand pump in the UK either. Maybe because I, like you, am only looking for the pumps. Did you try either of them?

[newportstorm]

I've seen both Fuller's & Young's listed at several pubs here in the US. Here's one example:

http://www.horseshoepub.com/beerlst.asp

The Horseshoe always seems to advertise Fuller's & Young's. They may have beer engines, but not enough to cover all the selections they list. Only one of the lot I've tried on normal draft is the Young's Double Chocolate Stout - very tasty.

Cheers!

[chazwicke]

I've had the YDCS on Draught here in the states too. In fact it was at the Flying Saucer in Raleigh a couple of Mays ago. (I remember because it was one of my NC nephews graduations.) I too thought it was delightful.

[MeridianFC]

I've had both Young's and Fuller's in the keg format in the States. Whilst the market my be small for those beers in that particular format in the UK, I imagine it's about the only way they see the light of day outside your borders.

When I took the Young's tour last year, I found that they do a large business in contract Keg brewing. I saw several pallets of Lowenbrau of all things and apparently they've done Guinness in the past too, so they definitely have the ability to produce keg beer. Hell, now that I think about it they had a couple of the season specialities in the brewery tap as keg only!

[stronk]

I didn't try either of them, because I was about to play golf and it wouldn't have helped my (already bad) coordination. I'll have a taste next time.

stronk, most (if not all) keg beer is unpasteurized. even the evil Bud is unpasteurized in keg form... in brewery tours I've taken, secondary fermentation takes place in pressurized vessels, the beer is then kegged under it's own carbonation, or bottled and then flash pasteurized
This explains (if it's true) why draught beer always seems to taste better than bottled beer, even when it's kegged. It does seem odd, though, that you never find a pint of keg beer with yeast in it.

[MeridianFC]

Filtering and pasteurization are two different things (though they are often found in the same company). Though there are keg beers that are not filtered or pasturized but are forced pressureized (a lot of hefeweizens fit this description).

As a side note, I've had the worst craving for a nice pint of cask but there is nowt available to me (just a wee bit of Spesh Santa). Our friends in the UK should count cask amongst their blessings this festive season. ;)

[stronk]

I know, but I can't help but feel slightly blasphemous thanking God for beer!

[Richard English]

Keg beer might not be pasteurised but it will be filtered. It won't undergo a secondary fermentation and will need external carbon dioxide pressure to force it to the taps.

Even wonderful brewers like Youngs and Fullers supply a certain amount of their beer this way to outlets like clubs where the demand is slow or infrequent.

The beer is never as good as it is when it's cask-conditioned.

I have never heard of a secondary fermentation taking place in a keg although I suppose it would be possible with some modifications to the system that will allow proper venting of the carbon dioxide, and re-arrangement of the pickup to ensure that it doesn't deliver yeast to the bar.

But why bother? A barrel is the right vessel for the job so why not use it?

[stronk]

But why bother? A barrel is the right vessel for the job so why not use it?
I'd rather have a kegged pint of ale than a pint of cask ale that's past its prime in a place with low turnover.

I use kegs for homebrewing and I always save on CO2 by priming the keg with enough sugar to carbonate it without external pressure. Of course, I then have to use cylinder CO2 to keep it carbonated.

[Richard English]

I'd sooner have a good bottle-conditioned beer than a keg myself. The excuse about its better shelf life was what the brewers used to inflict keg beer onto us back in the 1960s. I just won't drink it under any circumstances.

Having said which, it's fairly unusual these days to get a bad pint and, even if you do, most publicans will change it without demur. There's one pub in Reigate that just keeps too many cask-conditioned beers on and I have probably sent more beers back there than in all other pubs put together. Although they change the beer without question, you'd think they'd get the message!

[Theakston]

Originally posted by Richard English
Keg beer might not be pasteurised but it will be filtered.

Not true. While a lot of Keg beer IS filtered there's no reason why it has to be and many craft brewers here in the USA do NOT filter their kegs (see for example Bell's Kalamazoo- motto "If god had wanted us to filter our beer he wouldn't have given us a liver").

[Richard English]

If a beer is neither flitered nor pasteurised it will still be living when it is put into its container and will, almost certainly, continue to ferment, albeit slowly.

If this is happening then the beer is developing in the container and this is what cask conditioning is all about.

If it is being done in a keg rather than a cask I could forsee difficulties in the control of the yeast deposit (there being no swell in a keg for the lees to drop into), but other than that it would seem quite possible and also quite pointless.

If you are going to have live beer in a container why not use a cask rather than a keg? If you want to put the beer under extraneous carbon dioxide that's still perfectly possible with a cask. And even if you wish to add to the destruction of flavour engendered by the extraneous carbon dioxide by using a flash cooler in the beer line, then that's possible too.

Incidentally let's be quite sure we are talking of the same things here; in the USA the term "keg" is often used interchangably with the term "cask". The terms are used differently in the UK.

A cask is a barrel-shaped container (a barrel is just one particular size of cask) and it is stored on its side with the beer being drawn from the end and the venting spile at the top. A keg is a cylindrical pressure vessel, stored on its end and with the beer being drawn and the carbon dioxide being admitted, from the top.

[beersom]

In Australia Coopers provide their beer as a live unfiltered, unpastuerized keg (not cask) conditioned beer. The co2 in the pub is merely helping deliver the beer to the tap. It is definitly not a Camra style Real Ale but more of an Aussie oddity. The beer comes out lightly hazy / cloudy in a similar fashion to a Hefe-Weizen and Coopers beers are known for this charecteristic appearance. most venues that serve their ales will store the keg upside down until hook-up so that the yest sediment will precipitate nicely through the life of the keg.
The bottled versions are bottle conditioned.

Originally these beers would have been served as cask but changed serving type as the beer culture in Aus changed. While most brewerys here adopted bland lagers and moved away from ales over the last century Coopers has stayed isolated and kept producing its unique little beers.

If stored right Coopers kegs will actually mature quite nicely.

A liitle bit different to what you guys do in the U.K. but I just thought it might make an interesting comparison for this thread...
Cheers

[Richard English]

I have not tried Coopers draught but have drunk all of their bottled beers (apart from the low-alcohol version!). Indeed, in one memorable session at the Red Ochre restaurant in Cairns I drank my way through a bottle of each and every one.

Cooper's Sparkling Ale is the one most commonly available in the UK and it is, by CAMRA standards, a real ale, being bottle-conditioned.

If their draught beer is put into its container unfiltered and unpasteurised then it will, almost certainly, continue to mature since it will still contain yeast. As homebrewers will know, although the initial violent fermentation will finish after just a few days, the wort will continue to work gently for a long time as the yeast consumes the remaining morsels of sugar. As you say "...If stored right Coopers kegs will actually mature quite nicely..." and that is, quite simply, a form of cask-conditioning. That it takes place in a keg, not a cask, is possibly simply because casks are no longer made in Australia. Conditioning is possible in any vessel; it's just that a cask is better designed for the job.

To my mind the Coopers draught is a real ale although, having a carbon-dioxide blanket, would not meet CAMRA's strict standards on external gas application. As I have said previously, CAMRA membership is divided on this point but presently a majority feel that externally applied carbon dioxide has no place.

Incidentally, the Autralian penchant for drink their Coopers cloudy is one that I experienced when I had my very first drink of that wonderful beer - in the Frog Bar in Karunda. I was surprised to see the barman invert the bottle and, to be honest, I didn't really like the cloudy result. Coopers throws a huge sediment and I prefer this drink poured without the yeast - although I don't bother with beers that throw a lesser sediment (like Fullers 1845). I wonder whether this preference is simply that of Australians who want others to realise that they are not drinking chemical fizz?

[beersom]

I agree that Coopers is a real ale although as you say in its draught form it is perhaps not a "Real Ale"(camra spec). I am yet to hear of them serving it from casks in recent years but there is no reason why they couldn't.

Cask ale is still served in some venues in Aus the most notable being The Wig and Pen in Canberra, very good beers all served to CAMRA standards. In Queensland XXXX still provide beer off the wood to a few venues although this is a bit of a charade as it is just a keg beer trasferred into a small cask. Although it is not"real" I actually don't mind the taste of it as the oak does impart its distinct taste to this otherwise bland beer.

Serving with the yeast sediment is something that I believe helps define the taste of both Coopers Sparkling and Coopers Pale Ale . The aroma of this yeast in fresh examples has some similarities to that of hefe-weizens, although it is much more subdued. To my mind Coopers Sparkling ale is the very definition of an Australian Pale ale (moreso than their pale ale). The Sparkling ale was apparently a popular style produced by many breweries in years gone by.

I am interested to find that fullers produce London Pride in a keg form. This brings about the possibility that I may be able to source a keg or two here in Aus. I work as a consultant and Sommelier at a Beer cafe here in Aus and would LOVE to put an English ale on our draught line up. We do serve London Pride and ESB by the bottle but having it on tap as a guest beer would be great. Cask would be better but we all know that its not going to happen!
cheers

[Richard English]

Quote "...Cask would be better but we all know that its not going to happen!..."

Well, the Americans seem to manage.

I was drinking Fuller's ESB and London Pride, plus Marston Pedigree and Old Speckled Hen in the Cricketer's Arms in Florida. All cask conditioned and all served perfectly (and at normal US prices).

In days of Empire the British managed to ship real ale to the far corners of the globe - before either keg beer or aeroplanes were invented. The impossibility of shipping good beers is as much as a myth as the myth that Australians wouldn't drink them. Given the chance they'll woof them down.

Why not talk to the Head Brewer at Fullers? I'll be seeing him next month and will be interested to hear what he has to say.

[Theakston]

Originally posted by Richard English
If a beer is neither flitered nor pasteurised it will still be living when it is put into its container and will, almost certainly, continue to ferment, albeit slowly.

Actually it would have been conditioned in a tank prior to its being kegged. At the time it is kegged the yeast will have used up all of the sugars. The problem then becomes one of autolysis - having used up the sugars the yeast cells start to eat up each other, this can cause a rubbery taste and a sulphury smell.

Having spoken with several craft brewers here in the USA they are pretty evenly divided over the issue of filtering.

Those against it claim that it only saves conditioning time and, if it is left to settle out in the conditioning tanks for long enough, it would be quite clear and relatively free of the dead yeast cells.

Those in favour of filtering claim that the beers would otherwise be cloudy and taste of autolysized yeast.

I've tasted many unfiltered beers and while some have been a little hazy i've never really found them to have any off flavours.

One more thing though Richard. This is NOT the same as cask conditioning. It is conditioned in a large tank prior to kegging. When this step is finished there is virtually no CO2 in the beer. The CO2 has to then be artificially applied to the keg.

As you know Cask conditioned beer is conditioning in the cask from which it is tapped and served. As it is still conditioning as it is served, it does continue to ferment and it will contain the naturally occuring CO2 from this activity.

[Richard English]

I agree that this is not cask-conditioning as we would normally know it. As I actually said, it is "...a form of cask-conditioning...". And, as you say, if the fermentation has more or less finished, then there will be little carbon dioxide produced and extraneous gas will need to be added. But, like bottle-conditioned beer, such beer will continue to develop - which pasteurised beer will not.

And I agree; I have never seen the necessity for filtration. It benefits the brewers and thr publicans more than it does the drinker and it is a fortunate coincidence (for them) that, in the mind of the unknowing many, clear beer = good beer and cloudy beer = bad beer.

Serve them crystal-clear Dudweiser and they'll think it's wonderful (just a shame about the taste but, hey, if it's ice-cold who will ever know?)

[MeridianFC]

I just wanted to pipe in and say I'm for Cooper's with the yeast in the glass. Makes for a delicious beer.

[stronk]

Is Coopers Sparkling Ale worth a try? I've seen it around in the UK, but have always seen something I'd rather get and have never got around to trying it.

[Richard English]

Usually I have no bother with yeast but Coopers does throw a particularly heavy sediment - so heavy, in fact, that the flavour of the drink is altered (not worsened) slightly. I prefer it decanted but that is surely a matter of taste.

And is it worth a try? Yes. It's not bad at all. By Australian chemical fizz standards it is ambrosia; by UK standards it's just good - and there are many better.

Worth a bottle just so you know but you'll probably go back to something like Hop Back Summer Lightning which is similar in many ways but more full-bodied and a lot cheaper over here.

[chazwicke]

Many of the hefe weizens we get here are not filtered. And I have never minded yeast hazing my beer. Yeast is good for you.

I have enjoyed most of the Coopers beers that have been available here but they are never a first choice. Although I'm not certain why.

I had a couple of old bottles of Hopback Summer Lightning that were not good (And the same with a couple bottles of Coniston). as with most beer, the fresher, the better.

But I am with Richard. I prefer cask first and BCA second.

[chazwicke]

Oh and welcome Beersom. Good to have another Aussie member.

[noby]

Originally posted by stronk
I looked again and saw that they were serving London Pride and Young's Bitter out of normal keg taps!

Back to the original point, I have a theory:
Don't some places use electric pumps instead of handpumps, if the cellar is some distance away? If so, wouldn't the taps just look like keg taps?


Cormac

[Richard English]

There was a brief vogue for electric pumps in some areas (in the north of England more than the south) but it didn't last and I don't think anyone uses them now - although I am happy to be corrected on this point.

They have several disadvantages over handpumps:

They don't work if there's a power cut
They deliver more slowly than a handpump (around the speed of a fizz-beer font)
They don't create a head
They don't look so nice
and, of course, people can be confused and assume that no proper beer is available.

They last electric pumps I saw actually had a sign on them that said something like: "cask-conditioned beer served by electric pump".

So far as I can tell, the main advantage of the electric pump is that the delivery lines and the pump capacity is less than that of a hand pump and so there is less wastage when pulling through the beer left overnight. But, if a pub has any kind of turnover at all this will be a very minimal advantage.

[noby]

AS I said, just a theory. No real basis for it.