Second Brew - Suggestions?

[c0nsumer]

Hey everyone... I've been reading through most of the topics in the 'Extract Brewing' forum, BYO.com, through a few books, and at various sites online and I've pieced together the steps I'm thinking of taking for my next (and second) beer. I'm curious if anyone has any opinion about this, if they think it will be successful, etc.

For what it's worth, this was originally a Brewer's Best kit, from the Bold series, for a California Style Imperial Pale Ale. I've decided to use WLP051 (California Ale V) yeast instead of the DanStar Nottingham the kit came with. I think I'm also going to add one pound of two-row pale malt to the one pound of Crystal Malt (120°) which will be steeped as part of making the wort.

As I currently have no method of filtering the water at home, I'm using Ice Mountain-brand spring water. I'll also be adding irish moss near the end of the boil, as it seems to have contributed to the clarity of my first batch. (Which has yet gone untasted, as it was bottled only a week ago....)

Anyway, here's the steps I'm planning on using tomorrow, pasted from my personal notes:

- Place grain bag in 2.5 quarts of water obtained from one water jug.
- Add remainder of water from first jug to 20qt stock pot.
- Fill stock pot with water from second jug until ~2/3 full (to prevent boil over).
- Bring grain + water in smaller pot to 160°F. Hold at temp for 30 - 45 minutes. At the same time, bring water in large pot up to near boil.
- After steeping the grains, drain the grain bag and transfer the remaining liquid to the larger stock pot.
- Bring water in large stock pot to a boil.
- Add 1/2 of the LME.
- Add flavoring hops.
- At +00:15, add DME.
- At +00:30, add bittering hops.
- At +00:45, add irish moss.
- At +00:55, add aroma hops.
- At +01:00, turn off heat and add the remainder of the LME, stirring gently to ensure LME is dissolved.
- Allow to stand for a few minutes.
- Place large stock pot in tub of ice water, occasionally stirring without splashing or sloshing, until temp is down to 70°F.
- Pour cooled wort through mesh bag into plastic bucket.
- Add room-temperature water until 5 gallon mark is reached.
- Pour wort from bucket into carboy, through a funnel fitted with a screen. Screen may need to be cleared mid-pour, depending on the lingering particulate after the bag screening.
- Cap carboy, and shake liberally to aeriate. Ensure that cap doesn't come off.
- Shake, open, then pour yeast vial into carboy.
- Add stopper + airlock, place carboy in dark area to begin fermentation.
- Rack to secondary fermenter after trub has mostly settled and fermentation has slowed drastically.
- Allow to age at least two weeks in secondary fermenter.
- Prime & Bottle.
- Age a few more weeks, tasting one per week or so.
- Drink. Enjoy?

Temperature can easily be maintained at 65°F or 70°F, depending on if I ferment/age in the basement or spare bathroom.

So... Does this sound like it'll work out fairly well? The only potential change I could see to make is calibrating the carboy and pouring straight from the brewpot into the carboy, adding the additional water in there. This would (unfortunately) eliminate the inital straining of the cold break and hops.

Thanks!

-Steve

[Fly Creek]

My $.02:

1. You might want to sparge your grains with some 170-ish degree water to get more of the fermentable goodies into the wort.

2. I pour directly from the brew pot to fermenter using a sanitized funnel with a screen insert for filtering (however, this does not really work to keep the hot/cold break out of the fermenter). Be sure to have some cold water in the fermenter before pouring the hot wort in.

3. Remove the "?" from the last step and replace with "!"

FWIW,
J

[c0nsumer]

1. You might want to sparge your grains with some 170-ish degree water to get more of the fermentable goodies into the wort.

Even though I was going to use the two-row just for flavor, do you still think this is a good idea? Maybe I could just also bring the pot to be used for the main boil to ~165°F and dunk the bag (post draining in the main pot) in there, and drain it once more? Would this accomplish a similar result?

2. I pour directly from the brew pot to fermenter using a sanitized funnel with a screen insert for filtering (however, this does not really work to keep the hot/cold break out of the fermenter). Be sure to have some cold water in the fermenter before pouring the hot wort in.

My biggest concern is quickly clogging the filter with the hops (I believe this kit has ~3oz pelletized), and not getting everything down to 70°F fast enough? I imagine it would work well for aeriating things, though....

3. Remove the "?" from the last step and replace with "!"

Hehe... I can only hope. :) Perhaps I'm a bit disheartened, because I tasted my first beer, from a steeped-grain brown ale kit w/hops added, four days after bottling, and it tasted overly sweet and barely carbonated. I think this is simply my impatience to know how things are progressing, and just not liking the flavor of unfinished beer. I'm thinking that for a better understanding of the whole process I'll open one bottle once a week and see how it's going.

Oh, and thanks for replying. I've been trying to learn as much as possible as quickly as possible.

-Steve

[Magnew]

My impression is that the 2-row cannot be steeped as a specialty grain. You would have to do a mini-mash to actually extract the starches and convert them to sugars. That would mean steeping at a constant 150* for 90-minutes then sparging with 170* water. Anyone have a different opinion?

[c0nsumer]

Originally posted by Magnew
My impression is that the 2-row cannot be steeped as a specialty grain. You would have to do a mini-mash to actually extract the starches and convert them to sugars. That would mean steeping at a constant 150* for 90-minutes then sparging with 170* water. Anyone have a different opinion?

Just FYI, I'd gotten this idea from tip 4 in this article (http://www.byo.com/feature/1175.html) at byo.com (http://www.byo.com).

-Steve

[Fly Creek]

Originally posted by c0nsumer
My biggest concern is quickly clogging the filter with the hops and not getting everything down to 70°F fast enough? I imagine it would work well for aeriating things, though....

Yes, the little screen does get clogged. I use a plastic spatula to swirl the wort and keep it flowing. It's probably not the greatest method, but I have been doing it for years with no major complaints. I still shake the carboy for aeration (cover the top with Saran wrap).

As for temps, I put my 16-qt brewpot in an ice bath for about 15 minutes before dumping it into the fermenter. When combined with the water I use from the tap, I get to yeast pitching temp in less than half an hour.

I just acquired a large brewpot with a built-in spigot on the bottom (making the move to all-grain). I'm looking forward to trying the whirlpool method straight to the fermenter. We'll see...

J

[c0nsumer]

Yes, the little screen does get clogged. I use a plastic spatula to swirl the wort and keep it flowing. It's probably not the greatest method, but I have been doing it for years with no major complaints. I still shake the carboy for aeration (cover the top with Saran wrap).

Ahh, okay... Perhaps I will pour it through the mesh bag into the bucket first. This will also prevent me from having to calibrate the carboy...

I just acquired a large brewpot with a built-in spigot on the bottom (making the move to all-grain). I'm looking forward to trying the whirlpool method straight to the fermenter. We'll see...

That sounds like it'll be nice. I've got a 20qt, maybe I should pick up a weldless spigot and install it... Then again, pouring 2.5 gallons (or so) isn't really that hard, even when it is boiling. Maybe I'll just wait until (if) I get a modified keg + burner.

-Steve

[danno]

Originally posted by Magnew
My impression is that the 2-row cannot be steeped as a specialty grain. You would have to do a mini-mash to actually extract the starches and convert them to sugars. That would mean steeping at a constant 150* for 90-minutes then sparging with 170* water. Anyone have a different opinion? conversion doesn't take 90 minutes, with most 2-row, it can be as little as a half an hour for full conversion...

Steve (oh no, not another Steve!), what you're doing with the 2 row and crystal is the essence of all grain brewing. get more grain, and a cooler with some sort of a manifold, and you don't have to use extract... it's really quite easy...

[c0nsumer]

Originally posted by danno
conversion doesn't take 90 minutes, with most 2-row, it can be as little as a half an hour for full conversion...

Steve (oh no, not another Steve!), what you're doing with the 2 row and crystal is the essence of all grain brewing. get more grain, and a cooler with some sort of a manifold, and you don't have to use extract... it's really quite easy...

This is only my second batch, but I think as the weather turns a bit nicer (~3-4 months from now) I might build up a kit to do all-grain brews, and full boils. It should be relatively cheap if I scrounge around a bit, and hit up a friend with a machine shop.

Hmm, that said, I think I will go with the recipe / steps I've described above... I just need to wait for the local homebrew shop to open back up (they are closed on Mondays) so I can get the 6.5 gallon carboy. I'd used a plastic pail as the primary for my first batch of beer, but something about it just didn't seem right to me... I'm sure it's fine, though.

Oh, that, and I need to get the two row and a funnel.

Thanks. :)

-Steve

[Magnew]

conversion doesn't take 90 minutes, with most 2-row, it can be as little as a half an hour for full conversion...

I stand corrected. It's just that the partial mash recipes I have made all called for a 90-minute mash on the 2-row plus specialty grains. Is it the chocolate malts etc that take longer?

[BrewDog]

Magnew is right. You want to do a mini-mash.
Don't freak out -- it is easier than it sounds.

Here is an article that explains how (http://byo.com/feature/986.html)

Here's another (http://www.sfhomebrew.com/partialmash.html)

Welcome to the board!

[BrewDog]

Time to convert is based partly on mash temp. Beta conversion is slower, even though it is more complete. You could do a low temp (140) mash that will be fermentable as hell, but it will take a long, long time.

153*F is the good tradeoff between Beta and Alpha Amylase activity.

[c0nsumer]

Originally posted by BrewDog
Magnew is right. You want to do a mini-mash.
Don't freak out -- it is easier than it sounds.

Here is an article that explains how (http://byo.com/feature/986.html)

Here's another (http://www.sfhomebrew.com/partialmash.html)

Welcome to the board!

Thank you. :) And based on those two pages, that sounds kinda like what I was planning on doing... I'd imagine I'll end up standing over the pot playing with the flame for a bit, but that's not a big deal.

So, as soon as the local homebrew shops get 6.5 gallon carboys back in stock (I'm really hoping this is tomorrow), I'm good to go!

I'm debating fully documenting this one with photos. I partially documented my first batch here (http://www.nuxx.net/gallery/brewing_beer_firstbatch), but I wouldn't mind something a bit more complete to show friends. Although that's kinda hard to do when alone.

-Steve

[BrewDog]

The only thing I'd change to what you are suggesting is to be very careful about mashing at 153 (a few degrees makes a LOT of difference), and starting the mash with 1.25 to 1.5 quarts per pound of grain. Otherwise, it should work nicely!

Steve

[c0nsumer]

Originally posted by BrewDog
The only thing I'd change to what you are suggesting is to be very careful about mashing at 153 (a few degrees makes a LOT of difference), and starting the mash with 1.25 to 1.5 quarts per pound of grain. Otherwise, it should work nicely!

Steve

Oh, great. :) So for 2 lbs of grain total (1 lb of two-row and 1 lb of crystal 120) 2.5 quarts should be good...

Wow, this combined with the 6.6 lbs of Amber LME and 2 lbs of DME should make for a fairly strong beer.

Neat.

Wow, thanks! I can't wait to try this...

-Steve

[c0nsumer]

Originally posted by BrewDog
The only thing I'd change to what you are suggesting is to be very careful about mashing at 153 (a few degrees makes a LOT of difference), and starting the mash with 1.25 to 1.5 quarts per pound of grain. Otherwise, it should work nicely!

Steve

Oh, one other thing... After steeping the grain in a small side pot, would you sparge the grain bag by dunking it in the main pot of water a few times? I'm thinking dipping it four or five times in about 2 gallons of 170°F water?

-Steve

[Magnew]

When I do a partial mash sparge I put the grain bag in a colander that sits on top of the brew pot. I pour the sparge water over the grains so that the colander fills to above the level of the grains and let it just drain out into the brew pot. It's easy.

Also, I have found with partial mash that I get inconsistant temps throughout the pot. Stir a little to mix up the water and keep the temp more consistant through and through.

[c0nsumer]

Originally posted by Magnew
When I do a partial mash sparge I put the grain bag in a colander that sits on top of the brew pot. I pour the sparge water over the grains so that the colander fills to above the level of the grains and let it just drain out into the brew pot. It's easy.

Also, I have found with partial mash that I get inconsistant temps throughout the pot. Stir a little to mix up the water and keep the temp more consistant through and through.

Mind if I ask how much water you use for the sparge? Should I use the other ~2 gallons that I was planning on boiling? I could always bring this water up to temp in the pot, move it to something else (not sure what yet...) then pour it over the grain bag?

-Steve

[chriscolby]

Originally posted by Fly Creek
My $.02:

1. You might want to sparge your grains with some 170-ish degree water to get more of the fermentable goodies into the wort.

2. I pour directly from the brew pot to fermenter using a sanitized funnel with a screen insert for filtering (however, this does not really work to keep the hot/cold break out of the fermenter). Be sure to have some cold water in the fermenter before pouring the hot wort in.

3. Remove the "?" from the last step and replace with "!"

FWIW,
J

For what it's worth, I disagree with the first two points -- especially the second one.

Rinsing steeped grains with hot water can extract tannins. Obviously, in a full mash the grains get rinsed (sparged), but it's easy to overdo it with steeped grains. If you do rinse your grains, go easy on the amount of water you use. Better yet, sacrifice the tiny amount of "stuff" you would rinse out for better tasting homebrew. Just let the bag drip dry.

As for the second, it is never good to pour hot wort through a strainer. I know this is how all the old books say to do it -- and I did this for years -- but using this technique is a surefire way to end up with a very red, and likely prematurely stale, homebrew.

Pouring hot wort through a strainer darkens it because it gets oxidized. (You can actually see the wort get darker when you do this. Just watch.) Always cool wort to near fermentation temperature before moving it.

I agree with the third point.


Chris Colby
Bastrop, TX

[c0nsumer]

Originally posted by chriscolby
For what it's worth, I disagree with the first two points -- especially the second one.

Rinsing steeped grains with hot water can extract tannins. Obviously, in a full mash the grains get rinsed (sparged), but it's easy to overdo it with steeped grains. If you do rinse your grains, go easy on the amount of water you use. Better yet, sacrifice the tiny amount of "stuff" you would rinse out for better tasting homebrew. Just let the bag drip dry.

As for the second, it is never good to pour hot wort through a strainer. I know this is how all the old books say to do it -- and I did this for years -- but using this technique is a surefire way to end up with a very red, and likely prematurely stale, homebrew.

Pouring hot wort through a strainer darkens it because it gets oxidized. (You can actually see the wort get darker when you do this. Just watch.) Always cool wort to near fermentation temperature before moving it.

I agree with the third point.


Chris Colby
Bastrop, TX

Hmm, okay... Erring on the side of caution then, and out of a desire to make something that I really enjoy, I think I will just do the steep, drain, and leave it at that... I'd rather have something a wee bit less flavorful as opposed to potentially off.

I'm really looking forward to making this batch... I'm just waiting for the local shop to get 6.5 gallon carboys back in stock. (Should be tomorrow.)

Thanks very much for the pointer... I'll be sure to document all the steps fully and post them in this discussion, to hopefully be of use to others.

Now, back to my Bell's Winter White Ale. I absolutely love this stuff.

-Steve

[fuji6100]

Hey man, Just wanted to welcome you aboard. I post under the same name here as I do in LJ, so I'm easy to recognize.

[c0nsumer]

Originally posted by fuji6100
Hey man, Just wanted to welcome you aboard. I post under the same name here as I do in LJ, so I'm easy to recognize.

Oh, neat. :) Hey there... Thanks for pointing me here a bit earlier. Thanks to the posts and people here along with articles at byo.com (and a few other places that Google pointed me to) I've managed to get together the whole process that I plan on using tomorrow (or Wednesday or this weekend, whenever I've got time). If you're interested in seeing it, it's right here (http://www.nuxx.net/files/beer2_notes.txt).

Now I'm off to bed!

Thanks again...

-Steve

[Magnew]

Mind if I ask how much water you use for the sparge? Should I use the other ~2 gallons that I was planning on boiling? I could always bring this water up to temp in the pot, move it to something else (not sure what yet...) then pour it over the grain bag?

I use enough water to bring the volume up to the amount I am boiling. For instance, if I am mashing with 1.5 gallons and want to boil 2.5 then I would sparge with 1 gallon (or 1.5 gallons to make up for evaporation during the mash). I have two brew pots, so I heat the sparge water in one of them.

I think I disagree with chriscolby about sparging in this instance. You will be doing a partial mash with your grains. You are not just steeping specialty grains. Every partial mash proceedure I have read says to sparge the grains after the mash. I always sparge after a partial mash with no ill effects. In fact the partial mash beers I have made have been better/fresher tasting than the all extract beers.

As for the strainer...That's up to you. You need to get oxygen into your wort, so it needs to be agitated. Straining isn't absolutely necessary, though. I strain now to get rid of gunk, but I didn't when I started and my beers were just fine. They are still just fine now that I strain and I have no problem getting light color beers.

[chriscolby]

Originally posted by Magnew
I think I disagree with chriscolby about sparging in this instance. You will be doing a partial mash with your grains. You are not just steeping specialty grains. Every partial mash proceedure I have read says to sparge the grains after the mash. I always sparge after a partial mash with no ill effects. In fact the partial mash beers I have made have been better/fresher tasting than the all extract beers.

Rinsing the grains in a partial mash will get you a bit more extract. And, if you limit the amount of rinse water, you will have no ill effects. I tend to err on the side caution when rinsing specialty grains or a p-mash for a couple reasons.

1.) It's easy to overdo it and extract tannins. In a full mash, the grain bed is submerged while you are sparging. When rinsing a p-mash, the grains are usually held in a bag or strainer above the brew pot. They are "naked" and you are pouring hot water over them. I think -- and I could be wrong -- there's a bigger potential for tannin extraction because of this. My homebrew club hosted a contest last year and virtually every extract beer we tasted had a pronouced astringency.

2.) The amount of "extra" fermentables you get is -- I think -- less than what you get from sparging a full mash. When rinsing a bag of grains, I think a lot of water just flows through channels in the loosely packed grain bed.

When p-mashing, I skip the rinse water (or go very light with it) because I view it as a high risk/low payoff technique. Your mileage may vary.

Originally posted by Magnew
As for the strainer...That's up to you. You need to get oxygen into your wort, so it needs to be agitated. Straining isn't absolutely necessary, though. I strain now to get rid of gunk, but I didn't when I started and my beers were just fine. They are still just fine now that I strain and I have no problem getting light color beers.

Do you strain the wort when it's hot? That's the problem, not straining itself -- which is fine (good for aeration, even) with cooled wort. I turned too many batches of wort from a nice golden color in the kettle to red in the fermenter to ever recommend hot straining to anyone.


Chris Colby
Bastrop, TX

[Magnew]

I do indeed strain after the wort has been chilled. I get your point now.

When I sparge in the colander, the grain bag plugs enough of the holes that the grains are actually submerged in the rinse water for a bit. It's a slow drain. Agreed, probably not as effective as the sparging process for all-grain, but I do it none the less with no ill effects.

[chriscolby]

Originally posted by Magnew
I do indeed strain after the wort has been chilled. I get your point now.

Yep, it's only hot wort that's the problem. Straining cold wort gets some air into the fairly effectively and can be a good thing.

Originally posted by Magnew
When I sparge in the colander, the grain bag plugs enough of the holes that the grains are actually submerged in the rinse water for a bit. It's a slow drain. Agreed, probably not as effective as the sparging process for all-grain, but I do it none the less with no ill effects.

Wow, cool. That probably works a lot better than the way I do it. When I do a p-mash beer, I hold the grain bag over the brewpot with a big strainer (after the mash). The rinse water pretty much seems to just flow right through (and partially around) the soggy grains. With the right kind of colander, though, I can see how you could get a fairly effective sparge.


Chris Colby
Bastrop, TX

[c0nsumer]

Thanks to everyone and their suggestions previously in this post. I brewed up the beer tonight, my first mini-mash and my second beer. Thus far it seems great, and end up nice and strong with an OG of 1.071.

So, we'll see what happens!

If anyone is interested in seeing them, I've got some pictures of this brew here (http://www.nuxx.net/gallery/californiastylepalekit).

Thanks again. :) Now I just need to wait a bit, rack it, wait some more, and keg it!

-Steve