Use Of Corn Or Rice In Beer?

[BAH]

How can you tell if Corn or Rice is being used in a beer's brewing? Could someone describe the taste of both?

Thanks

BAH

ps. I have heard Budweiser uses Rice and Coors uses Corn.

[hopjack13]

coors and bud use rice, miller cereal grains ,corona uses corn. and that's just the begining. adjuncts they're called. and they have no business in beer! stay away from them they'll do you wrong! stick with real ale! ON WITH THE CRUSADE!

[Richard English]

Adjuncts such as rice are used by the likes of A-B for one reason and one reason only. They are very cheap. Barley malt is an expensive product - the grain itself has to be of the best quality; the process of malting needs both fuel and labour - both expensive.

Rice is a very cheap cereal which ferments readily to produce alcohol. It does not, though, produce flavour (or at least not any flavour that most afficionadoes would want to taste).

I have heard that A-B use about 40% rice in their wort and that's a huge saving. A-B Budweiser is now the most popular bottled beer in England and one of the most expensive! This is due entirely to the very clever marketing of A-B - the one thing they probably do better than any other brewer.

Tomorrow evening I shall be drinking Fuller's in the Victoria in Paddington; there will be, I know, empty-headed individuals who have been seduced by A-B marketing and who will be drinking "Bud" from the bottle (a horrible habit - what's the matter with using a glass?) when, for less money, they could be drinking Fuller's 1845 or one of Fuller's excellent draught beers.

Sadly there is little I can say or do since, even in law-adiding England, outspoken criticism of a person's stupidity can lead to such retaliatory measure as a punch in the mouth!

[Redbird Fan]

who will be drinking "Bud" from the bottle (a horrible habit - what's the matter with using a glass?)

Well, there is at least ONE reason drinking from the bottle vs. glass could be preferred........ drinking from the bottle significantly reduces the opportunity to contract hepatitis. :D

[brewmonkey]

WOW!

Adjuncts certainly have a place in brewing and I use them in the pub in several of my beers.

I always have a premium American style lager on tap that uses 30% rice in the grist.

My ESB uses 5% corn (very traditional) and my Cream Ale also uses 10% corn.

While the big guys may be able to get it cheaply, it is expensive at our level. I pay more for the adjuncts then I do for floor malts.

The taste of them varies but corn is very "slicky sweet" and rice is almost a toasty follow through when I use them. But that is what I am shooting for.

You ask why would I brew using these (believe it or not alot of the pro brewers do use them)? I have a section of the market that just is not ready for or willing to try some of the fuller bodied beers or they don't like hops etc... But I have seen a group of people come into the pub and order a round. There is usually someone who wants a "lighter" beer and if they cannot find it the whole group leaves as the "ale" drinkers can find something they will drink elsewhere and their buddy can get a bud or miller.

Seeing this I developed an American Light Lager (#1 seller in the pub) for that segment of the crowd. I have won over a ot of drinkers and now we start on culturing them, "hey you tried a craft beer would you like to try something with a touch more body and hops?" Then they move onto bigger/bolder beers. It works, it is a tool to win people over to the craft side.

If adjuncts have no place in beer then say good bye to the CAP and Pre-prohibition styles. Say good bye for anything that calls for unmalted wheat (alot of Belgian beers use unmalted wheat), rye, oats, soy etc. They would all be considered adjuncts.

I am not saying I like Bud or any of the other macros but as a brewer I am rather envious of them. Every time you drink one of their products it will taste identical to the last time you may have had one, even if it was ten years ago. They have achieved product consistancy far beyond what I could hop for and that is what we as brewers should all be shooting for, the same beer as last time.

But interesting enough, I am seeing the macros trying to compete into the craft beer markets by introducing products that are typically found in the craft segment. It lends credence to what we do. It says to the normal bud drinker, hey if AB is making stout whats wrong with me going and trying it at the local pub or grabbing a 6pack of the local reginal breweries beer.

Beer itself is interesting as it is one of the few markets that has very strict brand allegiance and it is tough to get people who usually drink one product to switch to another. It is an uphill fight and that fight starts with you as homebrewers. Invite your friends over for the next brew, tell them to bring a buddy. Homebrewers are the missionaries of craft beer. We depend on you to help us grow the market.

Sheesh....sorry for the rant but I find adjuncts a very useful product and will continue to use them.

brewmonkey

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Richard English


Tomorrow evening I shall be drinking Fuller's in the Victoria in Paddington; there will be, I know, empty-headed individuals who have been seduced by A-B marketing and who will be drinking "Bud" from the bottle (a horrible habit - what's the matter with using a glass?) when, for less money, they could be drinking Fuller's 1845 or one of Fuller's excellent draught beers.



Fullers uses corn in their ESB.

[Richard English]

Quote "...drinking from the bottle significantly reduces the opportunity to contract hepatitis..."

I'd like to see the evidence for this "significant" reduction. Hepatitis is, as I understand it, transmitted through blood or sexual contact contact, nor orally. If saliva is truly a major infective agent then that puts paid to another or my hobbies - kissing!

Frankly I'd prefer to take my chance with a glass that has been washed in hot water and cleansing solution than a bottle whose exterior has been subject to all sorts of quite uncontrolled contamination while in storage and being handled. When, for example, was the last time you saw a bar's crown cap remover being sterilised? Any contaminants will be deposited on the outside of the bottle - and the outside is the part that touches your lips.

And of course, you can, if you wish, do as so many serious drinkers do - take in your own tankard.

[Richard English]

Quote, "...Fullers uses corn in their ESB..."

I can't argue as I don't have a bottle here to check. I am indeed surprised if this is the case, though (remembering that "corn" is not the same as "corn sugar"). They don't in their 1945, though.

Remember, too, that the word "corn" has different meanings in the US and the UK.

[Richard English]

Quote "...Every time you drink one of their products it will taste identical to the last time you may have had one, even if it was ten years ago..."

A bit like the water in my tap (faucet) in fact (though that arguably has more flavour)

[brewmonkey]

Depends on the pub you are in. I have been to some that use the 3 sink method where you can sit for several hours and not see the bartender ever change the water. I am all over our bartenders about the changing of the water and the addition and amount of chemicals that must go into the sinks. They are quite good about it. They have learned to take pride in the products they send across the bar.

Some places will not allow outside mugs into the pub and in other places (yes the US has some odd laws) it is against the law.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...Every time you drink one of their products it will taste identical to the last time you may have had one, even if it was ten years ago..."

A bit like the water in my tap (faucet) in fact (though that arguably has more flavour)

It does not matter if it tastes like water it is the product consistancy they achieve. Like I said, I would kill to hit that every time I brew my Amber.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote, "...Fullers uses corn in their ESB..."

I can't argue as I don't have a bottle here to check. I am indeed surprised if this is the case, though (remembering that "corn" is not the same as "corn sugar"). They don't in their 1945, though.

Remember, too, that the word "corn" has different meanings in the US and the UK.

That would be their 1845, and I was not aware that corn is different there.

Enlighten us.

[Redbird Fan]

Hepatitis is, as I understand it, transmitted through blood or sexual contact contact, nor orally.

I believe you may be thinking of Hepatitis C -

Hepatitis A is much more common (than Hepatitis C) here in the U.S. and the level of care given to "changing the water and keeping it at temperature" in most bars during busy times is very low.

My statement wasn't intended to imply that a person has a high risk of contracting Hepatitis from drinking via the poorly washed glass, it's more of a note of increased opportunity -

Hepatitis Information Network (http://www.hepnet.com/hepa/hepafact2000.html)

Aside from that trivial note (which was actually intended to be a joke for a reason to drink A-B from a bottle vs. a great beer from a glass) - a poorly washed glass makes any brew taste bad.

[Richard English]

In the UK the term "corn" can be used to mean any cereal; in the US it means maize. Thus barley could be regarded as a type of corn in casual UK parlance.

In fact, I have no real quarrel with the use of cereals such as wheat in beer; it's rice that has no business there.

[Tweek]

Jesus. Come off it people. Their is nothing wrong with the use of adjuncts. And yes, without a doubt Fullers uses corn in their ESB.

Many of your so called "real ales" use adjuncts of one kind or another. Any brewer worth their salt will agree on this.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Richard English
In the UK the term "corn" can be used to mean any cereal; in the US it means maize. Thus barley could be regarded as a type of corn in casual UK parlance.

In fact, I have no real quarrel with the use of cereals such as wheat in beer; it's rice that has no business there.


Rice is a cereal grain and in the US it has it's place in beer.

As for the use of the word Corn, for know I will have to believe what you say as I am not in the UK and cannot dispute.

[Theakston]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Fullers uses corn in their ESB.

I agree with Richard. It is not likely that Fullers uses corn (or what is known as corn in the USA) in any of their products it is not generally grown in the UK (as it doesn't have the climate) and it is not a traditional ingredient in British ales. Many brewers in the UK have historically used sugars from the former colonies in the caribbean and other adjuncts such as oats, wheat etc. are used. Few brews conform to the Bavarian Purity idea of only malt yeast hops and water.

In the UK the word "corn" is used to refer to what is known in the states as maize. The corn in the USA is generally refered to as sweet corn.

[Redbird Fan]

Ah, nothing like lively discussion to divert my attention! Good posts brewers!

....oh yeah, what's that mantra...... "Relax, have a homebrew."

Ok, I will!

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Theakston
I agree with Richard. It is not likely that Fullers uses corn (or what is known as corn in the USA) in any of their products it is not generally grown in the UK (as it doesn't have the climate) and it is not a traditional ingredient in British ales. Many brewers in the UK have historically used sugars from the former colonies in the caribbean and other adjuncts such as oats, wheat etc. are used. Few brews conform to the Bavarian Purity idea of only malt yeast hops and water.

In the UK the word "corn" is used to refer to what is known in the states as maize. The corn in the USA is generally refered to as sweet corn.

The UK has imported corn since the American colonial period, It is a household item.

[Redbird Fan]

Hey, I know! How about using Candy Corn as an adjunct?! :p

[Theakston]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
The UK has imported corn since the American colonial period, It is a household item.

A household item maybe (although it's very hard to get a hold of anything like cornmeal in the UK so it's not as common as you appear to think. and it is not a traditional ingredient in ale.

[Redbird Fan]

what about Candy Corn?? It might be common in households.

http://www.germanheritage.com/biographies/atol/goelitz.html

[Richard English]

Quote "...Rice is a cereal grain and in the US it has it's place in beer...."

Rice is, indeed, a cereal. And its place in US beer is assured just so long as it remains cheap since A-B just love the stuff.

Sadly, it is the use of cheap components like rice that has given some American beers their (deserved) reputation for unmitigated and single-minded foulness!

This is the real beer board; let we who use it eschew the chemically adulterated and cheaply produced concoctions of the likes of A-B and drink the wonderful beers that are still made by those brewers who put quality ahead of profit.

[Richard English]

Quote "...what about Candy Corn??..."

Forgive my Old World ignorance - what is candy corn? Is it what we call popcorn?

[fuji6100]

Forgive my Old World ignorance - what is candy corn? Is it what we call popcorn?

It's this little cone shaped (supposed to look like a whole corn kernal) waxy-sugary confection that usually comes colored yellow, orange, and white.

You can usually find lots of the stuff around halloween, as it's kind of become a tradition.

[Redbird Fan]

- what is candy corn?

Candy corn info: (http://www.newyorkmetro.com/urban/articles/02/halloween/candycorn.htm)

....cheap beer for profit it good to have around for many reasons:

[list=1]
It keeps people with lessor tastebuds from wasting your good stuff.
It gets you through when your economic situation is, well not so good.
You're much more likely to recieve free brew from friends when it's an A-B kind of night.
It helps you appreciate the really good stuff!
It's inexpensive, this means more funds for Candy Corn. (and trips to brew tours! and brewing activities)
[/list=1]

[Richard English]

Thank you.

I've never seen it here although I imagine it's available. Of course, Halloween is not a very important festival in England - although there is, sadly, an increasing adoption of the "trick or treat" game amongst the younger set.

[Richard English]

I could accept what you say except that here, in England, Bud is an expensive beer. It is sold and priced as a premium product even though it is the same cheap rubbish that is brewed in the US (Here it's brewed in Mortlake, London)

I ask those of you who have had the pleasure of sampling Fuller's 1845 - would you drink Budweiser if it cost more than 1845? As it is, you probably pay three or four times the price of Budweiser just to have the pleasure of drinking 1845!

That's what I mean by A-B's clever marketing; they have managed to convince millions of (presumably) intelligent British drinkers that it's worth paying a premium to drink their rubbish. They are a VERY clever company when it comes to marketing. They just happen to brew lousy beer.

[Redbird Fan]

except that here, in England, Bud is an expensive beer

What would be an equivilant brew there? Not necessarily in the quality of Bud, but in price and everyday drinkability?

Here, you can purchase Bud for $4.50 - 4.99 (US) per 6 pack.

[Richard English]

It's difficult to give an exact comparison since our sizes differ from yours. However, a half litre bottle of 1845 costs about £1.80 in a store.

Half a litre is almost exactly a US pint. £1.80 is $2.95.

US Budweiser will usually cost a little more than that in a store.

Pub prices will usually be a little higher, of course.

So far as an equivalent brew is concerned, I would normally drink a pint of best bitter. An Imperial Pint (about 10% larger than a US pint) would cost from about £2.00 ($3.28) Most English bitters are between 3.4% and 4.8% abv.

Bud is supposed to be 5% but I have to say that, on the occasions when I have been stuck somewhere like an airport in the States and have no choice, I have drunk it as though it were water with no intoxicative effect. Maybe that's because I can't drink it fast enough at the ice-cold temperatures at which it's served.

[Theakston]

Most brewers in the USA -- certainly the larger ones -- use the double-mash infusion system. This system prepares two separate mashes. It utilizes a cereal cooker for boiling adjuncts and a mash tun for well-modified, highly diastatic malts.

This is the only method via which corn or rice can be used in large quantities. In Britain the method used for ales is infusion In Germany it is decoction. Neither of these methods are effective in extracting fermentable sugars from corn or rice.

That is why I find it extremely doubtful if Fullers uses corn. Some brewers use flaked maize - a corn derivative to lighten the body or mouthfeel, and many home brewers use corn sugar for cleaner bottle conditioning (as it hardly throws a residue).

We could always email Fullers?

[brewmonkey]

I never said AB's products or any of the other macro brews were good beer. What I have said is they achieve a consistant product that we pub/regional brewers would love to have.

I work in a pub that keeps 12 beers on tap. I have made space for one beer to be a light american lager, not because I am seeking profit (I don't own the place) but there is a need for it in this market. I do not have the luxury of a city like Portland, OR or Seattle where the average beer drinker would snub his nose at a macro.

No, I live in a small town that has more farms then you can shake a stick at where the guys drink natty light or busch and those like it. It has been an uphill fight to get them in the pub and drink a craft beer. By brewing an adjunct beer I have slowly but surely taken over some of the market place that used to belong to AB et al. After getting Billy Bob and Elly Sue to try a craft brewed adjunct beer it is easy to step them to the next level. But you have to get them in the door.

Since you do not have your lively hood depending on beer you go on right ahead and make what ever you feel like. Me? I will keep making adjunct (and damned good ones) beers for those who wish to drink it. My other 11 taps will remain as I see fit.

As for Richard English, as I stated before, Rice is not as cheap as you think. For a brewer wihsing to use it (Flaked rice and/or corn) you will find it to be more expensive then you think. It costs more then my Hugh Baird selections by a good $.10 a pound.


This is the real beer board; let we who use it eschew the chemically adulterated and cheaply produced concoctions of the likes of A-B and drink the wonderful beers that are still made by those brewers who put quality ahead of profit.

Quality is always my number one priority. I certainly don't appreciate your insinuation that I would dare compromise my products for the sake of profit. I get paid exactly the same no metter how much of the beer I sell. I simply have a need for an adjunct beer in my market and will continue to brew one.

I attend many confrences and talk with my fellow brewers on a daily basis I think you will be shocked to find out that a good deal of craft brewers use rice and corn in their products.

Sadly you sound like a beer snob and might never know of the wonderfull beers that are being produced using adjuncts.

Cheers!

[Richard English]

Those who know me through my postings will know that I reserve my insults for the chemical fizz brewers and those insults are direct. I do not insinuate and would not for one moment suggest that your own products are anything but excellent. If you look at what I wrote, you will see that I did say "the likes of A-B" and I did not try to tar you with that brush.

I am sorry if I upset you but this was not my intention.

I cannot comment on the different costs in the US but in the UK malting barley is more expensive than rice.

Finally, I am not a beer snob, I am a beer enthusiast. If you look at my postings I have never anywhere said that all adjuncts are bad. I said that rice is, and I stick by that. I have also said that many of the chemicals that are added by the major brewers to give fizz and sparkle to their products are bad, and I stick to that as well.

In around half a century of boozing I have tried many different beers and beer styles. Although I find that beers made simply from "Reinheitsgebot" ingredients usually do me very well, there are many others that I enjoy. However, I have never yet tried one from the rice-using A-B and its clones that I have found anything other than disgusting.

[fretlessman71]

Hey Brewmonkey... maybe a better avatar pic would be of you holding a gun to a bottle of Bud..... :-)

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Hey Brewmonkey... maybe a better avatar pic would be of you holding a gun to a bottle of Bud..... :-)

Yea, but the only problem is I don't have any Bud around here (not allowed in my house) and liquor stores look at me funny whenever I bring a gun in with me.....:D

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Richard English
Those who know me through my postings will know that I reserve my insults for the chemical fizz brewers and those insults are direct. I do not insinuate and would not for one moment suggest that your own products are anything but excellent. If you look at what I wrote, you will see that I did say "the likes of A-B" and I did not try to tar you with that brush.

I am sorry if I upset you but this was not my intention.

I cannot comment on the different costs in the US but in the UK malting barley is more expensive than rice.

Finally, I am not a beer snob, I am a beer enthusiast. If you look at my postings I have never anywhere said that all adjuncts are bad. I said that rice is, and I stick by that. I have also said that many of the chemicals that are added by the major brewers to give fizz and sparkle to their products are bad, and I stick to that as well.

In around half a century of boozing I have tried many different beers and beer styles. Although I find that beers made simply from "Reinheitsgebot" ingredients usually do me very well, there are many others that I enjoy. However, I have never yet tried one from the rice-using A-B and its clones that I have found anything other than disgusting.

Well then I guess I owe you an apology (and a beer should we get the chance to meer). I did take offense as I thought you were directing your comments at me as well. I generally have a very thick skin (11 years as an Army Grunt) but you struck a nerve.

However, I do think this has made for a lively discussion and would like to see the debate continue.

For those interested in where I heard Fullers and other UK brewers were using Corn in the grain bill, it was during a conversation I was having with Reg Drury and several other brewers during a conference.

[Richard English]

No offence taken or meant. And I'll take you up on that pint when I'm next in the States!

One thing that the Internet has shown me is how easy it is to communicate but also how easy it is to be misunderstood. As Oscar Wilde said, "...we have everything in common with the Americans - except language, of course..."

And when it comes to humour - well, we don't even spell the word the same...!

[fretlessman71]

I think it was George Bernard Shaw who described America and Britain as "two countries divided by a common language". I always thought it was perfectly appropriate.

Brewmonkey, if I find a Bud bottle lying in the street I'll send it to you. It would indeed make a wonderful pic... :-)

And finally, a toast to all those who judge their beer with their olfactory senses as well as their noggin... Prosit! (Or, as Lt. Col. Henry Blake would have said, "Here's looking up your old address!")

[Theakston]

Ingredients don't make beer, people do.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
I think it was George Bernard Shaw who described America and Britain as "two countries divided by a common language". I always thought it was perfectly appropriate.

Brewmonkey, if I find a Bud bottle lying in the street I'll send it to you. It would indeed make a wonderful pic... :-)

And finally, a toast to all those who judge their beer with their olfactory senses as well as their noggin... Prosit! (Or, as Lt. Col. Henry Blake would have said, "Here's looking up your old address!")


I should break out the book of armaments then....:D

[fretlessman71]

You mean you have a HOLY HANDGRENADE?!?!?!?!? :eek: I'll send you a CASE of Bud for a pic of THAT.....

[steveh]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Hey Brewmonkey... maybe a better avatar pic would be of you holding a gun to a bottle of Bud..... :-)

Maybe a better pic would be one of exercising the first rule of firearm safety - don't point your weapon at anything you don't want to shoot. Second rule - don't put your finger on the trigger until you have a clear target. Sure glad you missed the memory card in your camera.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
For those interested in where I heard Fullers and other UK brewers were using Corn in the grain bill, it was during a conversation I was having with Reg Drury and several other brewers during a conference.

There's quite a bit of difference in the flaked maize commonly used in some English beers, even some Swiss beers, and the corn grits used by the likes of Miller Brewing. There's also quite a bit of difference in the quantities used - Miller using corn grits as the bulk of their grain bill yielding lighter body and flavor.

Any good brewer (home, micro, or macro) worth their mettle is using barley malt as the majority of their fermentable grain - unless, of course, they're making a Bavarian style wheat beer - then it's 60/40, wheat to barley. Yes, it's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it!

S.

[brewmonkey]

Fuck it, he is entitled to his opinions.

Whatever dude.

[hopjack13]

well im with richard on this one, if you look in my fridge you wont find a beer with more then four ingredients, with the exception of wheat or oatmeal but thats not often.
brewmonkey, this is a beer forum not guns n ammo.
it's a nice gun, a glock 19 from the looks. but why do you feel compelled to stick it in everyone on this sites face?
also i dig your intentions trying to convert people to better beer.
but my personal preference is to leave the adjuncts out , better then waking up with a headache

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by hopjack13
well im with richard on this one, if you look in my fridge you wont find a beer with more then four ingredients, with the exception of wheat or oatmeal but thats not often.
brewmonkey, this is a beer forum not guns n ammo.
it's a nice gun, a glock 19 from the looks. but why do you feel compelled to stick it in everyone on this sites face?
also i dig your intentions trying to convert people to better beer.
but my personal preference is to leave the adjuncts out , better then waking up with a headache

I am not the one who brought up the weapon, and it is a Glock 23 (.40SW), I just responded to someone elses post.

As far as sticking it in your face, it's just a picture.

[hopjack13]

well it's a small pic , the 23's are nice , thirteen in the clip? my favorate #
and yes it is a picture, of you sticking a gun in my face, why the gun?

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by hopjack13
well it's a small pic , the 23's are nice , thirteen in the clip? my favorate #
and yes it is a picture, of you sticking a gun in my face, why the gun?

Well sorry you feel if it is in your face, but that is not the point of the pic. It is a picture I use for my avatar on several military related boards where I generally hang out. Alot of the guys I was in the Army with are on there and it is nice to keep in touch with the people who you spent that much time around.

Have to say good eye for detail on a pic that small it is not easy to really see what style, less model that weapon is (Not a fan of 9mm or .45). No it is only a ten round mag on this model as it is a post ban weapon. No more Hi-cap mags allowed.... My model 22 has the 15 round mags as I bought it before the ban went into effect.

I actually had to run the pic through a image sizer as they only allow 70pixels on this board. My guess would be to cut down on the load of the server....

Any way back to our regular scheduled programming, beer.

[Tweek]

Too all the homebrewers on this thread.

If you keep the "holier than though" attitude about adjunts you will undoubtedly miss out on some very good beers. I know some of you from your postings in the homebrew section and I think it odd that you would have such a vehement stance on this issue, especially with how new some of you are to homebrewing.

To my good buddy Richard. It is my opinion that adding a bit of adjuncts to beer makes it no less a real ale then adding fruit to wine. (which in many peoples opinion is not wine).

Oh and btw I will be brewing that batch for the natural vs. forced carbonation comparison within the next few days.

I guess what I am saying is that everyone needs to come down to earth about what could make a good beer. Limiting yourself to a specific way of thinking is going to doom you to mediocrity. Branch out and try things, that is how greatness happens.

Cheers.

Tweek

[Theakston]

It's not so much adjuncts are evil but which adjuncts and how much of them are useful before they have crossed the line.

American mass production brewers use as much as 50% adjuncts. So many in fact that they have to develop a whole seperate mashing process to accomodate them. Plus these adjuncts are usually corn and rice which add little flavour to the beer.

I'd say when in gets to that level then it has crossed the line. If I were going to use that amount of rice I'd be going for Sake.

The type of adjuncts are important. Rice and Corn were originally added as a cheap substitute. They may be useful to stabilize, to reduce haze, or to lighten the body, but you would not add them in these quantities if that was your goal.

This is from an article on adjuncts on the main site which may be of interest to the brewers:

Wheat malt - Wheat beers may be up to 65% wheat (few go higher because barley malt is easier for brewers to work with). Contributes to the refreshing nature and spiciness (thought yeast is also a factor) of traditional German weizen beers. Makes the head of all beers creamier.

Unmalted wheat - Often used in Belgian witbiers, more intensely wheat flavored than malted wheat.

Oats - Used most often in British stouts and Belgian witbiers. Adds creaminess and smoothness, sometimes a touch of toastiness. Both malted and unmalted oats may be used.

Rye - Even more so than wheat in wheat beers, most of the grain in a rye beer will be barley malt. Rye adds a crispness and dryness to any beer; and in larger quantities a grainy quality and subtle spiciness.

Corn - Adds alcohol to beer while contributing little flavor or body. It's popular with American and Canadian lager brewers because it is cheap.

(An aside: DMS, or Dimethyl sulfide, is a flavor that belongs in few styles of beer. It tastes and smells like cooked corn. It does not result from using corn as an ingredient -- but it is a result of problems with traditional ingredients or poor brewing practices.)

Rice - Like corn, adds alcohol and little else. More expensive than corn, but produces crisper, lighter tasting beer.

Honey - Has been used as an ingredient in beer since Sumerian times. Adds both (honey) flavor and aroma to a beer, and sometimes sweetness.

Belgian candi sugar - Adds a smooth taste. Boosts the gravity (and therefore the alcohol content) of a beer without that being apparent. Available in different colors, influencing the appearance of a beer. Darker candi sugar may add a rummy character to stronger Belgian styles.

Brown sugar - Popular with British brewers, adding a rich, sweet flavor. Found most often in strong ales, old ales and some holiday beers.

Maple syrup - Used judiciously, adds a dry, woodsy, smoky flavor. In larger amounts can be strongly sweet.

Lactose - A sugar extracted from milk. Sometimes used in brewing stout, adding smoothness and sweetness.

[paul84043]

I was a bit overcritical initially of the lack of quality of the mega's when I first started brewing my own beer and discovered flavor...
But I have since continued to expand my horizons and have discovered that there are other breweries that use adjuncts and thier beer is freaking fantastic!

I think the real issue is the lack of quality that the megas pour into thier beers...I have actually began to wonder recently just exactly how do they make thier beer taste so bad?

I don't mind corn, or rice solids, or fruit, or whatever in my beer. I think it's great that certain styles and regions will stick to the purity law and make truly traditional, pure beer, that's totally cool, but I definitely don't want every beer I drink to be made like that! The diversity is mindboggling and refreshingly fantastic!!

I like a "real" ale just as much as I like my fruit wheat.

It's all good...


Brewmonkey,
I post on several gun and firearms forums and every third person has an avatar just like yours. I personally find the perspective interesting and I think that someone that's going to be offended by your avatar and think that you are doing it intentionally just to make them feel insecure needs some help....it's just a picture.
Have another beer man...but leave the gun in the safe!

[fretlessman71]

So, Tweek, what you're saying is to judge a beer with your tastebuds and your palate, and NOT your personal idea of what can and can't be considered a "real" ale? Makes sense to me. Otherwise, where would we get our Young's Double Chocolate Stout? :-)

Does chocolate count as an "adjunct"?

[brewmonkey]

but leave the gun in the safe!

All my weapons remain in a double lock double door safe with ammo in a fireproof safe seperate from all others.

I have wee ones (almost 10 and a 5 month old) I could not imagine my world without them. Gun safety is an issue taken very seriously here. So much so that my oldest is a member of the local gun club/range (has his own ruger 10/22) and understands quite well what weapons are about and the damage they will do.

Crap, when my boys get older they should have a very clear understanding of guns and alcohol and that they are both fun to use (in moderation) and both have devastating results when used incorrectly.

About adjuncts-

I stand on my origianl posts. I think they have a great place in brewing and I will continue to make beers with them. I do believe that my Cream Ale and my Light beer are two of the best beers I produce and if the reaction from my customers is used to measure the beers quality I would say that they are damned good. They are hard to keep on tap as they fly across the bar whenever they are.

Brewing is about being open minded and accepting new things. I personally do not care for the macros, but as I said, they have a level of product consistancy that is unbeaten by the craft markets.

[hopjack13]

I think that someone that's going to be offended by your avatar and think that you are doing it intentionally just to make them feel insecure needs some help....it's just a picture.

paul , you assume too much, i never said the gun offended me or made me feel insecure, only that this is a beer site not a gun site.
i actually was admiring the weapon .i never said it was right or wrong, i was only trying to understand the advatar and why he posted it like that. he uses it on other sites, okay thats good, now i understand .
as far as adjuncts...well im still sticking with reinheitsgebot.
but im not a brewer either , if i ever did start brewing maybe i too would find a use for adjuncts, but im not and i don't.

[steveh]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
I do believe that my Cream Ale and my Light beer are two of the best beers I produce and if the reaction from my customers is used to measure the beers quality I would say that they are damned good. They are hard to keep on tap as they fly across the bar whenever they are.

You have mentioned before that you brew for a pub, correct? (Queue the free advertising/spam filter) Where are you and the pub anyway?

S.

[Tweek]

So, Tweek, what you're saying is to judge a beer with your tastebuds and your palate, and NOT your personal idea of what can and can't be considered a "real" ale?

exactly.

Hey theakston, I got an old horse drawn wagon that I would be glad to trade you for your car. Everything can be improved. EVERYTHING.

I think many of you are so annoyed with Budwieser and Coors and the many like them that you cant see past your disgust. Change is good. Inventing new ways to brew, for better or worse is good. Just because its new doesnt mean you have to adopt it or even even patronize it. But we need people to keep thinking, keep trying new things that is how everything, including beer gets improved on.

Heres a hypothetical

your over at a buddys place. He hands you a beer. You pour it into your glass and it is beautiful. Rich amber hue, decent clarity, great nose. You taste it. Its the best beer you have ever had. You ask him what it is. He tells you he made it by steam cooking capt crunch and then adding the mixture to a roiling boil of wort that made from a few specialty grains. And hopped as usual. He tells you this mixture is 80 percent Capt crunch.
You are a bit perplexed but you trust this guy so you know he is not lying to you. Also it definately tastes like beer, there is not hint of anything else, not wine, not liqour, not cider. Its beer.

What now? Do you deny yourself more cause it is made from capt. crunch? or do you commend your friend on his ingenuity and thoughtfulness and drink another.

Ill tell you if it was me. I would get the recipe and it would be a new constant in my house.

Cheers

[hopjack13]

well if the beer was great then the beer was great and i would definitely commend him on his accomplishment. however if i woke up the next morning with a headache from the captain crunch he used so much of, i probably wouldn't ask him for anymore, let alone the recipe.

[Tweek]

ok man. Whatever you like. My point was that it was good all around. It was to get you to open your mind. Obviously it didnt work.

O well.

[hopjack13]

well you could bash me over the head with something, that usually works for my wife:p good beer is good beer , but it's relative, beautie is in the eye of the beer holder. in my experiances with beers containing adjuncts , they've all left me with something to remember them by in the morning. i've met people who can sit there and drink two 40oz mickeys before going to bed a wake up feeling great. not i , i stick with the basic four ingredients and wake up feeling great , i have four kids to cook for and get ready in the morning, i don't need to wake up feeling groggy.

[steveh]

I think part of what is missing in this conversation is that, in tasting beer, many of us - especially those who participate in homebrew judging competitions - can actually taste, smell and call out the different ingredients.

If you put three glasses of unmarked, identically colored beers in front of a panel of AHA judges they'll be able to tell you if there is corn or rice in the recipe. And if it's an over abundance of either - it's bound to be a pretty mediocre beer, if not downright lousy. Open minded or not.

I've told the tale before of the American Lager category that I judged and took one sip of an entry and knew rice was used - and had immediate hangover symptoms. It's how rice beer effects me and I won't drink it. The brewer stated on his entry that he was trying to clone AB Budweiser (never found him to ask him why - or thank him for the hangover that ruined the rest of my day) and it worked - Bud effects me the same way.

My favorite micro in the country now makes a corn beer - based on a recipe from 1900, hence its name. Capital's brewmaster, Kirby, has told me it's now his favorite beer of the brewery - I hate it. I love all of his other beers, but cannot stomach the flavor of his corn-beer - it honestly reminds me of Old Style (local mid-west favorite for those of you in other regions), and I drank more than enough of that before my tastes developed.

I like barley and hops in my beer. Maybe it's the old German in me showing, so be it. Many people have experimented with the recipe over the centuries, but it still works well and can build a better beer character than most anything else.

S.

[steveh]

The man, the myth, the legend - the undisputed heavyweight of beer connoisseurs the world over. From his "The New World Guide to Beer," 1988:

The United States
"These mass-market beers are made to the highest standards of quality control, but they are more notable for their consistency than for their individuality. They are the beer world's answer to a generic Chablis rather than a Chardonnay from Burgundy. Their first intention is to win widespread acceptance. They seek to offend no one, and therefore offer little to excite anyone. Should any drinker nonetheless become excited, there is always the option of an even lighter-bodied version of the same style. This is identified, with breathtaking understatement, as "light beer."

...The light-tasting, mass-market beers are purported to be universally appealing and easily drinkable, but this is open to question."

Of course he goes on to describe the developing micro-brew revolution and the emergence of better beer offerings to the U.S. consumer - but it's interesting to note that the "mass-market" beers to which Jackson alluded were probably all of the corn or rice adjunct variety.

S.

[Theakston]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tweek Hey theakston, I got an old horse drawn wagon that I would be glad to trade you for your car. Everything can be improved. EVERYTHING.

[B]

If you read my posts (and others for eg. where I took Richard to task for a too strict a definition of real ale) you will read that I am prefectly open to adjuncts. If they improve the quality. That said I don't exactly think the mega brewers are pushing the envelope and improving anything. I personally love the Belgian ales that use all kinds of combinations of spices and grains. And they are introducing new ones all the time. They also have a lot of traditional styles that it would be a shame to loose just because they are expensive to produce and because they focus on the product and not the marketing.

If you think the big brewers are improving the beer then you're perfectly entitled to think that and to drink their product. A lot of people do. Thankfully there are many brewers who are improving the standard of beer in the USA and introducing new concepts and flavour profiles as well. And yes they sometimes use adjuncts.

Anyway MJ has said it better (as he always does) in the post above. Thanks Steve for posting it.

[paul84043]

I (personally) think that Steve is right on with that last post.
I had never smellled the skunk smell in Mega's before I began making my own. It was like someone opened up a door to a whole new world where the grass actuall IS greener....
I also have the same reaction to the mass produced corn and rice beers. I don't understand it, but If I drink more than one, I start to feel really crappy almost immediately and will have a splitting headache within the hour..
I don't think that it's psychological, I never had that problem before. But I never really drank that much beer before, so maybe I just never paid attention?? It's really weird...

I now like the "style" of the beers that the Megas brew, the pilsners and what not, I just don't like thier beer.

[steveh]

Originally posted by me
Where are you and the pub anyway?

No, seriously - where's your pub? If it's anywhere in the S.E. Wisconsin or N.E. Illinois area I'd like to sample some of your brew -- ar maybe already have.

S.