Extract addition...when?

[BluesHarp]

In another thread it was mentioned that extract brews can be markedly improved by adding the malt extract later in the boil, minimizing the trademark extract "tang"; I believe the October issue of BYO magazine talked about this.

I have not been able to find this issue; can anyone offer a synopsis of their findings?

As I always do a partial mash with my speciality grains, I assume you add the bittering hops to the grain wort, and add the extracts at some later time?

This must also increase the hop utilization rate as the wort is much "thinner" than if you added all the malt right from the start; do I need to alter my bittering hop amounts?

I am not quite set up to go all-grain yet, but am not 100% happy with my beers due to that extract flavor.

[b3s]

I have taken to adding extract at T-15 minutes just to make sure it boils for 15 minutes and gets any baddies out of there (even though I freeze my extract) -- plus it is easier to get it to unclump, imo, during boil. There are those I know of that add extract to the carboy prior to pitching, but I am paranoid about adding things that have not been boiled (except yeast, of course).

Even with all-grain, I'll take an SG reading at about T-20 minutes (5 minutes to cool down) and correct the SG with DME when necessary.

[BluesHarp]

That applies to both LME and DME?
My next batch, an Imperial Stout, has 12# of LME and 2# of DME along a couple pounds of specialty grains...I will be very busy stirring!

PS - welcome back! :)

[b3s]

Yeah, the last (as in ever) wheat beer I made, I used wheat LME because wheat, all-grain, and I do not get along, I added the LME at T-15 minutes.

sounds like a big beer...is that an imperial stout?

P.S.: thanks...i was never here ;)

[BluesHarp]

It is an Imperial Stout...ProMash is suggesting around 12-14 % ABV...I imagine it will depend on how long my yeast holds out!
I may try culturing some yeast from a bottle of Three Floyd's DarkLord.

Actually, it is based on Davesarman's Bourbon Stout recipe, with a little hop tweaking. It will not be ready to drink until about this time next year, although I'm sure that won't stop me...

I've been making big beers lately because I'm just getting back into brewing after a three year hiatus, and they are the most forgiving; in fact, my last two - a Scotch Ale (Wee Heavy), and an Imperial IPA, have turned out quite good, even after some "issues".

[b3s]

get some yeast hulls from the LHBS, they freeze nicely, and if your fermentation gets stuck (tends to happen with big beers), toss a couple ounces in...gives the dormant yeast fresh bodies to get the fermentation going again. just a tip.

[chriscolby]

Originally posted by BluesHarp
That applies to both LME and DME?

No, just LME (liquid malt extract). DME (dried malt extract) needs to be boiled at least 45 minutes. Most kinds of LME designed for brewing have already been boiled when they were made.


Chris Colby
Bastrop, TX

[BluesHarp]

Thanks, Chris...that's good to know.

I'm brewing this beast tomorrow, so I'll make sure I get the DME in for at least 45 min. and add the LME later.

Welcome to the board, by the way!

[danno]

Originally posted by chriscolby
No, just LME (liquid malt extract). DME (dried malt extract) needs to be boiled at least 45 minutes. Most kinds of LME designed for brewing have already been boiled when they were made. Chris, I would normally never question any advice you give, but if DME needs to be boiled for 45 minutes, why do "accepted practices" for making starters only call for a 10 minute boil?

[BluesHarp]

...looks like I will be tossing a coin - DME for 45 or 15...:confused:

Well, the DME is not the major component, so maybe I'll do 45 for that and 15 for the LME.

[BluesHarp]

Chris, I thought your name sounded familiar, then I opened my BYO mag and said "oh yeah- editor" :o

My original inquiry was because I wish to reduce the trademark "extract flavor" from my beer; I was told that could be accomplished by minimizing the boiling time of the extract.

I don't have the issue with the article on late extract additons, so I'm not sure what your conclusions were...am I on the right track?

I'm not set up for all grain brewing yet, so I'm trying to improve on the quality of my extract (with partial mash specialty grains)beers.

I appreciate your opinion on this.

[wortchillergoal]

I use DME and boil for the one hour. I don't find that I have any flavor that would point to being an extract brew. I base this on the number of people that have tried my beers and made no comments along those lines.

I thought the yeast had more to do with that type of flavor. I know many people who can taste the diference between dried and liqyuid yeast.

[BluesHarp]

I always use WhiteLabs or Wyeast liquid yeast...I've heard people refer to an extract "tang", supposedly caused by the fact that LME is boiled during manufacturing, and re-boiling for long periods of time causes some off flavors.

I'm going to do a short boil today just to see if I notice any difference; of course, an Imperial stout has enough complexity to mask it. I've noticed it more on lighter colored brews.

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by BluesHarp
I always use WhiteLabs or Wyeast liquid yeast...I've heard people refer to an extract "tang", supposedly caused by the fact that LME is boiled during manufacturing, and re-boiling for long periods of time causes some off flavors.


That could be as I have not used LME for many years. I think I might remember a tang being present then. Yet, it was so long ago I can't be sure, too many pucks to the head.

[BluesHarp]

Do you do all-grain or use DME exclusevly?

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by BluesHarp
Do you do all-grain or use DME exclusevly?

I use DME and steep speciality grains. Splitting my time between hockey, wife, two boys and train events leaves no time for me to all grain.

[chriscolby]

Originally posted by danno
Chris, I would normally never question any advice you give, but if DME needs to be boiled for 45 minutes, why do "accepted practices" for making starters only call for a 10 minute boil?

Hey Danno,
Question away. This is actually a good, logical question.

A quick answer is that boiling accomplishes many things. Boiling for 15 minutes sanitizes the wort. Boiling beyond that also helps the hot break develop -- which leads to clearer, more stable beer.

When making a starter, most people just worry about sanitizing the starter wort. The liquid in a starter is either discarded or diluted into the main wort. So, even if you didn't get a good hot break in your starter wort, it's really not a big deal.


Chris Colby
Bastrop, TX

[b3s]

is hot break that important with DME? i mean, it is dehydrated wort, theoretically it already has had a hot break. same would be true of LME.

[BluesHarp]

Well, I brewed the Imperial Stout today...boiled the DME for 45 minutes, added the LME with 15 minutes remaining in the one hour total boil; it took 10 minutes to re-achieve boil (crappy modern expensive electric stove) and I boiled an additional 5 minutes to hit one hour total cooking time.

We will see how it works out in about a year...this beer will sit in secondary for about six months on bourbon soaked oak chips and then age in bottles for a while as well.

This will be next years holiday stout, an extreme winter warmer if you will.

I ended up with an OG of 1.119 (ProMash predicted 1.121, not to bad); I'm guessing between 12 and 14% ABV depending on yeast attenuation.

EDIT - BTW, I did achieve hot break after adding the LME.

[b3s]

don't forget yeast hulls if attenuation gets stuck ;)

sounds like a really good, really big beer!

[BluesHarp]

I added yeast nutrient and will pick up some hulls this week... if necessary, White Labs WLP099 Extreme Gravity Yeast is good to 15-16% without any extreme measures.

I also aerated the bejesus out of it before and immediately after pitching my starter...I might skip going to the gym tomorrow...:cool:

[fatboy570]

I use specialty grains with DME. I remove the grains at 170 deg., then remove brewpot from heat and add DME then stir till its dissolved, then back on heat to boil. Im not as knowledgeable as some others here, but IMO my last IPA was one of the best Ive done yet, although a bit too bitter from too much hops. After scorching some LME, Ive gone to DME only

[chriscolby]

Originally posted by BluesHarp
Chris, [...]

I don't have the issue with the article on late extract additons, so I'm not sure what your conclusions were...am I on the right track?



Yes, in my experiment I found that the "extract late" method worked well, allowing for lighter beer color and resulting in better hop utilization than beers made with the standard method of extract brewing. All you do is withhold a portion of the extract until late in the boil.

Another method that works well is the Texas Two-Step. In the Two-Step, you split your ingredients into two halves and brew a 2.5 gallon batch of homebrew one day, then brew the second half of the batch on day 2. (Pitch all of the yeast on day 1.)

This method may allow for more hop bitterness than extract late (if you're brewing a very hoppy beer). Also, if you don't make a yeast starter, you will likely get a better fermentation compared to just dumping a yeast packet into 5 gallons.

Of course, the Texas Two-Step takes almost twice as long.


Chris Colby
Bastrop, TX

[BluesHarp]

No problem with fermentation, that's for sure!

I posted this elsewhere, but I really like it :cool: -

after 20 hours:


Thanks for the tips, Chris...appreciate you taking the time to reply!

[fatboy570]

Yeah, fermentation activity on my latest batch is something. I use a plastic primary, and had to do a little cleanup the other day. Even with the lid sealed tight and fermentation lock, it still managed to leak out a bit. Fortunately, I use a pan with lip under the fermenter, so it wasnt all over the floor

[chriscolby]

Originally posted by b3s
is hot break that important with DME? i mean, it is dehydrated wort, theoretically it already has had a hot break. same would be true of LME.

DME (dried malt extract) is made by spraying unboiled wort into a vacuum chamber, dehydrating it. So, the break material hasn't formed yet. Hence, you should boil it long enough to produce a good hot break.


Chris Colby
Bastrop, TX

[Fly Creek]

Originally posted by BluesHarp
I believe the October issue of BYO magazine talked about this.

I have not been able to find this issue; can anyone offer a synopsis of their findings?

I read this article. In a nutshell, the author brewed four batches of the same recipe in an attemp to only change the boil technique for each batch. Methods used were: full wort boil, Texas two step, extract late and "the standard method." The recipe included 7.25 lbs. of extra pale LME and 0.66 lbs. of crystal malt.

By using the "extract late" method, the result was a noticeably lighter colored brew with a more bitter flavor. This method involved withholding "half or more" of the LME until the end of the boil - not too many details other than that.

I would go into greater detail, but I'm a little pressed for time today.

J

[BrewDog]

Fly-

ChrisColby IS the author, and the Editor of BYO. It's great to have him on board!

[Fly Creek]

I guess I should read the entire thread next time before I go spouting off... :o

[chriscolby]

Originally posted by Fly Creek
I read this article. In a nutshell, the author brewed four batches of the same recipe in an attemp to only change the boil technique for each batch. Methods used were: full wort boil, Texas two step, extract late and "the standard method."

I actually brewed eight batches -- two with each extract technique. This was to ensure that the results were reproducable. (They were.)

Originally posted by Fly Creek
By using the "extract late" method, the result was a noticeably lighter colored brew with a more bitter flavor. This method involved withholding "half or more" of the LME until the end of the boil - not too many details other than that.
J [/B]

If you read the recipe section, I give the nitty-gritty details there. There are lots of little variants to the extract late technique, but it's not brain surgery.

When you make an extract late beer, just withhold half or more of your LME until near the end of the boil and stir it in then.

The exact amount you withhold doesn't matter too much, as long as you add a little extract at first so you are boiling the hops in wort (not just water). I like to add enough extract at first so I'm boiling the beer at around it's target gravity. (This is around half the LME if you are boiling 2.5 gallons, i.e., half the batch volume.)

The timing isn't critical either -- stir in your extract with 15 minutes left in the boil or stir it in at the very end of the boil and let the wort sit for 15 minutes before cooling. Either way works although you'll get a little more out of your hops if you do the latter.

In the experiment, I found that the two extract beers brewed with the standard method (concentrated stovetop boil) were much darker and less hoppy than the six beers brewed by the other extract methods (extract late, Texas two-step and full-wort boil). There were small differences among the "non-standard" brews, which I detail in the article.


Chris Colby
Bastrop, TX

[Fly Creek]

I stand corrected.

An excellent article, BTW...

J:)