Why haven't you opened a brewpub

[gifty74]

I'm sure more than a few of you have considered it, especially by looking at the thread on opening a brewery, so, what is your excuse?

[steveh]

A micro brewery, or a brew-pub? In answer to both - no money. :(

S.

[gifty74]

i meant a brew pub. i can't change the poll title, so hopefully someone will understand what i mean.

[Steve16823]

Not enough money. Although that's probably an excuse for not having the guts to take the risk....

[newportstorm]

This may not apply to everyone here but this is the way I see it. Opening a business of your own, be it a brewpub, hardware store or lemonade stand involves risk. Sure the capital to get off the ground is always a hurdle, but with personal savings, investors and loans (may have to put up some collateral like property) it can be done - and is done every day in this country.

Almost all of us have thought to ourselves at some time "I could do a better job at that" or "If I ran this place...". Yet, few ever do anything about it. Why? Risk. Doubt. Contentness. That paycheck keeps us coming back each week. The financial security (however small) of that paycheck is powerful stuff.

Same goes for the sacrifice in the first few years. Family time decreases. Luxuries (vacations, gifts, cars) may have to be cut back until profitability begins. Lifestyles usually have to change. My uncle told his sons he was "cancelling Christmas" for the next three years while his biz got going - sure, now all of them are millionaires, but w/o the luxury of hindsight, could you tell your kids that?

To strike out on your own and risk your life savings, someone else's savings and maybe even your house is nervewracking. Owning a business isn't for everybody, which is why not everybody does. I'm guilty of dreaming about my business. So is my wife. And a lot of you probably are too.

Not trying to sound depressing, just real. My wife just did some small jobs on her own (decorating weddings) to get some practical experience. The results and positive feedback were encouraging and she is now confident enough to start looking into some classes for small business owners. Maybe she'll start working out of our garage and grow from there. I could be married to the next Martha Stewart - though much prettier and not evil! :p

Cheers!

[gifty74]

great way to put it. i guess that's what it really boils down to for most. but hey, hopefully the poll gets some good data. of course you can figure out that i started the poll because i got on this kick again, and wanted to see who's already been through this. the only thread that was started has since fizzled out (there might have been a few older ones too). risk is certainly it, but that risk can be lowered significantly depending on many factors. i feel very strongly that research is probably the simplest way to lower risk. at first the risk is almost always high, but the more you study and call people and learn and do all that you can beforehand, the lower that risk gets. and for me, it would seem like it would just hit a certain point and then you'd just know it was time to do it. that might not happen for everyone, but i was thinking lately about what it would take for me to actually do it, and that stuck out a lot of the time. i'm hoping over the next few years to hit that point, but who knows. these things for me are usually fads, its just the fads that hang around long enough to make me get serious about it that are scary. great discussion though, this is what i was looking for, hopefully more jump in. i'd like to hear some success stories too! like you say, most people chime in and state how it is ("real") and that's usually not what most people want to hear. and you read everywhere the failure rates of small businesses, etc, but its nice to hear good things too.

[chazwicke]

I own my own small business. I employ 15 people. My company turns 5 on 10/1. Before that I was an independant contractor for about 5 years and have been in my field for over 20. Newport is right on in his discription. It took a lot of long hours and very hard work as well as some luck to build what I now have. It's a hard road to figurehead. I am somewhat conservative in my actions and taking that first step was very, very tough. It takes nerve. My wife (who works for and has small ownership in a competitor) and family were sort of against it initially as I was making very good money as an independant. But I decided to go for it and have never looked back. There were those first couple of years where I was putting in 12-16 hour days but now I rarely work a full week (Have not done so yet this year) and I have time for my two passions Beer and Travel. A lot of it for me has been being in the right place at the right time and cultivating the right connections. It takes nerve, guts, luck and timing as well as knowing the right people.

The closest I got to opening a brewpub was when I figured that I would do the start up. Incorporating, registering a name that would go well locally, getting permits and licenses ABC dealings, and doing all the initial paperwork and then selling to a company who could just do the brewing. basically get all the legwork done and then sell to someone who was ready to come in and brew. I never actually did this because it was in the early 90s and just about the time I went independant.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by gifty74
great way to put it. i guess that's what it really boils down to for most. but hey, hopefully the poll gets some good data. of course you can figure out that i started the poll because i got on this kick again, and wanted to see who's already been through this. the only thread that was started has since fizzled out (there might have been a few older ones too). risk is certainly it, but that risk can be lowered significantly depending on many factors. i feel very strongly that research is probably the simplest way to lower risk. at first the risk is almost always high, but the more you study and call people and learn and do all that you can beforehand, the lower that risk gets. and for me, it would seem like it would just hit a certain point and then you'd just know it was time to do it. that might not happen for everyone, but i was thinking lately about what it would take for me to actually do it, and that stuck out a lot of the time. i'm hoping over the next few years to hit that point, but who knows. these things for me are usually fads, its just the fads that hang around long enough to make me get serious about it that are scary. great discussion though, this is what i was looking for, hopefully more jump in. i'd like to hear some success stories too! like you say, most people chime in and state how it is ("real") and that's usually not what most people want to hear. and you read everywhere the failure rates of small businesses, etc, but its nice to hear good things too.

You would be competeing with DuClaw and Clay Pipe in your area, Correct?

[newportstorm]

I know four guys here at my local brewery - Coastal Extreme Brewing Co. (makers of Newport Storm) - who took the leap in '99. Brent (the president) took a year off after college and worked for a Pharma Company (?) while he wrote the business plan. Got some friends, who had also moved on to other endeavors, back into the fold and relocated to RI - a state with NO bottling breweries at the time. (Note: none of these guys grew up here in RI). They started small with only one flagship style but have grown into three other states (MA, CT & VA), now brew four seasonals and an annual strong brew for the holidays, have started canning their brew and do a good growler business.

I know they used investors as each piece of their equipment (brew kettles, mash tun, bright tanks, etc.) all bear the name of one of the investors. The all lived together in a house they bought (until one got married last year), don't drive new cars, don't dress flashy, work extremely odd hours and are probably on the lower end of the salary scale. But, y'know what...they seem happy and.......they own a brewery!! Running out of beer is never a problem. ;)

I'm sure almost every state has a story like this one and brewers appear to be a cordial bunch willing to share their stories to help a fledgling. So start researching and best of luck 'gifty'!

Cheers!

[davesarman]

Lot's of good comments above. I can say I've thought about it. I even interviewed for a job as a brewer at a brewpub that opened up a couple of years ago. Got the offer, but the pay was squat and now I just heard the brewpub closed down. After toying with the idea of getting in the business for a few years, I finally decided that I'd rather keep it as a hobby. Now I just tell people, "I'd rather be on THIS side of the bar!"

[chazwicke]

I have a good friend who was in the same business as I am. He took the plunge and volunteered at Potomac River Brewing a now defunct brewery in my area. (They sold out to a NC brewer who now makes the brands). He worked there until it was closed down and now he is head brewer at Legend in Richmond. I'm not sure how much he earns but he enjoys it. I know lots of brewers around the region and owners too. I would recommend volunteering at a successful brewery or offering to work at a low wage with the intention of learning the business. Jerry Bailey, owner of Old Dominion cut his teeth at Stoudt's in PA. Ron Barchett and John Mallett of Victory learned from Jerry. It seems this is how it works.

[gifty74]

no, it wouldn't be in this area. duclaw is my favorite, and i go there all the time, and the brewmaster has emailed me a few times with recipe tips, etc. he actually generated a recipe for a 5 gallon batch based on my favorite beer that he brews. awesome huh!!?? i haven't met him yet, but he sounds like a great guy. but no, i would find a spot that where there wasn't already an established brew pub within a pretty large radius. that's just asking for failure. researching a location would be one of the most important things of course, and has been one of the things i've keyed on here recently. duclaw is one kick ass business, and they are expanding like crazy, and opened a new location on fells point down in baltimore and have another in arundel mills. i could only dream to be that successful.

i've already wrote to jim wagner, duclaw's brewmaster, and told him i'd come be an assistant, and work for nothing. i just want to learn about it, and talk to him before doing any further. he said they're working the bugs out of the new system, and will have me in when its good to go. i'm going to keep buggig him i guess, won't get anywhere if i don't.

[chazwicke]

The owner of DuClaw was a college roomate of the former owner of Brimstone. Brimstone sold out a few years ago.

I have heard of marketing studies being done and it was suggested that a population of 50,000.00 or more could support a local brewpub.

I have yet to visit Arundal Mills. But Fells Point is a fun place to drink. The Wharf Rat was one of my very early favorite brewers. Does Bill Oliver still own them? Both locations?

What is the law in Maryland regarding breweries? I have heard that a brewery may only brew in one location. So I know that Rams Head / Fordham have also been expanding and opening in different areas but supplying the other locations from the original brewery I think. I guess DuClaw will do the same. What do you think of the Clay Pipe beers? I've only had a sixer of the Backfin.

[gifty74]

haven't seen clay pipe yet, are they down in b-more? i've been to degroens (balitmore brewing company) and red brick station there in white marsh. they have a nice cream stout on tap right now. i haven't been to the wharf rat yet, but that will be next when i'm down there. i've also been to iron hill up in DE, good stuff there. what i keep thinking is these guys have all been around for a while, and are expanding if anything. seems more stable than a lot of the things i've looked at, after it gets going of course.

yeah, there was something duclaw had to do with moving the brewing off site. they now brew in an industrial park in abingdon, md. there was some law about brewing a certain amount of bbl per year, and that it had to be off site if it went over that amount (i think). might have also had to do with the multiple locations too.

[chazwicke]

Baltimore has it's share of good breweries. HUgh Sisson and Theo DeGroen were the pioneers up there. Also Craig Stuart-Paul and Bill Oliver. Now there are more brewpubs and good beer bars then most other areas in our region.

Clay pipe is in Westminster.

http://www.cpbrewing.com/default.asp#

[fretlessman71]

I never really acted on my ongoing dream to have a brewpub, but I have another reason for that: It would interfere with my dream of playing bass for a living! It'd be pretty dang hard to do both.

[toneyc]

I thought for a while that your shift key was broken, but you used paretheses marks so I don't know what it is, then.

:eek:
Toney.

[fretlessman71]

??????

[wortchillergoal]

I can't add much to some thoughts that have been posted. i did own a Ben & Jerry's franchise for awhile. The mall I was in failed. I tried to stay while the mall was trying to rebuild bussiness taken by a newer mall that took our main anchor.

I will repeat the same thought to those that are dreaming about their own bussiness. There are ways to get backing. You need to be creative and ready to commit to long hours with little pay for awhile. The rewards are great.

As far as for myself and a brewpub, I don't think I would want the extra lega; hassels that go along with that type og bussiness.

[O2 Mash]

I started my own company almost two years ago. Now, I employ, uhm let me count...... uh, one person including myself. But, I must admit he is a pretty cool guy.

I am lucky to have a wife that works, otherwise I could never have started my own company. It certainly takes balls, but it mostly takes money. In my case, I am a manufacturer's sales rep and very low capital needed to start up. A car, business cards, and a whole lot of contacts that could get me up and running. I was also fortunate to have a number of companies that I represented at my previous employer fire my old employer and let me represent them in the Illinois and Wisconsin territory. The ex-employer doesn't like me much.

Now, 1.5 years later I am doing much better. The money is beginning to roll in and should only pick up steam from here. I must say that having no one to answer to (except my wife and three kids) is the best thing of all. :)

[b3s]

actually, i have given this a great deal of thought (specifically the brew pub idea). i've also done some research not just into what it takes, but also into college level classes in restaraunt management and small business accounting along with reading a lot of technical brewing books and the initiation of a business plan (hey, it may be a craft, but don't go before a banker with a smile and a dream unless you enjoy being laughed at!).

probably the two biggest reasons why i have not done this yet are:

not good enough -- i need a higher degree of consistency and a lot more practice. i need to be able to do a lot of the sciency side of the biz in my head, first, too. it'll come with time.
recently divorced -- and suffering the financial consequences of that for quite some time. in the land of ERA, you still don't want to be male before a divorce court (and i say that lacking a sexist bone in my body, that's a fact).


hopefully the term of point two will be sufficient for point one to be taken care of...

[mmmBeer...]

For me it has been for a couple of reasons. One, (and the most important) this city will not support brewpubs. We have one and the beer is mediocre at best and the food is awful. Second, I have a three year old, and have worked in pubs…not sure I want to be in a business that often and away from home, new businesses require your presence for most of the time, and I ma not ready to commit to that. Third, the pub/bar/restaurant industry is brutal and cut throat, it is really hard to get into the market and stay there, I am willing to bet that a large number of the business bankruptcies are failed pub/bars/restaurants.

Just my 2 cents…

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by b3s
actually, i have given this a great deal of thought (specifically the brew pub idea). i've also done some research not just into what it takes, but also into college level classes in restaraunt management and small business accounting along with reading a lot of technical brewing books and the initiation of a business plan (hey, it may be a craft, but don't go before a banker with a smile and a dream unless you enjoy being laughed at!).

probably the two biggest reasons why i have not done this yet are:

not good enough -- i need a higher degree of consistency and a lot more practice. i need to be able to do a lot of the sciency side of the biz in my head, first, too. it'll come with time.
recently divorced -- and suffering the financial consequences of that for quite some time. in the land of ERA, you still don't want to be male before a divorce court (and i say that lacking a sexist bone in my body, that's a fact).


hopefully the term of point two will be sufficient for point one to be taken care of... I feel for you regarding point two. Been through one myself, but I have to say I'm very lucky in that Colorado gave me great laws to deal with. We split everything we got after the marriage straight down the middle. Like I said, I'm a very lucky man in that regard.

Maybe by the time point one is taken care of, you'll need a partner in crime....? :)

[b3s]

thanks for the support, fret! yeah, i should have moved here first and filed here...i know that NOW!

i probably will need a partner in crime, however, the current thought is that a particular northeastern OR college town needs a really good brewpub with a good menu, and a very fine lady there needs a (specific) man around the house.

unfortunately, unless i win the lottery or something, well, there's no interim tech jobs for me out there.

ok, yes, i'll have some cheese with that wine!

[fretlessman71]

You just hang in there, buddy... your time will come.

Now I'll have a little wine with that cheese! :D

[b3s]

thanks, fret. i always say one should go through life with a smile, hope, and extra ammo ;)

always liked that bumper sticker that says i miss my ex, but my aims improving

[brewmonkey]

Don't forget that a brewpub has 2 sides of an operation, brewing and food. It is usually NOT the brewery that causes the business to go under it is the restaurant side. Cost of goods and labor on the food side can KILL you quickly. Beer runs about 8-10% COG raw material where the restaurant side is usually in the 33-35% range. Beer only needs 1-2 people to run the brewery in a small operation, the food side will need much more.

I know I ran the brewing by myself and cranked out 500+bbls on a 5bbl system. That is about 124K pints of beer a year at $3 a beer or $372K in sales.

On the restaurant side of a 500bbl operation I would expect total reciepts for the year to be about $1.2-$1.5mm (including liquor). With sales numbers like that your COG would be about 396-495K and labor would be another 300-375K per year. That does not include any other overhead like mortgage/rent, utilities, permits, insurance, paper products, flatware, equipment for the kitchen, repairs to equipment/building, point of sale terminals, computer upkeep, merchandise etc...

You can see that the restaurant side can quickly eat up and possibly kill any money coming in.

The biggest thing opening a brewpub would be having enough working capital to get you through the first 3-5 years as most studies show that it takes about that long to start seeing a profit.

On the restaurant side just as in the brewery you will have equipment to purchase/lease such as grills, ovens, hot tables, prep tables fryers, tables & chairs. It can easily run into the 100K's for these items.

If the brewery is a cash cow the restaurant side is my ex wife. She could spend money faster then I was able to make it.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by b3s
thanks, fret. i always say one should go through life with a smile, hope, and extra ammo ;)

always liked that bumper sticker that says i miss my ex, but my aims improving

Mine said "if you miss your ex, reload and give it another shot."

[Bruno_78]

so would it not make sense to open as a small brewery, and grow your business as it allows?

That's my plan. This winter, I'm going to work on the legal stuff, and a business plan. And by the end of the next year, I would like to be producing at least on a small scale. I figure, by year 5, I will be stable enough to open a pub and have a full scale operation.

But here's the thing. in order for me to make this work, I have to keep my day job. Which means I have to start off really small, and put in a lot of long days. I'm willing to do it, and I have the motivation. So I believe it will work.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by mmmBeer...
For me it has been for a couple of reasons. One, (and the most important) this city will not support brewpubs. We have one and the beer is mediocre at best and the food is awful.

Well, why would the locals support a place with mediocre beer and awful food? Sounds like a winner :rolleyes:

I understand about the biz being cutthroat and location is key, but....OK beer + Bad food = out of business. Good beer + good food = success.

Cheers!

[Bruno_78]

Originally posted by chazwicke


I have heard of marketing studies being done and it was suggested that a population of 50,000.00 or more could support a local brewpub.



Do you remember where you found this information?

[Bruno_78]

My boss' family has owned several businesses, and they have been very successful. One of which was started on their kitchen counter with friends coming over at night to help. Now the business has grown immensly. I don't know how much it's worth, but they just built a $3 million building a couple years back.

[chazwicke]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by b3s
[B]thanks, fret. i always say one should go through life with a smile, hope, and extra ammo ;)

Karma. Keep a positive attitude and try to do the right thing and good things will come. I rarely wake up in a bad mood or even get into one. I truly believe that if you are a positive person your lot in life will be better. All of us have been kicked down once or twice but we get back up, brush off and go on. either it works or I am just a very lucky person.

Ever know anyone who bad things just seem to constantly happen to? I'm of the belief that some of that has to be brought on by themselves and their attitudes.

[

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Bruno_78
Do you remember where you found this information?

No I don't. I heard or read it a long time ago because I was thinking of my region. (We now have several brewpubs and breweries and the population of NO. VA is over 1 million).

I know a lot of states have laws that say if you sell alcohol a certain % of your income has to be from food.

But Virginia seems now to be pretty hospitable to breweries. We have several like Old Dominion that primarily are not brewpubs although most have a small pub tasting room attached. I guess having AB and Coors breweries in the state has helped with favorable legislation that even helps the micros.

[brewmonkey]

Starting a brewery and then adding a pub can be difficult. If you start as a distro pub you will incur costs for things like bottles and packaging as well as the need for additional equipment such as a bottle line/filler and all it's associated pieces and then there is the cost of buying the glass, package material and point of sale items like coasters, bar mats and that junk.

I have heard of many restaurants adding a brewpub with much success but not many the other way around.

[chazwicke]

Old Dominion is probably the rare exception. They started out giving tours and a few free samples in a small room. As they grew I guess the need for more space was required and they eventually opened a little pub that is always packed. Every evening. And they are located in an industrial park in what once was considered a rural area. They have been extremely successful. I usually stop in just to fill the occasional growler.

[Beaver]

How bout Bell's? They were a brewery before they opened a pub IIRC.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Beaver
How bout Bell's? They were a brewery before they opened a pub IIRC.

As I said, in some cases it may work. However in Bells case they did not add the pub (The Eccentric Cafe) until 10 years after the start up. The pub has it's own pub sized system to brew beer for the pub.

[Bruno_78]

I thought I had heard that they're not brewing out of the pub at all anymore. Could be mistaken, just a rumor.

[DreamWeaver]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Starting a brewery and then adding a pub can be difficult. If you start as a distro pub you will incur costs for things like bottles and packaging as well as the need for additional equipment such as a bottle line/filler and all it's associated pieces and then there is the cost of buying the glass, package material and point of sale items like coasters, bar mats and that junk.

I have heard of many restaurants adding a brewpub with much success but not many the other way around.

I have to agree with BM. At least in my geographical region. Chances are around here that a Pub/Restuarant will have to rely on income from food and entertainment or atmosphere anyway. Then an addition of brewing on site would catch on better in my area.

My recent experiments were, well, I was expecting feedback in a beer review about taste, color, carbonation, ect. but got feedback like "Hey man, I got a buzz off that brew, it was OK, did you really make that?" or similar. When asked to be more specific, most could'nt remember too much else because they got smashed on BMC. Thats a town tradition around here. Sad.

Think I'll go into making Pizza!

[b3s]

the location i'm looking at is a community college town in northeastern OR. my GF and my favorite place there has good microbrews on tap and a pretty decent restaraunt. most of the other restaraunts are OK (some decent mexican places, etc.).

the upside is that OR has a lot of decent brews in it already, so at least some of the population is beer literate. when you see 20-somethings drinking mirror pond pale because it tastes good, well, that's always something. plus, with a college community, you can get some pretty decent travel through your door.

the downside is that OR has a lot of decent brews in it already, so there's competition for taste bud space. another downside is that it's a college town and most of the students are underage and will be trying to get in. plus town size is smaller than that 50K chaz mentioned.

i'm thinking of hiring a marketing study to see if the population would support such a place once i get serious (i.e. have a business plan, a series of stable beer recipes, researched local/state/federal laws, etc.).

[chazwicke]

Also, keep in mind, most college students are usually broke.

[b3s]

if i recall my college days, i find that i remember there's broke (eating at the cafeteria with your meal ticket in lieu of pizza) and then there's destitute (no money for beer).