Proofing Policy

[wortchillergoal]

My employer has started a we proof everyone program. No matter how old you look, you will be asked for id. The press releases to announce this said it has a two goals.

First is to help curb underage drinking. Of course everyone in the community benefits.

Second reason was that young cashiers have trobule being able to judge ages. With this policy in place, they can preform their job better as they no longer have to worry about guessing asking for ID.

Many older people did not like this. A bunch of my hockey buddys said they would no longer buy beer from my employer, which has 70 stores in a few states.

What do you guys think and have you heard of the same in your area? A couple guys at a goalie bb said that there are convience store doing the same.

[b3s]

many airports have this as a policy...notably o'hare. denver's oktoberfest does the same thing (although they give you an armband upon initial proof). i don't have a problem with the policy at all, in fact i think it's an excellent idea.

[Caffinehog]

Well, it's the law in Ohio, but nobody seems to do it. Frankly, it's a bit of extra work to get out your liscense, but I go out of my way to get good beer, so that's no biggie for me. Those who buy budmillercoors might no longer buy from you.

[Wilson]

I've got a bar-owner buddy of mine that ID's everyone, no matter how old you look, to cover his ass. I dont mind it at all. Some people seem to get pissed about it though, like its a personal offense to them.

[chazwicke]

I don't mind it. It is a little flattering to tell the truth.

[threecb]

I don't mind it at all. I have proof of age. Now get me my beer!

[MeridianFC]

There's nothing wrong with the policy. If you can't be arsed to get your license out of your wallet how can you possibly have enough energy to carry a six pack. Quit bitchin' and get your ID out.

[fretlessman71]

I agree - do they really have something to hide, and that's why they don't want to get their wallet out? I've seen blue-haired ladies buying brandy who got carded... they seemed to be flattered! QUIT'CHER BITCHIN' AND GET YER CARD OUT!

I used to make a joke of it when I was a server - if someone ordered a drink, I'd ask them if they brought their permission slip from home. :) Any problems they might have originally had with getting carded were tossed aside as their friends would say things like, "YEAH... did your mommy sign it for you? Did you remember to put it in your lunch box?"

[wortchillergoal]

I see both sides of the issues. In this day of lawsuits and balame everyone but me it makes sense.

Still, If a guy who looks 50 plus is only buying beer it can slow down the line while he gets his ID out. I know, he should have it out already. If you think that is going to happen let ask a question. How many times have you bee in line for a few minutes ant the person in front of you waiting too has not gotten their method of payment ready until told the total?

[fretlessman71]

Yeah, but if the only problem with the system is that certain people are going to try to buck the process as much as they can (i.e., try to get away without producing their ID because they're obviously old enough), I can live with that. Seems to me that the same "elderly" people who balk at producing an ID are the same elderly people who drive 14 mph in the left lane because they CAN. This is not all elderly, and many people pull crap like this before they're even within shouting distance of their golden years, but a few whiners aren't going to knock me off of my soap box.

[wortchillergoal]

I agree Fret, but also the people complaining the most are the mid 30 to mid 40 crowd. I would not be surprised if this policy becomes the norm around the country in a few years.

As for my point qabout waiting in line, well we have to wait no matter what so anpother minute or two shouldn't hurt.

I guess if youi don't really want to produce your ID, brew at home.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
people who drive 14 mph in the left lane because they CAN. .

Yes! Hang up the damn cell phone and drive! Or at least get out of the fast lane!



Sorry, I'm all about libertarianism and personal freedoms but EVERY DAY I see people driving like they are drunk or impeding traffic and sure enough.....they are on the cell phone.
Just a personal pet peeve from a semi-agressive driver.

[b3s]

like i said before, i am in total agreement with ID-ing everyone. in fact, IMO, it is more egalitarian. i always chuckle when i see a sign that says "we ID everyone under 40" -- how do they know if i'm over 40 without IDing me? in fact, i'm under 40 and they've never carded me...should i be insulted? happy? how about ID everyone, then we'll know for sure.

the paint store that sells good beer near me has never carded me...but they card everyone young looking and insist on carding everyone in the group (including the people in the car) as well, which i totally agree with, too.

i disagree with the line is too long thing. in fact, when i start to get annoyed by that, the first thing i ask myself is do i have my ID out?. i really try to avoid those pot-kettle situations :)

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by b3s
i really try to avoid those pot-kettle situations

OK, OK so every once in a while i get a call while I'm driving too! :o

[studentofbeer]

i just wish states didn't make it so hard to find the dates on a driver's license. this is probably just a college town problem where people come from all over, but what really slows things up is the fact that each state buries your birthdate somewhere different than the rest of the states.

for some reason i get a little annoyed when i get carded, but a friend of mine just takes the pro-active approach of always having his ID out ready to be carded anytime he buys anything, which is really good. it just seems dorky or something.

maybe stores should operate like some bars-- card people as they enter. that would keep the young kids out and wouldn't impede the line. once you were inside you can go about your business as usual.

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by studentofbeer
i just wish states didn't make it so hard to find the dates on a driver's license. this is probably just a college town problem where people come from all over, but what really slows things up is the fact that each state buries your birthdate somewhere different than the rest of the states...... maybe stores should operate like some bars-- card people as they enter. that would keep the young kids out and wouldn't impede the line. once you were inside you can go about your business as usual.

I agree with you on a standard form of ID. I think it is easier for people to mess with ou-of-state licenses to fool their way in to a bar or purchase alcohol.

As far as stores carding people on the way in, this would not be a good practice for grocery retailers like my employer. We sell much product to college kids living off campus not to mention their dorm friends who have a mini fridge in the room. I still have to show my ID and I work there. I don't mind as overall I think it may be the best way to conduct the alcohol business given laws and the current mess of different IDs that are used.

[danno]

Originally posted by wortchillergoal
I agree with you on a standard form of ID. I think it is easier for people to mess with ou-of-state licenses to fool their way in to a bar or purchase alcohol.
back in my c-store managment days, we had an annual paperback book in full color with every state and province with all the pertinent info for proper ID's. This shouldn't be an issue for any conscientious purveyor of spirits...

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by danno
back in my c-store managment days, we had an annual paperback book in full color with every state and province with all the pertinent info for proper ID's. This shouldn't be an issue for any conscientious purveyor of spirits... Yeah, but just how many conscientious college kids do you know when it comes to carding other college kids?

I realize you can't have a foolproof system, but I had never considered the idea of a standard format for ID. You could put the state flag in the background, and use the hologram idea for a print-across that would be unique to every state. OTOH, it might make it a little bit easier for people to make fake IDs...

[studentofbeer]

i didnt think about the (very obvious) sale of alcohol in a grocery store or other mixed retail setting, so obviously carding at the door would only work in a purely alcohol-distributing environment.

i barely pay for anything with cash, so another interesting idea would be to just make the verification a part of my credit or debit card transaction. I dont know exactly what is stored on that magnetic stripe, but it's a bunch of stuff. If they could key in a way to get your birthday, let the computer do the checking. If you want to pay cash, you have to deal with the wait. Im sure there are problems with this system as well, but it's another idea.

[fretlessman71]

One problem would be when someone steals your card and tries to use it...

[Beaver]

Originally posted by studentofbeer
i didnt think about the (very obvious) sale of alcohol in a grocery store or other mixed retail setting, so obviously carding at the door would only work in a purely alcohol-distributing environment.

The solution to that is easy...only sell beer at liquor stores. Colorado has it made! :(

[fretlessman71]

Yeah, isn't that ricalculus? Who cares how strong the brew is in the store? The same carding rules apply, right? Maybe it's a taxation issue...

I wonder how one would go about getting the law changed? Where does one go to find out this sort of information?

[b3s]

Originally posted by Beaver
The solution to that is easy...only sell beer at liquor stores. Colorado has it made! :(

yeah, but not on sunday...what genious thought of that one?

[Stahlsturm]

[angry rant]I´m probably going to get crucified for this but I think this entire ID thing is laughable. I had my first beer with 14 and it was bought for me by my Dad. He always said that children should be used to alcohol in order to prevent all this secrecy and people going totally berzerk when the law allows them to drink.

The suicide and alcoholism rates are way elevated in countries with restrictive alcohol policy like the USA or all scandinavian countries compared to places where beer and wine are normal parts of everyday life. One can not help but notice that all restrictive countries had a strong protestant religious past as well and that past is still weighing heavily on the people.[/angry rant]

[fretlessman71]

Actually, I couldn't agree with you more, Stahlstrum. I'm 33 years old, and I have to say that I've probably just barely drank more beer SINCE I turned 21 than I had BEFORE. I'm sure a lot of the reason was because it wasn't legal for me to do so when I was a teenager. This concept of the "forbidden fruit" is pretty strong to me. Teenagers act like children most of the time, with rare flashes of the adults they will become... and that means oftentimes doing exactly what they were told not to do, whether it by parents, teachers, policemen, or politicians who pass weird laws. I'm not sure that this country will ever completely do away with a drinking age, but I live in a state where Pete Coors (yes, same guy) is running for US Senate, and one of the things that he's in favor of is lowering the drinking age to 18. I think that's more than fair, to be honest - the drinking age should reflect the voting age, the marriage age, and the age required to enter the military, not to mention the draft. If you take away the part of the law that says you can't do something until a certain age, then activities like "underage drinking" don't have the same look-what-I'm-getting-away-with appeal, and teenagers aren't doing something cool and daring by getting drunk anymore... they're just doing something that makes them act stupid.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by b3s
yeah, but not on sunday...what genious thought of that one? What a joy to live in a state with Blue Laws, eh? No liquor purchasing on Sunday. No car buying on Sunday. There are arguments on both sides of the issue, but I think it's crap. Although, several stores that are affected by the law seem to like it: http://www.collegian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/08/31/4133e8b239d23

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
What a joy to live in a state with Blue Laws, eh? No liquor purchasing on Sunday. No car buying on Sunday.

You won´t find a single open store anywhere in Germany on a Sunday. And I hate it. Good thing you can buy beer in every gas station and there´s at least 8 stations in Regensburg that are open 24/7.

[Steve16823]

I agree. I think our liquor control laws, including the minimum drinking age of 21, and in general our society's outwardly puritanical view of drinking alcohol has tended to make alcohol abuse more common among people of all ages.

I mean, my parents were always pretty cool about alcohol, but I wonder if I had grown up in a society where alcohol was more socially acceptable if i wouldn't have been interested in sneaking behind the barn when I was sixteen to "shotgun" pounders of Keystone with my friends... Ah.. memories... lol

Sadly, I don't get carded much anymore... And I live in a college town! :( I suppose I would if I went out to a college bar or nightclub, but I never much cared for those overcrowded, loud places anyhow...

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Actually, I couldn't agree with you more, Stahlstrum. I'm 33 years old, and I have to say that I've probably just barely drank more beer SINCE I turned 21 than I had BEFORE.

I turned 37 in July. Over here you can drink alone in pubs when you´re 16. Nobody checks anyways when you drink beer. They´re a bit more tough on harder stuff and I agree with that. Kids should learn how to drink under parental supervision, not to impress their buddies at highschool or collegue. Once a healthy use of alcohol is established kids are ready for life.

All this carding stuff is just religious paranoia and actually makes things a lot worse.

[fretlessman71]

Yep... I'm glad I got my drinking to excess phase out of the way by the time I was 19. Haven't been drunk since; don't miss it a bit. Alcohol tolerance doesn't impress me, but self-control sure does! Having a healthy respect for alcohol is a great virtue to me.

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Yep... I'm glad I got my drinking to excess phase out of the way by the time I was 19. Haven't been drunk since; don't miss it a bit. Alcohol tolerance doesn't impress me, but self-control sure does! Having a healthy respect for alcohol is a great virtue to me.

I do get tipsy occasionally when we´re on a BBQ in my parents garden. They live only 2 streets over so I can just walk home and pick up my car the next day. I know alcohol very well and thus I know how my body and mind react to it and can act accordingly. I haven´t gotten drunk by accident or ignorance since I was 17.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Stahlsturm
You won´t find a single open store anywhere in Germany on a Sunday. And I hate it. Good thing you can buy beer in every gas station and there´s at least 8 stations in Regensburg that are open 24/7.

I bought beer in a gas station there. I thought that was interesting. Mixing drinking and driving kind of. I am certainly in agreement with you about drinking prohibition. I allow my 17 year old son to occasionally have a beer. He has not really developed a taste for alcohol but occasionally he will try one. I think drinking age, driving age, voting age, draft age, adult prison age should all be consistant. 18.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Stahlsturm
I do get tipsy occasionally when we´re on a BBQ in my parents garden. They live only 2 streets over so I can just walk home and pick up my car the next day. I know alcohol very well and thus I know how my body and mind react to it and can act accordingly. I haven´t gotten drunk by accident or ignorance since I was 17.

I agree again. I never get drunk and have not in a very long time. That is not to say that I don't occasionally feel the alcohol a bit. But it is only on unsual occasions where I ever drink more than 4 or 5 and I rarely drink during the week. And if I do it is usually only 1 beer. I like quality not quantity. Unfortunately this causes an over stock in my beer fridge as I buy more than I can drink. As for my beach place, we have had lots of company so I keep a pretty good stock down there and the turn over is greater.

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I think drinking age, driving age, voting age, draft age, adult prison age should all be consistant. 18.

Agreed. Being able to buy a gun but not a beer with 19 is kinda off.

They are pretty hard with drinking and driving but more logical than in the USA. They routinely control drivers randomly and when you have more than the allowed blood alcohol level you automatically get fined and have your licence suspended for 4 weeks. If they catch you more than once both fines and walking time go up in exponential rates. Which I think is fine.

On the other hand nobody bothers you when you drive around with a beer in your hand and toast a cop car. They might give you a breathalizer test but as long as you´re under, no problem. I guess Germany is just a lot more relaxed about drinking in general.

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Unfortunately this causes an over stock in my beer fridge as I buy more than I can drink.

*invites himself over to cleanse off chazwickes overstock*

[Beaver]

Originally posted by Stahlsturm
[angry rant]I´m probably going to get crucified for this but I think this entire ID thing is laughable. I had my first beer with 14 and it was bought for me by my Dad. He always said that children should be used to alcohol in order to prevent all this secrecy and people going totally berzerk when the law allows them to drink.

The suicide and alcoholism rates are way elevated in countries with restrictive alcohol policy like the USA or all scandinavian countries compared to places where beer and wine are normal parts of everyday life. One can not help but notice that all restrictive countries had a strong protestant religious past as well and that past is still weighing heavily on the people.[/angry rant]

I think that European attitudes towards alcohol (and sex and violence) are much more common sense.

[Beaver]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Actually, I couldn't agree with you more, Stahlstrum. I'm 33 years old, and I have to say that I've probably just barely drank more beer SINCE I turned 21 than I had BEFORE. I'm sure a lot of the reason was because it wasn't legal for me to do so when I was a teenager. This concept of the "forbidden fruit" is pretty strong to me. Teenagers act like children most of the time, with rare flashes of the adults they will become... and that means oftentimes doing exactly what they were told not to do, whether it by parents, teachers, policemen, or politicians who pass weird laws. I'm not sure that this country will ever completely do away with a drinking age, but I live in a state where Pete Coors (yes, same guy) is running for US Senate, and one of the things that he's in favor of is lowering the drinking age to 18. I think that's more than fair, to be honest - the drinking age should reflect the voting age, the marriage age, and the age required to enter the military, not to mention the draft. If you take away the part of the law that says you can't do something until a certain age, then activities like "underage drinking" don't have the same look-what-I'm-getting-away-with appeal, and teenagers aren't doing something cool and daring by getting drunk anymore... they're just doing something that makes them act stupid.

I heard that Coors denied that. I think it was something that Schaffer was trying to slam him for.

But I do find it ridiculous that an 18 year old can die serving our country in the armed forces, but is not responsible enough to have a beer. :confused:

[fretlessman71]

I wish he wouldn't have... I'd support it in a heartbeat, and I don't even drink Coors!

But I can see where that would come across as self-serving, too... damn politics... I wonder if there's a way that he can make a donation to some org. for every beer sold to someone between 18-21 or something - something that would take away his profit margin. Then, if he wanted to support it on a matter of prudence, he couldn't be slammed for it. I dunno.... really, I hate politics. But I still like Beer! :D

[b3s]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
What a joy to live in a state with Blue Laws, eh? No liquor purchasing on Sunday. No car buying on Sunday. There are arguments on both sides of the issue, but I think it's crap.

oh, i think it's just a real pita, personally. there are a couple of things, though, that crack me up...i can still buy (bad) 3.2 beer in grocery stores on sundays, bars will sell you a six pack (at bar prices), normal days there are drive through paint stores (pardon my hayseedness, but i ain't nevuh seen nuthin like dat before!) -- i'm still waiting to be asked if i want that super-sized!

eastern OR really cracked me up: beer and wine can only be purchased in grocery stores (well, also drug stores), paint stores are only for hard alcohol. WTF? then i cross the border into eastern WA: beer is purchased at grocery stores, liquor and wine in paint stores, wine can also be purchased at special wine stores.

recent trip to PA to bury my grandfather: unless you want a case, gotta buy it at a bar...paint stores are more wholesale places in the part of PA i was in.

about the only thing i miss about WI is being able to get a variety pack of microbrews, my food shopping, and a bottle of gin for martinis all at the same place ;)

[b3s]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Actually, I couldn't agree with you more, Stahlstrum.

personally, i couldn't agree more, either. however, given the puritanical (and sick) society we live in over here, i'd rather have a kid carded and not served than have s/he go through the legal process.

<mode=rant>i still say that it's complete BS that the same person who can take a bullet for his country can't walk into a gin-mil and order a beer...while at the same time the budweiser real men of genius century award winner that sent that soldier to get shot at has underage daughters drinking in bars and getting slapped on the wrist for it.</mode>

i wonder if that girl in the csu frat house would have drank herself to death if this society was just a wee bit more tolerant of alcohol in lieu of creating a forbidden fruit syndrome.

[fretlessman71]

Yeah.... that happened just over a mile from our place. What a horrible thing... :(

[Beaver]

Originally posted by b3s
oh, i think it's just a real pita, personally. there are a couple of things, though, that crack me up...i can still buy (bad) 3.2 beer in grocery stores on sundays, bars will sell you a six pack (at bar prices), normal days there are drive through paint stores (pardon my hayseedness, but i ain't nevuh seen nuthin like dat before!) -- i'm still waiting to be asked if i want that super-sized!

I've seen some decent 3.2 beer in grocery stores - Great Divide and Tommyknocker and Breckenridge I think. I wonder if they make special batches of their product for it and how much they do.

[fretlessman71]

I can't imagine that the local brewers would waste a special batch on 3.2% stuff that's hardly going to sell anyway. Odds are they just cook it down after fermentation to get some of the alcohol out of it.

[wortchillergoal]

I want to throw in my thing about the age of 18. The serving in the forces is good but I look at something else as well. I comm from a small farming(dairy) area. Most people I graduated with went back and took over the family farm after school. A 18 year old kid working harder than some will ever do, feeding the world can't have a beer after plowing his fields on a hot summer day.

[HarkJohnny]

what's the big deal? so you have to hand a 2x3 card to the cashier who will look and hand it back. BFD!

i guess it's a hassle to you to give your insurance card to the doctor's office, or to get out the credit card to pay for gas, or even wake up in the morning and get out of bed... lazy bastards! get over yourself and just have it ready when you buy alcohol.

[fretlessman71]

Yep. There's two topics going on in this thread, and I'll reiterate both of mine here:

1) Drop the drinking age to 18 - there's really nothing to lose.

2) Get your dang card out - you have nothing to hide, right?

[Theakston]

Originally posted by HarkJohnny
what's the big deal? so you have to hand a 2x3 card to the cashier who will look and hand it back. BFD!

i guess it's a hassle to you to give your insurance card to the doctor's office, or to get out the credit card to pay for gas, or even wake up in the morning and get out of bed... lazy bastards! get over yourself and just have it ready when you buy alcohol.

So I guess tourists from overseas who lack such identification should not be allowed to drink while they are in the USA on vacation. That'll go down really well! :(

Seriously in places that depend a lot on tourists, people need to realize that this is a problem. They don't want to be carting their passport around with them everywhere they go (and some places don't even accept that as a valid ID). European driving licences typically don't show the owners age either, and far fewer people drive anyway - unlike in the USA people don't need to drive everywhere and, as it is expensive, they often don't get a licence until they are much older - if at all.

[Theakston]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Yep. There's two topics going on in this thread, and I'll reiterate both of mine here:

1) Drop the drinking age to 18 - there's really nothing to lose.

2) Get your dang card out - you have nothing to hide, right?

And yes drop the age to 18. My niece (from England) was not impressed that she couldn't celebrate her 18th birthday in the customary fashion as she was visiting me in the USA at the time.

[fretlessman71]

An identification card works just as well as a license... you mean to tell me nobody ever carries any sort of ID on a regular basis in other countries? It would seem to me that there's a solution to this that we're not seeing...

[Theakston]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
An identification card works just as well as a license... you mean to tell me nobody ever carries any sort of ID on a regular basis in other countries? It would seem to me that there's a solution to this that we're not seeing...

not in the UK they don't. And I think it is true for most European countries. There have been attempts to legislate for these cards but civil liberties issues always overpower them.

[Beaver]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Yep. There's two topics going on in this thread, and I'll reiterate both of mine here:

1) Drop the drinking age to 18 - there's really nothing to lose.

2) Get your dang card out - you have nothing to hide, right?

I wouldn't be opposed to eliminating the drinking age all together. Let parents be responsible for the parenting of minors.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Theakston
not in the UK they don't. And I think it is true for most European countries. There have been attempts to legislate for these cards but civil liberties issues always overpower them. OK, but if I lived there, and I was coming HERE, and I knew that I wanted to try some beer when I was over here, wouldn't it be to my advantage to get that ID card made just for the trip? Isn't it as simple as knowing you'd have to follow the rules of the country you're travelling to? I mean, what if you tried to drive with the yellow line to your right over here?

[noby]

As Theakston says, there is a similair situation in Ireland.
18 year old's may not have a drivers licence, or any sort of photo id card.

A couple of years ago they introduced a 'Garda id'. Basically, you go to your local police station with whatever necessary documentation, and they issue you with an id card.

The law now is, if you are between 18 and 21, you are legally required to have this id in a pub. If you are over 21, you don't need it. which leads to this ridiculous situation:

Teenager: A pint please
Barman: Can I see some id
Teenager: But I'm 22
Barman: Prove it.
Teenager: I don't have to, I'm over 21, I'm not legally required to carry id.
etc. etc......


I can remember people getting into clubs with a photo-copy of a birth cert!! Talk about easy-to-make fake id.



noby

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by noby


I can remember people getting into clubs with a photo-copy of a birth cert!! Talk about easy-to-make fake id.



noby Hence the situation the US finds itself in. We make them harder to copy every few years.

Regarding the 22 year old, he ought to keep his old ID in his wallet if he looks that young in the first place. Ever known someone who perpetually looked like they were 12? (Conan O'Brien on American late night TV comes to mind...) They KNOW they're going to be called on the carpet regarding their age, and instead of getting into an argument every time, just whip out the card that you don't have to carry anymore. Is it really that hard?

I understand about it being a violation of your civil liberties; I really do. It's just that people aren't trustworthy anymore, and that goes for pretty much everyone. It's a sad state of affairs... but as Bob Dylan said (and he's been quoted by so many), "The Times They Are A-Changin'."

[Theakston]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
OK, but if I lived there, and I was coming HERE, and I knew that I wanted to try some beer when I was over here, wouldn't it be to my advantage to get that ID card made just for the trip? Isn't it as simple as knowing you'd have to follow the rules of the country you're travelling to? I mean, what if you tried to drive with the yellow line to your right over here?

But it aint that simple to just "get that ID card made". There's no way I know of to get a USA ID unless you are going to live here. And even then it would have to be obtained after you arrived in the USA wouldn't it?
the only thing you can do is carry your passport and hope that they accept it (they often don't) and that you don't loose it or get it stolen while passing it around in a crowded bar after having a few.

[fretlessman71]

Does the US not accept a UK Identification? I know you're not required to have one there, but couldn't you still have one made there and carry it with you? I keep thinking there's something we're overlooking here...

[MeridianFC]

1. Drop drinking age to 18, agree.

2. Passports are supposed to be accepted as proof of ID. It's actually the one thing that the overwhelming number of jurisdictions will accept. There are exceptions, lord aren't there always, I believe Vermont or New Hampshire has some ridiculous in state only ID rule (this effects even other US citizens), but just about everywhere else should accept a passport. Remeber though any licensed establishment can refuse service to anyone.

[b3s]

my take on the alternate id thing...think about it like this, if i'm from the us and i go to, say, thailand, and, say, infract a law that is legal in the us and i get a caning...well, i should have known. or if, say, i'm from the us and i have a dwi (misdemeanor) and i want to go to canada (where it's a felony), i can't -- canada doesn't permit felons entry. this list could go on and on.

ergo, if i were from (fill in the blank, non-us country) i'd research what i'd need for id over here...and a passport is a valid form of id here.

that said...i've rarely been carded...and the only time has been when it is a no exception rule. irony is that many places in the denver-metro area card if a band is playing -- show up 45 minutes before the band sets up, no bouncer, no carding. weird.

[Stahlsturm]

Wow, I triggered quite the discussion here...

About getting out ID, no, of course it´s not such a big deal. What I questioned is the underlying paranoia about alcohol. What´s the big deal about a 15 year old having a beer ? It´s not like we´re all going to Hell for it.

About european IDs, I have frequent problems with my german ID card. Although it has all necessary info in german, french and english. I think it is because the USA are so provincial. The typical US paintshop employee get´s to see all kinds of US and maybe an occasional canadian license but with european papers he´s simply overtaxed. They are official documents of course and supposed to be accepted but how can one accept a paper as valid when one has never seen a valid ID from that place to begin with ?

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by b3s
my take on the alternate id thing...think about it like this, if i'm from the us and i go to, say, thailand, and, say, infract a law that is legal in the us and i get a caning...

That´s Singapore. In Thailand you get executed. :D

[b3s]

whatever :p

actually, i was going to edit it, but opted not to.

i thought that whole thing was funny...guy got a spanking and had to make a federal case out of it! same thing here probably would have gotten him 5 months in jail! if memory serves, it was theft.

[wortchillergoal]

A 79 year old woman wrote to a syndicated newspaper
column, Supermarket Shopper, and complained about our proofing policy. After it ran, several more people wrote saying the agreed with or were not bothered by the policy.

[unkle bik]

Originally posted by wortchillergoal
I agree Fret, but also the people complaining the most are the mid 30 to mid 40 crowd. I would not be surprised if this policy becomes the norm around the country in a few years.


It wouldn't surprise me that in a few years you will need a license to drink. A license that can be revoked depending on well you behaved yourself or a medical condition that would prohibit it.

[chazwicke]

Prohibit it...............prohibition?!

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by unkle bik
It wouldn't surprise me that in a few years you will need a license to drink. A license that can be revoked depending on well you behaved yourself or a medical condition that would prohibit it.

That´s where we´re going, yes. Civil rights are eroding everywhere.

[fretlessman71]

Prohibition didn't work the last time we tried it, and no self-respecting politician who values his voting contingent is going to suggest it again. I wouldn't hang up your tankards just yet, fellas.

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Prohibition didn't work the last time we tried it, and no self-respecting politician who values his voting contingent is going to suggest it again. I wouldn't hang up your tankards just yet, fellas.

Things have changed... You don´t need the majority of votes anymore to win an election :D

[b3s]

fret, familiar with the truman victory over dewey where dewey won the popular vote?

[chazwicke]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fretlessman71
[B]Prohibition didn't work the last time we tried it, and no self-respecting politician who values his voting contingent is going to suggest it again.


Don't count on it. Fret it will be framed as anti drunk driving or anti drug and alcohol issues and no politician will be able to vote against it. Or risk being accused of being in favor of drunk driving and such. I have heard that some National organizations now have their agenda of making the national limit .05 down from .08. That means no beer or glass of wine with dinner when dining out. I believe this is totally unreasonable but it's very tough to come out against drunk driving laws.

[Beaver]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Prohibition didn't work the last time we tried it, and no self-respecting politician who values his voting contingent is going to suggest it again. I wouldn't hang up your tankards just yet, fellas.

Things are swinging in that direction. .08 BAC, CSU just banned beer from football games and fraternities and sororities. I've seen almost no uproar about these things.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Beaver
Things are swinging in that direction. .08 BAC, CSU just banned beer from football games and fraternities and sororities. I've seen almost no uproar about these things. I don't think it's at all inappropriate to ban beer at CSU games given the recent events here and at CU in Boulder. I hope it won't be a permanent ban, but I think that sometimes you have to find a way to get people's attention. Campuses can ban alcohol and expel anyone found drinking on campus or anyone underage caught drinking at ALL if they so choose - there are no laws involved, since the student is there in and of their own choice. Nowhere is it written that the student has a right to attend that school, and they're free to go to another one instead. Kids in this country have been raised to believe that alcohol is a forbidden fruit, and that's why they seem to go crazy for it when it is made available to them. I firmly believe that if the alcohol purchasing and drinking laws were relaxed, and the penalties for illegal acts caused by someone drinking increased several times, that the desired result of MADD and all of those other whackjob organizations would be achieved.

[Beaver]

Our government seems quick to try to prohibit things rather than attack the root cause. I can see that happening with alcohol. I would much rather see them do what you suggest - relax laws regarding drinking and increase penalties for behavior that harms others.

[Beaver]

I understand that CSU has the right to do what they did, but I think it has the potential to make the problem worse. If kids can't keep alcohol at their residence, I think they will feel the need to drink more when they can get it.

[chazwicke]

Believe me, The neo prohibitionists are taking notes on the CSU stories. They are also closely watching the succesful tactics used by other groups such as those warring against smoking. (I'm a non smoker). They learn what works and is successful and employ those tactics in their war on alcohol. This is why I am sometimes hesitant to jump on any bandwagon with regards to other issues such as smoking. The neo probs. day is coming

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Beaver
I understand that CSU has the right to do what they did, but I think it has the potential to make the problem worse. If kids can't keep alcohol at their residence, I think they will feel the need to drink more when they can get it.
My feeling on that is the kids that are hellbent on breaking the rules of their school aren't as interested in learning in the first place. If I were forking over $10K a year to go to school, and I had to live on campus, you can bet I'd be doing my drinking elsewhere, and responsibly, too. (Guess that's why I never went to college! :D) And it wouldn't be an issue if they had already dealt with alcohol in a legal environment before they got to college, would it? I mean, wasn't the coolest thing about drinking, back while we were in school, the fact that we weren't supposed to? (And I mean before we discovered good beer...)

[Beaver]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Believe me, The neo prohibitionists are taking notes on the CSU stories. They are also closely watching the succesful tactics used by other groups such as those warring against smoking. (I'm a non smoker). They learn what works and is successful and employ those tactics in their war on alcohol. This is why I am sometimes hesitant to jump on any bandwagon with regards to other issues such as smoking. The neo probs. day is coming

Hey Chaz, has the CSU and CU stuff been in the national news?

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Believe me, The neo prohibitionists are taking notes on the CSU stories. They are also closely watching the succesful tactics used by other groups such as those warring against smoking. (I'm a non smoker). They learn what works and is successful and employ those tactics in their war on alcohol. This is why I am sometimes hesitant to jump on any bandwagon with regards to other issues such as smoking. The neo probs. day is coming I'd be lying if I said I had absolutely no problem with the law that prohibits smoking in public here in Ft. Collins... but I'd also be lying if I said that that WASN'T one of the main selling points on this town. If they ever repeal the law, we'll probably move.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Beaver
Hey Chaz, has the CSU and CU stuff been in the national news?

Yes. In fact GMA had that girl's parents on this morning. It has been reported on but maybe not to the same detail that your getting.

speaking of which......How bout that gosh darn CBS?

[fretlessman71]

Please tell me you're not surprised... I don't think that there is such a thing as fair and balanced reporting from ANYONE. We might as well give up on the idea and simply have our news sources identify their political leanings BEFORE they tell us what's what. (Where I come from, this is known as "Tell me where you sit before you tell me where you stand".)

There's only one thing that I believe anymore, and you can be sure it doesn't come from the Nightly News... :)

[DreamWeaver]

Originally posted by Beaver
Hey Chaz, has the CSU and CU stuff been in the national news?

I think Dan Rather reported that CSU /CU was going to stop selling beer at college games temporarily since most were too young to drink anyways and the recent problems to were blame.


Heraldo Rivera (sp?) would have dramatized it a bit more... Like: "Death, ..... ah,.... Destruction,........... ah, ... Mayhem....ah, ..... Inebriated drunken college kids, ah. ....... Colorado........ On the loose, terrorizing the ah,........ campus and the innocent victims of ... ah,...... brutal acts of violence. And I'm .......ah,........ caught in the middle with my life at risk! My brother the cameraman was just injured by a flying, ah.......... empty plastic beer cup and now requires medical attention! Oh woe is me, when will the useless, drunken, ah..... nonsense end?"

[fretlessman71]

ah..... what are you.... ah.... talking about? ;)

[DreamWeaver]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
ah..... what are you.... ah.... talking about?

I thought Beaver was asking about this CSU story (http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~417~2404164,00.html) and I was not replying for Chaz but wanted to reply that I also had heard the story on CBS, GMA & MSNBC. I added my usual twist of goofey to give account of the story but I maybe should have checked my sources and may have been duped by a 527 motivated anti-beer source. ;)

[chazwicke]

Very possible Dreamweaver. Lot of that going around these days. On BOTH sides. Keeps it entertaining. Most evenings lately I've had my tube tuned to MSNBC. Let's play Hardball!

[Steve16823]

Interesting... I guess I didn't realize that beer was sold in any NCAA venue.

Here at Penn State, you can BYOB to the parking lot to tailgate before (and after) the game (although KEGS of beer were banned a few years back), but no alcohol is permitted inside the stadium, although I suspect that alchohol is provided in the brand new private luxury boxes.

The only other college stadium i've been to in recent history was Illinois, and I don't remember then serving beer there either...

[wortchillergoal]

You cna get beer at SU football and basketball games. The only thing they do to regulate the drinking is stop selling during last quarter for basketball and at a certain time on the clock last quarter for football.

[unkle bik]

Originally posted by wortchillergoal
You cna get beer at SU football and basketball games. The only thing they do to regulate the drinking is stop selling during last quarter for basketball and at a certain time on the clock last quarter for football.

That beats Cleve. Browns stadium. Beer sales are stopped right after halftime.

[Stahlsturm]

If US kids would learn how to drink responsibly in the first place there would not be such discussion. Of course, when you try to catch up on a 5 year headstart a german kid would have within the first 2 weeks after your 21st birthday, then indeed disaster is bound to happen.

Legislation has never stopped and will never stop drinking and kids experimenting with whatever is out there. It´s time parents realized that and stop crying for the government to pass legislation that never can be fully enforced anyways and instead take it in their own hands to familiarize their kids with alcohol (and other things) in a civilized and responsible way.

Of course, the above being the hard way it´ll never happen so in 10 years from now we´ll probably buying our beer from the dealer on the street corner...

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Stahlsturm
Legislation has never stopped and will never stop drinking and kids experimenting with whatever is out there. It´s time parents realized that and stop crying for the government to pass legislation that never can be fully enforced anyways and instead take it in their own hands to familiarize their kids with alcohol (and other things) in a civilized and responsible way.Ideally, this should be the way it is with EVERYTHING in life, and not just alcohol... but I couldn't agree with you MORE on this issue. What murderer doesn't know that it's against the law to kill? What traffic violator isn't aware of the rules of the road? When something goes wrong in this country, people grumble, "There oughta be a law..." when they should be saying, "I know there's a law against that... there ought to be a REAL PENALTY."

Of course, the above being the hard way it´ll never happen so in 10 years from now we´ll probably buying our beer from the dealer on the street corner...
And we'll be stealing yeast from bakers and barley from fields that we have to sneak into in the dead of night just to make a gallon of homebrew! :D

[b3s]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
And we'll be stealing yeast from bakers and barley from fields that we have to sneak into in the dead of night just to make a gallon of homebrew!

maybe you, but if it even gets in the same zip code as that bad, i'm moving to a free-er country...like, say...china.

[chazwicke]

Save those cans of Blue Ribbon Malt Extract. History may repeat itself.