Open a liquor store?

[brewmonkey]

I have been kicking this idea around (like we all haven't?) for some time. In my town we do not seem to have a store that caters to the craft beer/wine people. Even though we have the brewery as well we are 10 minutes from 3 wineries, not one single place carries good beer. You can get the "generic" craft like Fat Tire but not the Tripple etc...

The nearest store with a selection is 30-45 minutes away and anytime I am there I see at least a few cars with tags from my county (we tag by county here).

I was thinking of something small where I would not need a huge floor space and have a good size reach in so that all beers are leaving at temp. Sadly I am sure that I would have to carry some of the macro crap if I was even thinking about breaking even.

Anyway, anyone else kick this around? What did you come up with?

[hops99]

I just bought a store (bakery/deli and some wine/beer) back in May, and increased the selection of beer and wine tenfold. It's been alot of fun, alot of hours, etc. but absolutely worth it. I'll PM you whatever you want to know...

[brewmonkey]

Check your PM's in a bit.

[Beaver]

Share your findings with the rest of us Brewmonkey!

[brewmonkey]

I will certainly do that. I am just starting out on this trek so I will be able to give a play by play of what I find out.

I know the biggest issue is location. I know of a deli (ironically) that just went under and there is not a store in that area selling alcohol. It is also right off the main drag through town as well as right across the street from the local Fort. While it may have been a bad spot for a deli seems ok for a liquor store.

[Beaver]

That would be cool to hear your updates. I've often kind of kicked that around. I don't think there's enough need for it in this area - there are already a lot of stores with great selections. But it would be fun (and I'm sure plenty of work!)

The other thing I kick around a lot is a book store (new or used) - same thing with being hit or miss and a lot of work and risk, but I'm a big book geek. :)

[newportstorm]

I've played with the idea in my mind for years now. Here's the thing though. Rhode Island is a huge light beer state. Miller Lite and Samuel Adams Light both launched their products here. We're a test market and breeding ground for light beer, unfortunately. There are a few good beer stores (that also move massive amounts of macros and booze) around but I'm not certain there is a demand for another one. In my mind there is always room for more good beer, but I'm not exactly impartial...

So, you've gotta ask yourself: if you have to drive 30-45 minutes to buy good beer in your area...why is that? If there is a demand for good craft beer in your town/county, why are no stores stepping up and filling that void. Are you (or others) asking for them to carry it and they refuse? Are they not willing to make room for better beer? Things to ponder before jumping into a bad situation. Keep us updated on how things work out.

Cheers!

[kevin]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Sadly I am sure that I would have to carry some of the macro crap if I was even thinking about breaking even.


Unfortunately that is probably very true, most of your sales would probably come for that yellow fizzy stuff...

by the way anyone see that Miller Lite commerical where they try to determine the better beers between Miller and Bud by looking at the color? Pretty funny!! :D

[brewmonkey]

There is a desire for the beer as evidenced by my time working in the brewery. I live in the same town and less then 1 mile from the pub.

Until recently blue laws prevented many of the craft beer from coming into the state due to alcohol % requirements. My city has opted for home rule and done away with some of the BS from the state to include allowing Sunday sales as well as grocery stores being allowed to carry mor then 3.2 beer.

The military installation I live less then 1 mile from is full of people looking for the craft beers from either local breweries or their own states brands.

The reason I would say that no one has done it sooner is that this is by and large a retirement community (military & DOJ) and for many years this was a diehard AB town.

The brewery helped shift a lot of that in the 10 years it has been open and exposed many people to beer other then macro swill. We also have a local college while not very big at the moment it is growing and has recently changes it's status from college to university.

Factor all these things in and I truly believe that it can be done in this town and done well. In addition to the store I would get connected with some of the local more upscale dining establishments and organize food & beer pairings/tastings etc... You know get out there and build the name.

The one biggest threat to it would come from the military side and that is the Class VI store (liquor) on post. Being a federal property they are exempt from some of the laws that will bind me as well they have the purchasing power of the AAFES behind them. I would need to cruise their shelves to see what they have and do not have. I know they have a large import section but the last time I was there they had limited craft section.

Again, if anyone has any ideas or feels I might be overlooking something fire away.

[chazwicke]

Northern VA, DC and Maryland have very good stores and very good selections. It is because this area is very affluent and there are gourmet tastes that shops cater to. There was a retailer that sold many types of beer and wine and they opened up a chain of stores. The ones in our area are still prospering. However some of the shops that they opened were in other less affluent counties and those have been closed. They could not support the gourmet products that these shops carried. So it goes back to that old adage: LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. Better beer stores are usually supported by upscale areas or neighborhoods.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by chazwicke
LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. Better beer stores are usually supported by upscale areas or neighborhoods.

That is one thing we also were looking for. We want to be in the old downtown area which has undergone some major renovations in the last 5 years. The area chamber and several other organizations have been pushing hard to attract "boutique" shops through incentives like tax abatements and managed lease to own kind of deals. It appears to be working and they just converted an old warehouse into lofts and 3 more buildings are in the process of renovations. I think the newest building in this area is about 100 years old. I know my house is the newest on my side of the street and it is 110.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
I was thinking of something small where I would not need a huge floor space and have a good size reach in so that all beers are leaving at temp. Sadly I am sure that I would have to carry some of the macro crap if I was even thinking about breaking even.

This, I like. I've heard of places (LiquidSolutions, Chevy Chase Liquors, etc) that will display one bottle of each style and keep everything else "on ice". Great idea, imo. We have lots of stores in New England that have huge selections, with most of it being room temp, on the shelf, under the lights. Keeping it dark and cool would most definitely improve shelf life and quality.

Not sure how to go about it - one huge walk in, or a warehouse-type order system (take a tag# of the beer you want). The concept might take time to catch on, but I like it for the beers sake.

Cheers!

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by newportstorm
This, I like. I've heard of places (LiquidSolutions, Chevy Chase Liquors, etc) that will display one bottle of each style and keep everything else "on ice". Great idea, imo. We have lots of stores in New England that have huge selections, with most of it being room temp, on the shelf, under the lights. Keeping it dark and cool would most definitely improve shelf life and quality.

Not sure how to go about it - one huge walk in, or a warehouse-type order system (take a tag# of the beer you want). The concept might take time to catch on, but I like it for the beers sake.

Cheers!

That is exactly what my wife and I discussed. Having the bottle on display and the rest in the cooler.

I am also checking into the mix-match laws here. I know some places allow you to split a pack up which is what I want to do so that first timers with that beer are not stuck with something they may not like as well for people like myself who might grab a 6'er for the weekend with each beer being different.

If this is something I actually get into doing I will host a realbeer gathering and we will celebrate another notch in the craft brewing stick.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by newportstorm
This, I like. I've heard of places (LiquidSolutions, Chevy Chase Liquors, etc) that will display one bottle of each style and keep everything else "on ice". Great idea, imo. We have lots of stores in New England that have huge selections, with most of it being room temp, on the shelf, under the lights. Keeping it dark and cool would most definitely improve shelf life and quality.

Not sure how to go about it - one huge walk in, or a warehouse-type order system (take a tag# of the beer you want). The concept might take time to catch on, but I like it for the beers sake.

Cheers!

Chevy Chase does indeed do it like this. They have cases in the basement and a large walk in refridge. They have single bottles out on display and they will get the beer for you after you tell them what you want. It is a great beer resource for the DC area.

Also you would need to be mindful of florescent lights in coolers. they can also have a detrimental effect on beer.

[chazwicke]

Also you can buy one bottle, six case whatever quantity that you want. Ive been to many paint stores where they put out empty sixpack holders and you can mix and match your beers and use the six pack holders to carry them.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Chevy Chase does indeed do it like this. They have cases in the basement and a large walk in refridge. They have single bottles out on display and they will get the beer for you after you tell them what you want. It is a great beer resource for the DC area.

Also you would need to be mindful of florescent lights in coolers. they can also have a detrimental effect on beer.

This always confused me. I always thought that the coating on the inside of a fluorescent bulb filtered out nearly all of the UV light. Maybe I assumed...

Also, I believe LiquidSolutions has motion detector lights so the light is only on when someone is in the cooler. Though I guess, in theory, that if you stood dumbfounded, drooling over the selection for too long, you could end up in the dark :p

Cheers!

[fretlessman71]

Nah... the drooling would set off the motion detectors. ;)

[toneyc]

Slightly off topic: When I did my community service for my DWI, I worked at the city books on tape library. They had this huge warehouse that had row upon row of floor to ceiling shelves just wide enough to push a cart down and the lights were motion activated. I would walk down a row and the light ahead would come on and the light behind would go off. Eerie, very X-files-ish. I never stood still long enough for the light above me to go off, though.

:D
Toney.

[DreamWeaver]

Originally posted by toneyc
When I did my community service for my DWI, I worked at the city books on tape library.

Toney.


:D @ Toney. Sorry.
I won't drink and drive any more but when I lived in Boca Raton, FL. ( Back in 81-82) The bars stayed open till 5am. I was real lucky they did'nt have me cuttin weeds with a cycle in the swamp like a friend of mine.






BM,
I'm searching some info I'll post later.

[DreamWeaver]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
I have been kicking this idea around (like we all haven't?) for some time.
Anyway, anyone else kick this around? What did you come up with?

Usually when someone comes to me and says they want to start a business and gives me some idea of what they want, I first try to toss the negatives at them to see if they have the internal drive needed to continue. This gives me a clue as to if they are serious or just grasping. I grew up hearing a saying that applies to work... "Find a job you love and you will never work a day in your life." Knowing your desire for the Micro-Brewing Industry, it would be a shame to lose you to a Liquor Store. OK, end of negatives.

Are you talking Beer & Wine or Liquor also? Turn-key operations may be the way to go. Sometimes in a bind, the previous owners will help finance. I like Hops99's idea of a bakery with a beer selection. I think he will have great success.

Here in Ohio the State is in control of "State Liquor Stores." I had a friend in Southwest, MO that had a pizza place that did well and he sold beer & wine but I can't find him/it now. Can you make a pizza? A lot of $$$ in the pizza business. Or maybe a Drive-Thru Carry out? I'd keep some of these ideas open while looking for that Location. Once you get a better idea of a business, I'd find a business consultant in your area that will answer some of your specific questions over the phone and maybe if he/she see's your interest, might be a great help. Also you can consult other owners of a similar business. As long as they know you are not going to be a threat to their area/business, most owners like to talk shop.

I see you as a Brew Pub owner. ... BrewMonkey's KC Style Pizza, Rib's & Ale.

This is going to be a long thread.
;)

[brewmonkey]

I am not one who is going to leave the pub business at all. I am also currently working with a partner on a pub concept. Like most though the money is not there yet. In the meantime my thoughts go to opening a liquor store that caters to the craft drinkers. While I would carry a wide variety of brands including the swill I would emphasize the craft beers and wines.

If I do a pub in this town it would have to be something other then BBQ. The KC area is over-populated with BBQ joints and american fare. Not sure what exactly we would serve yet but I have the chef already picked out. I would like to do something ala The Bitter End in Austin. I like that place.

We also have a few names picked out as well as the name for the brewery.

I made some calls to Topeka today and should have some light reading heading this way. :D

edit:

I will also have 1 possibly 2 fermenters in a room seperate from the others with it's own ventilation system. My plan is to keep a Belgian beer on year round maybe 2 during the Holidays.

[fretlessman71]

Hmmm... The Bitter End sounds like a bad rump roast or something!

Hey, Brewmonkey - I think I found the brewing system for your new digs here! (http://addabrewpub.com/brewing-procedure.html) :D

[hops99]

I like Hops99's idea of a bakery with a beer selection.

Yeah, we're the anti-Atkins store!

Some more random thoughts: I'd throw caution to the wind on the single bottle display/beer in the back cooler idea. From a beer geek's perspective (i.e. all of us on the board), it sounds great. From a business owner's perspective, I think it presents several challenges. Convenience, Price, Quality, Merchandising, and Service are everything in retail - and you're potentially knocking three of those characteristics out of the loop. It's certainly not convenient for the consumer to wait until someone brings their beer out to them (sure, WE on the board wouldn't mind, but to joe 6-pack who stops in after work - he wants to grab his beer and get the heck out of there). Service might suffer, too, for the same reasons - think about a busy Saturday afternoon with 10 customers in line, all waiting for their beer to come out of the cooler.... Most important (to me) is the fact that you'd be cutting out the merchandising angle. Displays sell - whether it's Bud or Hoegaarden, and you'd be potentially killing impulse sales - which are an integral part of beer revenue in retail. I'll invoke the Service Merchandise case study - they tried the same approach relative to merchandising, and eventually went bankrupt. Customers wanted to grab their purchases and get the heck out of there. I'm not saying it couldn't be effective (and in fact, it could be a positive differentiator for you) - but be careful. Listen to the customer - heck, send out some marketing surveys to get feedback if it's at all possible.

The food pairing/beer tasting idea is a great one - I don't have my tasting license yet (it's coming in about a month), but consumer education is the key to success in an upscale store (whether it's beer, wine. cheese, specialty grocery, etc.). As a matter of fact, I try to sample several products in the store each day, and when my tasting license does arrive, I'm planning to have both set beer tastings (ex. Fridays at 7, or Saturdays at 2), and spontaneous tastings 7 days a week.

Make sure you have enough budgeted for ongoing marketing your first year. While I believe word of mouth is the best marketing (and it's free!) you'll need to keep your business visible on a weekly basis - whether it be through conventional means (i.e. local newspaper, radio, etc.) or stealth (set up a customer e-mail database and market through weekly newsletters - let customers know what's going on in the store, what's new, etc.)

Listen to your customers. Be patient. If you've got a lady who is a regular shopper, and she wants you to carry Stroh's 12 pack cans, do it (as painful as it may be). I could tell you some good stories about how I've had to bite my tongue numerous times this summer when customers talk about/request crap beers and wines. You know the drill - "What? You don't carry Miller High Life 24 oz. cans? What kind of beer store ARE you?", or "Who the hell would pay $10 a sixer for that French pussy beer?" (DFH Raison). Funny stuff.

Last but not least, DreamWeaver hit the nail on the head. Make sure this is a labor of love - it is for me, but working 7 days a week (most weeks) does take a toll on my family (I'm married with three young kids), so it's a challenge juggling things at times. Still, every time I see a new customer in the store shopping, or certainly every time I see craft beer in someone's cart, it's just a great feeling - it validates all of the hard work!

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by hops99
...Listen to your customers. Be patient. If you've got a lady who is a regular shopper, and she wants you to carry Stroh's 12 pack cans, do it (as painful as it may be). I could tell you some good stories about how I've had to bite my tongue numerous times this summer when customers talk about/request crap beers and wines. You know the drill - "What? You don't carry Miller High Life 24 oz. cans? What kind of beer store ARE you?", or "Who the hell would pay $10 a sixer for that French pussy beer?" (DFH Raison). Funny stuff.....

Hey Hops - you ever think about giving the macro-swill requestor a "special one time" price break on a 12 pk of PU - priced down to Miller High Life and see if they like it and come back for more? Just a thought....

Give 'em one these deals --- "I'm so sure you'll like this better that I'll give you this 12 pk for the price of that crap you want."-kinda deals(and sell it to him at cost). If the guy cames back then you have gained a customer that you wouldn't have had anyway.

[hops99]

Hey Hops - you ever think about giving the macro-swill requestor a "special one time" price break on a 12 pk of PU - priced down to Miller High Life and see if they like it and come back for more? Just a thought....

I can't - it's illegal in Ohio. The state controls all liquor pricing (beer, wine, spirits), so there's a state minimum a retailer can't go below (otherwise I'd lose my license and be fined umpteen dollars).

However, I certainly "beervangelize" all I can, and once in a while I'm able to trade up a customer - which is also a big part of the fun. Tastings will play a large role in trading up also, and another important marketing tool I didn't mention earlier - singles. I do have several single bottles for sale which is great for the consumer. Instead of risking $9 on a sixer of Bell's Java Stout, they can spend $1.75 on a single bottle. If they don't like it, they're not pissed for having wasted $9.

[fretlessman71]

Yeah, but if they can't crush the can on their forehead after they slam it and belch they're not gonna be too interested. OTOH, if they try that with an empty bottle, it just might clean up the gene pool a little bit... :D

[Theakston]

Originally posted by hops99

Last but not least, DreamWeaver hit the nail on the head. Make sure this is a labor of love - it is for me, but working 7 days a week (most weeks) does take a toll on my family (I'm married with three young kids), so it's a challenge juggling things at times. Still, every time I see a new customer in the store shopping, or certainly every time I see craft beer in someone's cart, it's just a great feeling - it validates all of the hard work!

More power to you!
keep up the great work!

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Fast_Eddy
Hey Hops - you ever think about giving the macro-swill requestor a "special one time" price break on a 12 pk of PU - priced down to Miller High Life and see if they like it and come back for more? Just a thought....

Give 'em one these deals --- "I'm so sure you'll like this better that I'll give you this 12 pk for the price of that crap you want."-kinda deals(and sell it to him at cost). If the guy cames back then you have gained a customer that you wouldn't have had anyway.

Beware! This guy would be back next week looking for another discount and on any of his subsequent visits as well.

[brewmonkey]

First rule I learned in the business is you should avoid discounting your everyday products. If you are offering it one time they will expect to see it again and again. It is why all our beer specials were seasonals only.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Beware! This guy would be back next week looking for another discount and on any of his subsequent visits as well.

I agree and disagree. Once he's back then it's a matter of how good a salesman you are. Also getting him(a guy who wouldn't normally be back) back to the store is very important - if he's not in the store you're not going to be able to sale to him.

[chazwicke]

True and if he feels he "knows" you he will bring others in to flaunt his connection and if he is alone he will be more apt to take your suggestions. But some of those guys are only looking for the deal. Back in the 80's I knew a few liquor store owners in DC who would give me breweriana. Posters, signs, glasses, lights and such. I was a good customer though and was in those shops several times a week. Always with buddies or roomates in tow. So he made some good $$$. I have never quibbled about paying for good beer.

If I owned a bar, I'd have a lot of friends who would be in there drinking. Once in a great while I'd give em a freebie but I'd go broke giving them discounts and freebies all the time.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by chazwicke
...

If I owned a bar, I'd have a lot of friends who would be in there drinking. Once in a great while I'd give em a freebie but I'd go broke giving them discounts and freebies all the time.

Yeah - see - once in a while is what I was talking about. It's an incentive to come back. Even if you lose the guy the next time so what. For every few you lose you're bound to gain a convert and good customer.

Really though it strikes at a deeper question: "Does the average swill drinker drink beer for price/(unit volume alcohol) or do they drink beer because they like it?" I'm sure the answer is in between the two questions - but towards which side is of interest. Further towards the "like it" side and they're more convertable - towards drunkeness and it's futile.

[brewmonkey]

I would say that your average one goes for price. I saw it in the pub many times. When I first took over the brewery they had bud light and coors light on tap (dont get me started) and it sold for the same price as our pints.

On Wednesday all our seasonal beers were $2.50 a pint while we did not discount any flagship brands or swill. I would check the reports in the morning and see that macro sales dropped drastically while our sales in craft went up on that night.

We did the same thing for pitchers of beer during monday night football and again craft went up while the others went down.

I hung around the bar on some of the nights to see what was happening and I will be damned if I did not catch die hard "I'll never drink that crap you make" people drinking the "crap" they swore they would not. When asked why it usually came right back to it was the cheapest thing.

I finally convinced the owners to let me have the last 2 taps, giving me a total of 12 beers on tap, and only selling swill in bottles.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
...I did not catch die hard "I'll never drink that crap you make" people drinking the "crap" they swore they would not. When asked why it usually came right back to it was the cheapest thing...

Now that's a damn shame.

[chazwicke]

Agreed.