Open a brewery?

[Bruno_78]

A friend of mine that owns a restaurant wants me to make beer for him to serve. I've looked into some of what this would involve, but I have a few questions.

Besides the usuals of starting a business (permits, federal ID, etc) I figure I would need to find a place to brew, since I couldn't do it out of my home.

Also, I would need some sort of kegging setup, that is unless I could just provide him with 5 gallon cornies, but I'm not sure if that's allowed.

Next, I would need a system large enough to brew larger quantities of beer. Any suggestions on where I might find something like this?

Then I would need to get set up with some wholesale brewing supply. I've found a few on the web, Crosby and Baker and Mid America Brewing were the one's so far.

Finally, I would need to practice to get my beers to a level where they could be served. I think I can handle this part, I'm always eager to practice.

Some of you guys who have experience here, is there anything I'm missing? Am I crazy for thinking about this? Am I getting in over my head?

[brewmonkey]

In addition to permis you would need to post your brewers ond with the ATF, recipes must also be approved by the ATF (statement of process).

Mid America Brewing is in Kasota MN and they are know knwon as Brewers Supply. They were recently purchased by Rahr malting and Todd Ashman is working as their staff brewer right now. Not sure about there delivery area though. I used them exclusively for grain and know that before the buyout they were limited in distro. You should also check out www.bevbuy.com They have a complete lineup of products for brewers including POS as well they are an ordering portal for Brewers Supply.

North American Brewing Supply (NABS) is one supplier of used equipment but you should also check with manufacturers to see what they can provide. I would suggest calling Rob at Premier Stainless in San Marcos CA. They did our addition as well as some work for other brewers I know. They equipment is excellent quality ad the price was perfect. Not the same as used but not as expensive as some other companies like DME or JV Northwest.

I am sure as soon as I finish my morning pot of coffee I will have some more for you.

[Bruno_78]

Please keep it coming. This thought has always been in the back of my mind since I started homebrewing, but I'm getting really excited about it now. I think in time it could be a reality, so any info would help.

[brewmonkey]

No problem, hopefully once the coffee kicks in not only will I be able to give you more info, I might even be able to spell all the words I use correctly. :rolleyes: D'oh!

[Bruno_78]

I do have a specific question, about insurance. does a brewery have to guard against someone drinking too much of their product and getting in an accident?

I'm thinking about looking into gov't grants (you know, like that crazy guy on TV with the question marks on his suit?). You think the gov't would give me money to make beer?

[YamahaXS]

Do you have to have the ATF license if you are not selling/distributing across state lines?


Also, is the $2500 fee associated with the ATF license annual or one-time?

[Stodbrew]

You have to have permits from the ATF no matter what size you are and no matter how close or far your distribution. They want their tax money.

There are many great used equipment suppliers out there. Brewmonkey already mentioned NABS. There's also Ager Tank and Equipment.

As far as getting set up for wholesale, call the supplier directly. Call Hopunion, Yakima Chief, or any other hop supplier. Same thing with malt.

It's not easy to get a brewery up and running, but it is very rewarding. Good luck and if there's anything you need, I'd be more than happy to help any way I can.

Steve

[Bruno_78]

Indiana alcohol and tobacco commission requires a $500 brewers permit for any brewery producing less than 20,000 barrels a year.

Thanks for the suppliers names, if there are any others you can think of, for malt, yeast, other supplies, please let me know. Thanks for all your help already. I'm going to start looking at these companies tonight.

Thanks again, guys.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Bruno_78
I do have a specific question, about insurance. does a brewery have to guard against someone drinking too much of their product and getting in an accident?

I'm thinking about looking into gov't grants (you know, like that crazy guy on TV with the question marks on his suit?). You think the gov't would give me money to make beer?

I do believe that depends on the state you live in. With any kind of liquor/beer operation you probably do leave yourself open to some liability when it comes to guest intoxication. Best way to hedge that though is to have ALL your staff attend alcohol control classes as often as needed. Never skimp on training for bar/waitstaff, they should attend the alcohol class as part of their certification/yearly training just like they will most likely have to attned a state sponsored food handlers course.

As far as insurance policies, I do not know who or how many companies provide insurance of that nature but contacting the Association of Brewers may be of some help. www.beertown.org

http://www.whaleninsurance.com/ is a common carrier in the industry that I do know of, but not sure about their rates.

Other agencies to look into would be the Master Brewers Association of America (MBAA) and the Brewers Association of America (BAA). They should have some information on allied trade members.

Other places to look would include professional brewers guilds. I now Oregon has a rather active guild and almost all areas where there is a good concentration of breweries you will find some type of guild.

[Bruno_78]

Boy, there sure is a lot of stuff out there. How would I decide on what size to go with. Start small and expand later? or get the big stuff so I have the capability?

[DreamWeaver]

I am doing the same research for a friend/acquaintence that wants to sponsor me in his bar. This is my field... business research. I will share any info I get with the forum. My sponsor is not realizing the depth of the situation. He just wants beer...now. I've located some used equipment but legal issues are in waiting. That takes a good lawyer. Everything has to be on paper... I'm working on that. Brew on site is what we are looking at not a brewery. My capitol is limited at this time and I don't want to work for just anybody. This guy has a history of selling to minors. I want everything to be within the law. And if I see this is a lost cause, & not profitable, I will stop my endeavor with this guy.

[brewmonkey]

Determining size of the brewhouse is a task in itself. You need to decide how much you plan to sell over the year, figure how many times you want to brew and then figure in some room to grow.

Basically I would suggest that unless you plan on selling more then 1500bbls a year you should go with 7-10bbls. With that you would have several 7-10 bbl fermenters and a few 14-20 (double batches) fermenters. More then 1500bbls it is a jump to a 15bbl system.

[Bruno_78]

That's great, that's exactly what I was thinking. After looking at some of the sites you guys suggested, 7-10bbls seemed like it would be perfect for me.

It looks like there are two main options for heat: steam or direct fire. Any input on either of these?

[Steve16823]

Bruno,

Regarding your question about liability. Even if you are in a state, like Pennsylvania, where the people who sell the alcohol may be held liable for the actions of their patrons, remember that the operation that SERVES the customer has this liability, not the brewer. And you mentioned you were going to brew beer to serve at someone elses' restaurant, so you would have no liability regarding the serving of the products. Unless, of course, your brew is so bad that it kills someone ;).

-Steve

P.S. Keep in mind i'm not a lawyer (are there any lawyers here?) and I often have no idea what i'm talking about.

[brewmonkey]

Options for heat all depend on how much you want to spend. I had an electric kettle with steam jackets as a back up. I hated it with a passion!!!

The boiler was undersized and the immersion heater got in the way of the whirlpool all the time.

[DreamWeaver]

Something like this set-up (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11876&item=3830895458&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW) looks pretty tempting and the price is in my range, though I usually get sniped at the last minute and don't want to get into any bidding wars.

Bruno? Did ya get my botched PM reply? or email?

[brewmonkey]

Actually that is something I would stear clear of. Go to http://www.nabrewing.com/products.shtml if you want to look for good used equipment. I know this guys and they have a good reputation in the business. They will also help secure financing if that is a route you want to go.

They have a pretty cool little 2BBL system I have had my eye on for sometime. I would love to grab one and put it in a small shop to get started on some recipes and very limited local stuff. Do some 1/6th BBL's to get my name back out while I finish up the finance issues I am wading through.

[YamahaXS]

I saw in a recent copy of Zymagurgy a list of the top 100 or 50 breweries and their volumes for the last 3 years. It's an interesting article and relevent to the topic so you might want to pick it up.

[brewmonkey]

"The New Brewer" is put out by the IBS, which is an armof the AOB just like the AHA which puts out "Zymurgy". "The New Brewer" does a spring review of the last years production of each member brewery as well as the previous 4 years to compare it. It usually comes out in the May issue, it would probably be a better issue then the Zymurgy IMHO because the top 50/100 pubs are all doing in the 1K bbl+ range and there are a ton of little guys doing less then 800bbl's a year.

[DreamWeaver]

I've been eyeing that 2bbl system for a few weeks also. I am still going to watch the ebay auction. Lots of stuff for cheap. Bigger than my project calls for but can do smaller batches. This is pert near over my head but I think I can fake it at that price. If all else fails I gottsa mashtun hot tub.

I've convince my project sponsor to let me brew a few batches of my House Favorite American Light Ale and since he is under alcohol permits with his business, advertise a special Experimental Free Homebrewed Live Beer Day and see if it floats. No need going any further with this project if his clientel wants Mud Lite only.

My brother-in-law is telling me he can "roll" copper and make me any size equipment I want. But, this is the same guy that about killed us both cutting/welding my Hoff-Stevens Keg. :eek:

[Fast_Eddy]

So how is this coming along?

[brewmonkey]

Go over to probrewer.com and check out some of the ads they have. You can pick up a complete brewhouse any size pretty much from a 2bbl on up to 100's of bbl's. They usually have good deals on a complete breweries where you get the brewhouse, fermenters and serving tanks. Just remember, a complete brewhouse is NOT a complete brewery. A brewhouse will consist of the Mash/Lauter tun, Kettle & hot liquor tank. Sometimes they might have it with a cold liquor tank. A complete brewery is all you will need to get going.

No matter what way you go make sure that at least one of your fermenters is a double batch and that they all have cones. Do not fall for any of this dish bottom crap they call fermenters. While they do work you will not be able to harvest yeast from them and beer loss in primary is higher then a uni-tank.

[Bruno_78]

My venture is coming along. I'm looking into zoning and those types of regulations right now. By the way, does anyone here have any experience in getting money for a small business?

[orb]

Bruno-Hey....I got a similiar sit in Wash State. A couple of Yuppie Restaurants want to sell my Beer. This is what I found out: If I sold it by the Bottle, each bottle HAD TO HAVE A LABEL. That LABEL, Fun to design to a point, had to include mandatory Govt. health warnings....Don't drink when pregnant or voting... Easier to give them kegs ( They deal with the warnings), Plus, sales tax for the state was by 5 gallons, not 12 OZ. Easier to assess. I would only have to move up from 5 Gallon batches to 20.No big deal. Here, all I would need is a City Biz License ($35), State master Biz License ($50), and I would brew on premise of the Restaurant and they would deal with the ATF.....Fair since I was making money for them............Jeff. allthegoodnamesaregone@hotmail.com

[brewmonkey]

Orb, check your PM's.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Bruno_78
By the way, does anyone here have any experience in getting money for a small business?

I have a friend who does (or doesn't), he tried opening a brew-pub a few years ago and solicited loans from the government for a small business - they didn't want to have anything to do with a restaurant. He never opened a pub.

Not an attempt to rain on a parade, just a fair warning on what might be ahead.

Again, my fingers are crossed for your success!

S.

[brewmonkey]

Best bet to get money from the SBA for this would be to incorporate and have a female as the majority owner and CEO/President. I know it is playing the card but if you want them to listen that will get their attention. When we incorporated (my wife and I) we did it with her as the majority shareholder and CEO. When we first started talking to the SBA they perked right up when they heard that.

Where we got derailed was they were willing to work with us but they wanted to see matching funds from another source. So know I am on a capital raising mission. Problem there is what is a share worth and how much are you willing to "sell" to investors. My beef is that we remain the largest shareholder so that no one else can pull the rug out so to speak.

[DreamWeaver]

Lots of good info coming in! I can add a bit just for thought.

As for getting financed, depending on if you are going to contract brew or brew on premises for your restaurant owner, (I think you mentioned brewing for a restaurant?) you'll need to put all of your business plans on paper and either take it to a bank (call for appointment), or find investors or even let the restaurant owner worry about financing and permits. Incorporating is a great ice breaker for loan institutions.

You'll need to have everything from A-Z, as complete of a report as you can with all of your intentions including start-up cost, legality, overhead, employees, insurance, projected earnings, ect. Then go see a banker or investment firm that will probably reject your financing request. Which will prolly happen the first time. This gives youa chance to ask why, or what you could have done different. Then when the pressure is off, before you leave the banker, ask them why you were rejected and take notes. Your up coming trip will help if you ask alot of questions at brewpubs you are visiting. Most seem like they will share info with you as most craft brewers or even restaurant owners have a passion for their business and love to talk shop. Get rejected 3 times and then go to the Small Business Ass'n for Indiana.

I know it seems like they will be asking you to go get the wicked witch's broom but persistance will pay off. Discouragement is inevitable but is part of the business world.

As for my project, I will be brewing and giving some of my brews for a tasting to see if it has any market.

I watched the eBay auction until the bitter end and it had no bids! Seemed like a lot of equipment for cheap but 7bbl was a bit big for this time. I had the wife convinced that even if it was too big, we coulda at least had a 2ppl hot tub!
:D

[Stodbrew]

It's funny how many people will say they want to invest in your brewery. But when it comes time to pony up the cash, about 90% of them suddenly are no longer interested. So, if you are planning on using a number of different investors, make sure you have more than you think you'll need.

[billy frank]

Lots of good info here.

If you go with 7-10bbl brew house and your demand starts to increase you can always go to bigger fermenters and batch brew. This will enable you to adjust your brews gravities and such to remain consitant.

Is this restaraunt going to serve your beer under their name or yours? I am just curious as to what rights the restaraunt will have to your beer and recipes. Something to think about.

Good luck,
Billy

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by billy frank
Lots of good info here.

If you go with 7-10bbl brew house and your demand starts to increase you can always go to bigger fermenters and batch brew. This will enable you to adjust your brews gravities and such to remain consitant.

Is this restaraunt going to serve your beer under their name or yours? I am just curious as to what rights the restaraunt will have to your beer and recipes. Something to think about.

Good luck,
Billy

That is how we went. We started with a 5bbl brewery and eventually added a 20bbl fermenter for the more popular beers. Took up almost the identical footprint of the smaller 7bbl tanks but doubled the capacity of our fermentation space.

[billy frank]

Wow did you guys go into one fermenter with 4 brews? Did you space them out over 2 brew days or do them all at once?
We used to brew 2 30bbl batches and go into a 60 bbl fermenter and then blend 4 brews from the 2 fermenters into one big conditioning vessel. It was good for consistency but real tiring brewing the same beer 4 times in a row over 2 days. We were a production brewery though and not a brew pub.

I think it is definately a better way to go with the larger fermenters if you have a good flagship beer that needs to remain consistant. Also just because you have a 10 bbl brew house does not mean you have to brew to bbl's. You could brew less as long as you cover the steam jackets or heat source.

Good luck,
Billy

[brewmonkey]

I would brew 3-4 days in a row and knock out on top of the last batch. It was generally used for my wheat beer which was the best seller and also the base for the Raspberry wheat. I would send 15 bbls of wheat to serving and then the last 5 would be made into our raspberry wheat by adding the fruit during transfer to serving. If I timed it right I could then brew my Pils and have it around all summer.

I was the only one in the brewery and with that little 5bbl system I was cranking about 500bbls a year. For my first 2 years it was a keg only operation and had 12 beers on tap. Talk about an ass kicker!!! We got 5 serving tanks during my 3rd year and that really allowed me to do more.

[billy frank]

Yeah I would definately say that was an ass kicker. Especially when you consider the cellar work also.

Billy

[brewmonkey]

I certainly spent a lot of time doing cold side but you know as i have told many people, a bad day brewing beats a good day of anything else I can think of. Even when I had 15+ hour days I always left feeling good and anxious to get back the next day to finish another project. Being in a small brewhouse I had a lot of direct contact with the guests and I really enjoyed it. My wife also loved the job, nothing like having your spouse come home always in a good mood after work.

[DreamWeaver]

Well, the eBay auction is back up & a few hundred dollars cheaper for first bid. Brewmonkey, ... stop me! Any reasons why I should "stear clear." Seems alot of equipment for cheap. How small of a batch would be feasible in this 7 bbl system? I wanna bid! Anyone wanna go halfers? For parts maybe?

I can relate to keeping a truck or brewery going. Sounds like you had the homework down tho with brewing recipies in order and thats what I call real BrewHouse Efficiency"! I was in the Trucking Industry for a long time and we had a saying "If the wheels ain't going around, nobody is making any money." So a small system would have to show itself worthy of a profit.

[brewmonkey]

Something just does not seem right. Very rarely when a pub goes under do they not list there equipment with Ager Tanks, NAB's or Sound Brewing. Why is he selling it THAT cheap? It looks like the company who built it is no longer in business so good luck getting parts to fix it. If you have a problem and need parts you will have to have the piece custom built and that will cost big money.

It has an immersion heater which are garbage. I speak from experience, my last kettle had an immersion heater in it. How big is the heater and what kind of power will it require? Direct fire or steam heat is a better and cheaper way to go.

There is no hot liquor tank, you should always have one that is seperate from the kettle.

What do the fermenters look like? Why did they not include pictures of them? Looks like they are horizontal and open. The jackets are only on the bottom of the tanks instead of halfway up. This results in uneven cooling (bottom is much cooler then the top) which is not good IMHO. Since there are no cones harvesting will have to be done through the open top, if you miss harvest when it is at high krausen then you are going to have a tough time harvesting.

How are the serving tanks cooled? I notice the fermenters are listed as jacketed but the servers are not. That most likely means you will need to buy a cold room to put them in and even a small one will run more then you are going to pay for this equipment.(your costs before the first batch just hit $10K easily).

Just some basic rambling in the early am. The old auction had a Q&A on it but he did not nearly cover the essentials.

This might be a nice little start up piece but this is not a plug and play brewery.

[Steve16823]

Another E-Bay Listing! (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11876&item=3832939586&rd=1)

Here's another listing. Kinda sad all that shiny stainless steel sitting out in the weeds. Again, an electric brew kettle, and no serving tanks. The fermenters are upright, however.

I've got no experience brewing aside from homebrewing, but I have used immersion heaters for some CIP research. It's tough to get the BTUs to boil large quantities of water in a reasonable amount of time with electric heaters, and the elements are expensive and subject to fouling/corrosion.

P.S. And what the heck is a "determinator tank"? Maybe they just misspelled something, like "Mash Tung"?

[brewmonkey]

I saw that one also. In addition to being treated poorly, it looks like at least one of the fermenters is missing the manway door. They are not cheap to replace either!

A determination tank is required by the ATF and all beer must hit that tank before going to package/serving. It is the tank used to determine how much you owe the ATF in taxes. Depending on how you have it set up you pay bi-weekly, monthly or quarterly. Basically what happens is you fill out more paperwork telling them how much beer you produced and then you send them $7 per bbl, unless you make a ton of beer and then it is $18 per bbl IIRC.

I also noted that while it is listed starting at 2K the reserve is much higher. If the equipment was going for only 2K I would be all over that one. The fermenters alone are worth it but I would scrap that electric heater BS.

[MeridianFC]

This is one of the most interesting threads I've ever read here. Really good stuff. Even though I'm not in the market to open a brewpub (being several hundred thousand dollars shy with no practical experience), I harbor the fantasies like most (brew and stod, you're living the dream!).

Just out of curiousity, what are some trusted names in the manufacture and fabrication of brewing equipment? The sort of Plymouth Valiant or Zippo lighter of fermentation.

[brewmonkey]

JV Northwest, Specific Mechanical, D.M.E. and on a smaller scale Premier Stainless out of San Marcos CA. These are simply my opinions though.

[Stodbrew]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
JV Northwest, Specific Mechanical, D.M.E. and on a smaller scale Premier Stainless out of San Marcos CA. These are simply my opinions though.


Agreed. I've also heard good things about Newlands and Century mfg. I'm a huge fan of JV Northwest. Their equipment is expensive, but well worth the price. The support alone is worth it. They've been around for so long, and know what they're doing, so if you were to buy one, you are going to get a top of the line brewhouse. And they're great people to work with. Just my opinion, too.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Stodbrew
Agreed. I've also heard good things about Newlands and Century mfg. I'm a huge fan of JV Northwest. Their equipment is expensive, but well worth the price. The support alone is worth it. They've been around for so long, and know what they're doing, so if you were to buy one, you are going to get a top of the line brewhouse. And they're great people to work with. Just my opinion, too.

Everyone I know who has a JV Northwest brewhouse loves it. I like their kettle design as well as the wort grant with the plunger so you do not have to run back and forth to adjust flow during the lauter. Nothing worse then stepping out for a second and coming back to wort going everywhere.

[Stodbrew]

No doubt. The float switch on the grant is great. Except when, and only once has this happened, you forget to turn on the pump first! :D Oops.

Everything about the JV brewhouse is great. The one I currently work on is about 11 years old, and is holding up really well. When we opened our second brewery, we bought a brand new JV brewhouse, shadowless manways, all the bells and whistles. That was a great brewery. Then we closed. I miss working on that brewery.

[brewmonkey]

Shadowless manways..................oooooooooooooooooh I am jealous! Nothing like having to reach up under those manways to clean them. All my manways (all 10) were on top of the tank and not shadowless. I have scars from those damned things.

[Stodbrew]

I hear ya. Not a day goes by when I'm cleaning my manways that I'm not bleeding. But, all in all, its a small price to pay!

[MeridianFC]

What exactly is a shadowless manway? I assume that the manways are those (very submarine looking) gasketed doors that gain one access to the kettle/fermenter. I can only think of the kind that have a big metal thing that you spin and push the door in (or is it out?).

While I've got yer ears, and don't think I don't appreciate it as this is really flippin' facinating, I know most brewers here use cylindriconical fermeters which are supposed to be easier to rack beer off of, gather yeast, clean etc. But there were some folks that claimed that it adversely affected the beer I think the issue was pressure on the yeast in suspension. They suggested that the British style of ferementer (slates or the German long tanks) where you rake off the yeast was better. Any thoughts? I guess it would depend on your yeast strain somewhat.

[Bruno_78]

I've found an awsome location for a brewpub. It's an old printing company building. It's right on the river downtown, couple hundred yards from our biggest downtown hotel, "convention" center, symphony theatre, and all of downtown. Enough area for outdoor seating, lots of space inside.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Bruno_78
I've found an awsome location for a brewpub. It's an old printing company building. It's right on the river downtown, couple hundred yards from our biggest downtown hotel, "convention" center, symphony theatre, and all of downtown. Enough area for outdoor seating, lots of space inside.

Some of the best pubs that seem to best are located in older/historic buildings. Our brewery was (still is) located in one of the oldest buildings in our "old downtown." It was a stove manufacturing company and the building was built about 1874. Huhe building with the original plank floors and brick walls. Had a lot of ambience to it and does a brisk business even though they are one of the only things operating on that side of the town.

[chazwicke]

Location, Location, location.

[cjhofelt]

Bruno, I've been following this thread for over a month. I've been in suspense because it seemed to die out there. Sounds like you're on your way to a succesful venture. That location sounds great, and since youre friend already owns a resturaunt, I'm sure he knows what's involved with opening one.

Keep us posted as how you progres with this.

Carl

[Sudz]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Best bet to get money from the SBA for this would be to incorporate and have a female as the majority owner and CEO/President. I know it is playing the card but if you want them to listen that will get their attention. When we incorporated (my wife and I) we did it with her as the majority shareholder and CEO. When we first started talking to the SBA they perked right up when they heard that.

You really want to increase the odds, you know which card to play, I'm not even going to get started :D

[Bruno_78]

Originally posted by Sudz
You really want to increase the odds, you know which card to play, I'm not even going to get started :D

Please, get started. I've been told I'm not very "worldly", so I don't know which card you're talking about.

I've heard the queen of hearts is alway my best bet.

[b3s]

that's only if you're desperado...otherwise, a pair of pocket aces is good for a bet :D sorry, been watching world series of poker final table hold'em!

[Bruno_78]

I'm just happy someone picked up on that old Eagles reference besides me!

[steveh]

And the Queen of Diamonds?

S.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by b3s
that's only if you're desperado...otherwise, a pair of pocket aces is good for a bet :D sorry, been watching world series of poker final table hold'em!

I have seen many a pair of pocket rockets get burned on the turn!

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by steveh
And the Queen of Diamonds?

S. That would be Marilyn Monroe. Remember, they were her best friend. :D

[Baker420]

So who want's to open a brew pub in Mid-Michigan? I know 2 brewer's looking for a new home (and/or some backing) ;-)

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by steveh
And the Queen of Diamonds?

S.

How about "Lilly, Rosemary, and the Jack of Hearts" ?

[Bruno_78]

Here's a link to a ready made business plan for a brewery. Has anyone seen anything like this? Is it worth the $50? Even as a guideline, it might be a good idea.

business plan (http://www.businessplanning-4-you.com/cb/businesses/Brewery_Business_Plan.html)

This is a book on amazon that I've been looking at.

book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0937381519/002-0797301-4197653?v=glance)

[chazwicke]

Bruno, It seems that you have the fire in your belly to do this. Good Luck! And keep in mind, all those cycle tours to visit brewpubs and breweries will now be a "Business Expense" and a possible write off.:D

[Bruno_78]

Not a fire, more of an indegestion really. Maybe acid reflux.

I kept all my credit card receipts from my trip, can I really use those to get tax breaks?

I suppose I would have to have a corporation. I can get that done fairly easily.

Which brings me to another question, should I set up the business on paper, i.e., corporation, bank accounts, etc. now before I actually "get going" with the business?

[fretlessman71]

Those receipts are tax deductible - you are indeed doing research to begin your operation, and what better way to do it than to see how one works in person?

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Bruno_78
Not a fire, more of an indegestion really. Maybe acid reflux.

I kept all my credit card receipts from my trip, can I really use those to get tax breaks?

I suppose I would have to have a corporation. I can get that done fairly easily.

Which brings me to another question, should I set up the business on paper, i.e., corporation, bank accounts, etc. now before I actually "get going" with the business?

Keep every receipt that you have from your trips doing "research" to start your business. I would contact a good accountant first. they can help you incorporate and give you advice as to which is the best type of corporation or LLC for your venture and they can give invaluable advice on many aspects of running the business. Your write offs may indeed be legitimate but ask the accountant. It is essential that you have it done correctly and that your business is run on the up & up. The last thing that you need would be IRS trouble. I strongly recommend having an accountant right from the start.

[Bruno_78]

Would this system (http://www.nabrewing.com/complete/0117032bblcompbrewery.shtml) be enough to get up and running? Is there anything else I would NEED?

I realize it's kind of small, but the price is right and it looks managable enought to see if I can make a go of the business.

[Bruno_78]

that system is $14,900

Add $1700 for a glycol chiller

Larry Bell started with only a 2 bbl system out of his garage.

[b3s]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Keep every receipt that you have from your trips doing "research" to start your business. I would contact a good accountant first. they can help you incorporate and give you advice as to which is the best type of corporation or LLC for your venture and they can give invaluable advice on many aspects of running the business. Your write offs may indeed be legitimate but ask the accountant. It is essential that you have it done correctly and that your business is run on the up & up. The last thing that you need would be IRS trouble. I strongly recommend having an accountant right from the start.

one thing to remember...slipping up with expenses and so forth isn't a crime -- you may owe back taxes and penalties, but it isn't a crime (what my father called below the line items). this generally means some rather uncomfortable visits from the irs, some accounting bills, etc. screwing up on actual cash coming in is a crime (what my father called above the line items), it's tax evasion, and comes with a nice prison stay and the loss of the right to vote.

[Bruno_78]

any good brews in prison?

[b3s]

Originally posted by Bruno_78
any good brews in prison?

just some bathtub gin that makes absinthe seem like small beer.

[chazwicke]

Last time I was in London my buddy bought some absinthe. It tasted it. Anise flavored cough syrup. Yuck.

[b3s]

i believe the current absinthe is not the same stuff that rotted van goh's brain. i think the guvmint required the recipe to be changed.

[Bruno_78]

I found a lot of good information at work today regarding industry statistics, opening a brewpub, business plans, etc. (work is slow this time of year).

I planned on starting on my business plan after a 3F's Gumballhead (pre-shake-n-bake pork chops) and after a 3F's Dreadnaught (post-shake-n-bake pork chops).


Big Mistake

The Dreadnaught put me over the top, and I didn't think I could devote the proper attention to the plan. There's always tomorrow.

[YamahaXS]

Originally posted by Bruno_78
any good brews in prison?

pruno isn't it?

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Bruno_78

The Dreadnaught put me over the top, and I didn't think I could devote the proper attention to the plan. There's always tomorrow. That's the spirit, Annie! "The sun'll come up.... TOMORROW...... :D

[chazwicke]

Dreadnaught! FFF might be current favorite brewery in the States.

[evilredlight]

I too am looking into this possibility!
Brewery not brewpub!

I have an Exel file started and I am dropping in numbers and information as I find them.

I would like to start asap, but I do not think it will be a real possibility until 2010 or so, but the dream gets me up in the morning!

[DeadAhead]

Just been reading this thread and am anxiously wondering how the project is going? Hope everything is going well and moving in a positive direction!!!

[Bruno_78]

Ok, any of you who have been following this thread are not going to believe this. I went to 3 Floyds brewery today to get some beer. I sat down next to a gentleman and began talking, we were engaging in some good beer conversation when he points to a man in a dirty t-shirt, grubby shorts and obviously just finishing some sort of project. I had seen the man outside working on a landscape project for the new 3 Floyds brewpub as I entered the building. The man I was talking to says "that's mike floyd, the owner". Inside, I'm leaping for joy, but I remain calm.

A few minutes later, the man calls mike over, and introduces us. We're all talking about general brewery operations and how the pub construction is going. Then we get on the topic of my interest in opening a brewery 80 miles east. Mike immediately "opens up" and starts asking all sorts of questions and giving up more great information.

Come to find out, he (and I assume the rest of the company) are very eager to help other (prospective) business owners in the industry. He said that they have a lot of hard earned experience and that we all have to work together to improve the world of craft brewing. He suggested I contact nick floyd and talk to him in detail about what I'm trying to do. he said I should tell him I talked to "G" (geezer) floyd, and that he should have some useful information for me.

I don't know if i'm naive, or what, but I figured they would look at me as competition, and not help me at all. But I felt as if I was received in a "welcome to the family" sort of way. I feel that this could be a huge asset in the development of my venture. It has really opened my eyes to a fact that I knew was there, but hadn't seen in a great while, and that is "what goes around, comes around". And I fully intend to pass on this welcoming feeling to everyone that I meet in beer.

I think we (beer lovers) are pretty friendly people, and that has to continue to be passed on through our appreciation.

Being a motorcyclist, I remember that Honda had an old advertisement that "you meet the nicest people on a honda". Well, I think you meet the nicest people through beer.

I thank Mike Floyd for being so freindly and offering me what he did. It was definately above and beyond his duty.

[Stodbrew]

Nice, Bruno! That will definitely be a great asset when the time comes to pick their brains and get ideas. Indeed, people, for the most part, in the beer industry are nice and extremely helpful. It's kinda funny, the owners of my brewpub see any and all other brewpubs as competition. I, being the brewer, on the other hand, see them as a valuable resource to be able to call upon and run ideas by them, and vice versa. It's also nice to be able to borrow a sack of grain, some hops, or get a different yeast strain from them. And, again, vice versa. You are about to enter into one of the best industries on the planet.

[DreamWeaver]

Very Cool Story Bruno!

Ya went to get beer and met BrewMasta "G".

I wanna know if you were so excited that you left without getting any beer?

I've planned several trips up but something always seems to come up priority. I can't seem to get enough time before I gotta be back. ARGH!
And I can't find any 3F's around here!

So, what did ya get?

[hops99]

Well Bruno, if you're looking to open one in the South Bend area, I think that sounds like a winner. As far as I know, there's only one brewpub in the area (Mishawaka) and it's not very good. As a matter of fact, my wife and I stopped at Mishawaka twice this summer coming and going from Chicago (South Bend is only about two hours from where I live), and while the food and service were both terrific, the beer was very weak.

Good luck!

[hops99]

And I can't find any 3F's around here!

Weaver, you need to make the short drive north to beautiful Bowling Green, home of the soon-to-be Top 25 Falcons! I've got plenty of 3 Floyds in my store (Pride and Joy, Alpha King, Robert the Bruce, and even some Gumballhead left).

Or, if Dayton is closer to you, I'm sure that any of the Dorothy Lane stores would have some 3 Floyds.

[Beaver]

Great story Bruno!

[b3s]

very cool story, bruno...and a bit of an inspiration, too!

[Bruno_78]

Originally posted by DreamWeaver
Very Cool Story Bruno!


So, what did ya get?

Growler of robert the bruce. They also had a beer called Alpha Khan. "a mongolian pale ale". Very similar to the Alpha King, fuller bodied, similar hop characteristic, slightly higher in abv.

[Bruno_78]

Originally posted by hops99
there's only one brewpub in the area (Mishawaka)...

...and while the food and service were both terrific, the beer was very weak.

Good luck!

Funny, I would rate the beer higher in quality than the service, but their food is just about perfect.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Stodbrew
Nice, Bruno! That will definitely be a great asset when the time comes to pick their brains and get ideas. Indeed, people, for the most part, in the beer industry are nice and extremely helpful. It's kinda funny, the owners of my brewpub see any and all other brewpubs as competition. I, being the brewer, on the other hand, see them as a valuable resource to be able to call upon and run ideas by them, and vice versa. It's also nice to be able to borrow a sack of grain, some hops, or get a different yeast strain from them. And, again, vice versa. You are about to enter into one of the best industries on the planet.

The owners of the place I worked at were the same while I spent most of my time wheeling and dealing with the other brewers for yeast swaps or borrowing some hops/grain due to shortages. Hell we even would call each other and plan brews and then do a round robin on the yeast. We could get way more bang for the buck that way.

[fretlessman71]

Hey.... you're not the only realbeer guy who met someone famous today! I can really relate to that inward jump for joy and outward cool as a cucumber thing.... John Elway came and sat at the table in front of my piano player for two and a half hours tonight! (OK... it's his club, so you'd expect him to show his face from time to time, but STILL....) He likes our little duo, and it looks like we're going to get even more work soon. Wonder if he likes beer....

[Bruno_78]

Who?

??

[fretlessman71]

Oh yeah, I forgot.... People in Colts Country have "forgotten" who John Elway is (or at least done their level best to forget!).

[steveh]

Originally posted by Bruno_78
I don't know if i'm naive, or what, but I figured they would look at me as competition, and not help me at all. But I felt as if I was received in a "welcome to the family" sort of way.

Back in the day, when I was helping to promote one of the local brew-pubs, and 3 of the place's brewmasters were in my home-brew club, I learned that they were always working within their little "community" to help each other out. One guy down the line may have run out of a certain malt, or maybe a certain yeast, and another guy would come to the rescue.

Not directly knowing too many people in the biz any more, I can't say for sure this is still true around here - but I can point to our own BrewMonkey and Stodbrew and their thorough friendliness and willingness to help us appreciate and understand beer.

Good to know that the Floyds are cut from the same cloth - makes their beer all the better!

S.

[chazwicke]

Bruno, As I said last night during our IM chat, I am happy that you were able to meet and get some advice from the guys at Three Floyds. (I think FFF might be my favorite operating U.S. Brewery). I have met many brewers and even owners of breweries over the years and most have been unfailingly friendly. Even in Germany I toured a small brewery outside of Coberg with the German brewmaster and he spoke little English and I little German. We got along well and "understood" each others passion. There is a certain comeraderie amongst beer folks that I love. And this has been the rule for a long time. I was welcomed at many breweries and was given excellent treatment even before the micro craze and it became usual for folks to show up at breweries. You have experienced one of the best parts of the beer world.

[Fly Creek]

I came across this article this morning - thought it might be appropriate here. An interesting, common-sense tpye story...

J.

http://www.flyingfish.com/fishtales/business1.cfm (http://)

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by chazwicke
(I think FFF might be my favorite operating U.S. Brewery). This may be true, but their website leaves much to be desired IMHO... well, at least they have their priorities straight! :)

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Fly Creek
I came across this article this morning - thought it might be appropriate here. An interesting, common-sense tpye story...

J.

http://www.flyingfish.com/fishtales/business1.cfm (http://) Interesting tpyographical error, there, Fly... :D

[Fly Creek]

I think this might be the first time that I have been cited by the spell-check police. Ouch. :eek:

[fretlessman71]

Funny... I didn't catch it the first time! Something to do with that crazy thread aimed at me from a week ago, maybe? :D

[chazwicke]

Well get back on duty. No deserting your post.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Interesting tpyographical error, there, Fly... :D

Correctly the above should be -

Interesting tpyographical[sic] error, there, Fly

[Fly Creek]

and if I sent you to the incorrect site, would that be a topographical error?

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by Fly Creek
and if I sent you to the incorrect site, would that be a topographical error?

Nice.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Fast_Eddy
Correctly the above should be -

Interesting tpyographical[sic] error, there, Fly Bless you! You feelin' okay, there, Ed? ;)

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Bless you! You feelin' okay, there, Ed? ;)

Atchooooo[sic]!

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Fly Creek
and if I sent you to the incorrect site, would that be a topographical error? Yes, and if you sent me to the incorrect sight, it would be a homophonical error. I see THAT a hole lot on this board! ;)

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Fast_Eddy
Atchooooo[sic]! And right back atchooooo! [fake sic] :D

[Bruno_78]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Yes, and if you sent me to the incorrect sight, it would be a homophonical error. I see THAT a hole lot on this board! ;)

Don't you mean a WHOLE lot?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I Finally caught fret in a mis-spell!

I Got It!!
I Got It!!
I Finally Got It!!

[fretlessman71]

*grumble* No, you didn't... :rolleyes: http://www.bartleby.com/61/91/H0259100.html

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by Bruno_78
Don't you mean a WHOLE lot?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I Finally caught fret in a mis-spell!

I Got It!!
I Got It!!
I Finally Got It!!

And don't you mean "misspell"?

[Bruno_78]

Dammit! In all my excitedness, I've not only proved that I don't get it, but I've humiliated myself by showing my true intelligence level.

I need one of those NON session beers now!

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Fast_Eddy
And don't you mean "misspell"? I was going to let that one go - from an artistic point of view, I could have gone either way. But you're not wrong.

It's almost noon, Bruno - better start hitting it! ;)

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Bruno_78
Don't you mean a WHOLE lot?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I Finally caught fret in a mis-spell!

I Got It!!
I Got It!!
I Finally Got It!! Or not.... but better luck next time.

Must say, however, that I'm honored you would consider it a coup to catch me in error. I couldn't POSSIBLY be held in that high regard, could I? Or is it that everyone is so tired of their corrections that they're champing at the bit to turn the tables on me? I suspect the latter is closer to the truth...

And before you get excited.... it is indeed "champing", not "chomping". ;)

[Bruno_78]

Originally posted by Fast_Eddy
And don't you mean "misspell"?


I was trying to make a point.

or something like that.

WHATEVER!

Leave me alone, guys!

[Bruno_78]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
[B] Or is it that everyone is so tired of their corrections that they're champing at the bit to turn the tables on me?


Don't you mean "chomping"?

[fretlessman71]

<-- AUDIBLY GROANS

[Bruno_78]

did I do it again?

[toneyc]

Fret... You may be taking this entirely too far. RDWHAHB.

;)
Toney.

[fretlessman71]

Yeah, but Bruno's just too much fun to pick on, and he knows it... such a willing practice dummy! :D

[Bruno_78]

RDWHAHB?

[chazwicke]

Yeah, RDWHAHB?

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by Bruno_78
RDWHAHB?

I'll give you a hint - the last two letters stand for Home Brew

[fretlessman71]

Chaz and Bruno, you ought to be ASHAMED of yourselves! I mean, Good GRAVY!

Relax, Don't Worry, Have A Home Brew. SHEESH! :rolleyes:

[Beaver]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Yeah, RDWHAHB?

Relax, Don't worry. Have a Home Brew.

[chazwicke]

Thanks guys. Since I don't really homebrew anymore it has been a decade since I last read Papazian.

[Bruno_78]

I'm very relaxed, I don't worry about anything, and I'm at work, so I can't have a homebrew.

But I still don't know what RDWHAHB means!

Here it comes!
I Don't Get It!

[mblinn]

NABrewing.com has an interesting piece on financing brewing equipment for a startup brewery.

Can you more experienced blokes expound on this? Pros? Cons?

Cheers,
Michael

PS: And yeah. It's 'expound' - RDWHAHB ;)

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by mblinn
NABrewing.com has an interesting piece on financing brewing equipment for a startup brewery.

Can you more experienced blokes expound on this? Pros? Cons?

Cheers,
Michael

PS: And yeah. It's 'expound' - RDWHAHB ;)

With the amount of good used equipment on the market now there is really no need to finance a new brewery or even a used one. If you are starting a brewery you should have the cash to purchase a used system to get you going and upgrade/replace later on.

You do not have to have a showcase piece to get going or to make great beer. That is a downfall of many owners I have met, spending to much money for a system or financing one that they cannot afford.

[chazwicke]

Welcome to the board Mblinn. Yet another new Virginian to the board. That makes 3 in the last couple of weeks.

[mblinn]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Welcome to the board Mblinn. Yet another new Virginian to the board. That makes 3 in the last couple of weeks.

Thank you so much, it's an honor to be chosen for this award. First I'd like to thank God, without whom there would be no beer.. My family, for teaching me the art of homebrewing.. My dog, for teaching the necessity of sanitation..

Oh, gosh, who else...?

My manager, all the fans.. SUDS records, Big Hoppy, OG unit, the IBU gang... Thank you. I love you all! Rock the beer!



Some day I'll do an acceptance speech like this for making the perfect brew (;

Getting back to our regularly scheduled programming.. Do you brew in NoVA?

[chazwicke]

Nah. I used to, from the mid 70s until the early 90s. There is too much good beer out there now.

[mblinn]

I plan on brewing smaller quantities of beer until I get my recipes exactly how I want them. How tough is the conversion from a 5-gallon batch to larger, 7-10bbl batch? I don't suppose it's a simple as doing the math...?

[DreamWeaver]

Originally posted by mblinn
How tough is the conversion from a 5-gallon batch to larger, 7-10bbl batch? I don't suppose it's a simple as doing the math...?

It IS that simple! Just download a free copy of ProMash or Beersmith and it will adjust batch sizes for ya. Modern tech huh?

Like Homer Simpson once said "WOW, They have the internet on computers now!"

WWW.ProMash.com

[mblinn]

It IS that simple! Just download a free copy of ProMash or Beersmith and it will adjust batch sizes for ya. Modern tech huh?

Okay, that's just plain awesome. Yeah I have a copy of ProMash, but haven't figured out what all the little buttons and symbols mean.

I'm still wowed by the beer color estimation thingy ;)

Thanks!

[mblinn]

One thing I don't see a lot of discussion about is packaging/bottling equipment that is required to run a brewery. I imagine these would probably run from your homebrew-like single hand bottler all the way up to the uber-expensive, if you get into anything automated.

What kind of equipment/prices are out there? Can you find this equipment used as well?

I'm building a case for opening this brewery... C'mon financing gods ;)

Thanks,
-Michael

[Ilwaco Ed]

I keep seeing 'bright beer tanks' listed at the equipt sites. What are they? My wife and I are looking at opening a smaal pub after my retirement (soon!!), so all of this info is helpful. It's nice to note that if we use a large number of the suppliers that have been listed, we would be buying local.

[EBW]

Good Luck Bruno!!!

I have a long term goal to have a small brewpub up here in N. E. New Mexico someday. I shall follow this post to see how it goes.
I have yet to start homebrewing, but it's coming soon, and I would like to express my thanks to all of the members for your answering of my questions previously and in the future.
I also wish to express my gratitude for the happy kinship I have experienced from you all.

I spend all my time in thought of crafting beer and enjoying it in the good company of your comments and knowledge.

Bruno, Go Get'em!!!

EBW

[TackleDummy]

If anyone feels like sharing their experience, could you give us an idea of how much it cost you in total to get even a small brewery up and running? It might be helpful to those of us who aspire to someday open our own brewery know what kind of start up costs we're looking at.

[Bruno_78]

Well, I finally took an important step today in getting my business started.

I actually talked to someone about the business, besides family and friends!

I met with a gentleman at my local Small Business Development Center (http://www.sba.gov/sbdc/) . They provide counseling and management assistance to small business entrepreneurs. My local office holds seminars on "starting your own business", "preparing your business plan", "business feasibility", and "developing your marketing plan".

They also work with local college students to get prospective business owners the information they need to start their business.

My banker turned me on to this office. Just figured I'd share this information for those of you who are interested in a similar venture as myself.

[chazwicke]

Good for you Bruno! I believe that is a step in the right direction.

[mblinn]

In lieu of betting the farm on startup and buying my own kettles and tuns, what about contract brewing with another established brewery?

Can anyone with experience give me some ups and downs of this idea?

Thanks,
Michael

[chazwicke]

What you might want to do is try a BOP. Staunton is not too far from Alexandria and Shenandaoh Brewing company not only brews their own but operates a Brew On Premisis. Maybe this might be an option.

[mblinn]

Originally posted by chazwicke
What you might want to do is try a BOP. Maybe this might be an option.

Right - There is a BOP here in Staunton called Queen City. I figured I'd use them to refine my recipes before going into business. However, what I'm really concerned about is taking out a 2nd mortgage, maxing out the cards and signing my life away as collateral for a huge loan to buy kettles, in a small town that frankly I'm not sure will even support a brewery!

Starr Hill in Charlottesville, VA uses Old Dominion to contract brew a lot of their beer. I figured maybe I could use OD until I made sure the business would fly, and then get a big loan for the beerhouse after I was sure it would work. Any thoughts?

-Michael

[chazwicke]

New River (Blacksburg area) uses OD also and is a mighty nice Pale ale. OD contracts lots of beers ( Like Tupper's) and I'm certain they would work something out. Staunton is a nice town and I do not remember the population but I once read or heard that an area with a population of 50,000 could support a brewery. It seems to me that the downtown has a little theater and some other upscale dining. That is the element to which you want to market to I would think. People who have or think they have, a more sophisticated palate. I like the idea of contract brewing first. It seems the safest way to do it. Slightly less risk. Although I will say that I was very conservative in my business and took a huge gamble to start my own business several years ago. I was fearful of taking the plunge but it has paid of and in spades. So I now always advise people who are thinking of starting out to accept the gamble and challenge. I have helped at least 6 other individuals set up their businesses through advice and referrals. Although some of them compete with me for a small portion of business the rewards to me have come back in far greater quantities.

[Bruno_78]

Well, another step in the process tomorrow.

I'm meeting with a class of students from the University of Notre Dame's business program. I have to do a little mini presentation on my project, and if selected, they will spend the rest of the semester preparing a feasibility study. If the results turn out promising, this study will become an important part of my business plan.

I'll find out in a few days if my project is selected. (college students + beer = ???)

I'll let you know how it turns out.

[Stodbrew]

Nice, Bruno. Good luck!

[studentofbeer]

Originally posted by Bruno_78


I'll find out in a few days if my project is selected. (college students + beer = ???)



you would think it would be a no-brainer to select this project! good luck, i hope they pick it and help you out.

[chazwicke]

Good luck! Got my fingers crossed.

[Restin]

Well done Bruno!

I think the mere fact that you managed to put yourself in that sort of position is a testement to your entrepreneurial skills.

Be sure to offer samples, lots and lots of samples. :D

[Bruno_78]

I gave my presentation this morning. Turns out, college students have a large interest in BEER! Who knew!

I'll find out next week if my project gets picked. There were 11 presentations, 10 will get picked.

[fretlessman71]

Man, I HATE knowing stuff like that. How'd you like to be the only one who didn't make it?

Beer and college students - sounds like you're a shoo-in! :)

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Ilwaco Ed
I keep seeing 'bright beer tanks' listed at the equipt sites. What are they? My wife and I are looking at opening a smaal pub after my retirement (soon!!), so all of this info is helpful. It's nice to note that if we use a large number of the suppliers that have been listed, we would be buying local.


Remember, most breweries use unitanks (cylindro conical) fermentors which allow them to do primary and secondary in one tank. Once secondary is completed the beer is racked to the brite tank where it will be fined and carbonated and allowed to clear out or as we say "drop brite".

From the brite tank it will go to either serving or packaging.

[Fly Creek]

Brewmonkey:

What happens when the beer is "fined"? :confused:

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Fly Creek
Brewmonkey:

What happens when the beer is "fined"? :confused:

The brewer (or cellarman) will drop the temp of the beer and use a fining agent such as isinglass or gelatin.

[chazwicke]

Fining helps to clarify the beer.

Bruno, How do you think the presentation went?

[Bruno_78]

The presentation went well. I had a ball. I kept my prepared section pretty short, and then the students asked questions for about 10 minutes. That was my favorite part. I had a sharp quick answer for everything they shot at me. It was a lot of fun.

I haven't given a speech since high school. It all came back to me pretty quick.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Bruno_78


I haven't given a speach since high school. It all came back to me pretty quick.

Is that like talking with a peach in your mouth? :D

[Bruno_78]

You must have mis-read my post, friend. It's spelled correctly.


(pay no attention to the "last edited" section at the bottom)

[chazwicke]

Noting like talking about our favorite subject. I can do it for hours too. Actually I probably need to apologize to you and your GF for the boring stories after the EBF.

:o



I saw Fondren at Blue Gray. He said they did try to meet us at Rock Bottom but sat at the bar for a while. The wait for the tables was too long. He may have been there while we were eating.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Noting like talking about our favorite subject. I can do it for hours too. Actually I probably need to apologize to you and your GF for the boring stories after the EBF.

:o



I saw Fondren at Blue Gray. He said they did try to meet us at Rock Bottom but sat at the bar for a while. The wait for the tables was too long. He may have been there while we were eating.

I used to brew a beer called loquacious pale ale...

[chazwicke]

Wanna talk about it?:D

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Wanna talk about it?

Ironically I usually had to spend a few minutes explaining the name to people. I was amazed at how a word like that would stump so many people.:eek:

[Bruno_78]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Noting like talking about our favorite subject. I can do it for hours too. Actually I probably need to apologize to you and your GF for the boring stories after the EBF.


Why apologize for beer stories?




I saw Fondren at Blue Gray. He said they did try to meet us at Rock Bottom but sat at the bar for a while. The wait for the tables was too long. He may have been there while we were eating.

That's kind of funny.

[Bruno_78]

I will be finding out shortly if I am selected for the feasibility study through Notre Dame. I believe they will be deciding tomorrow.


In the meantime, my small business advisor has provided me with a sample business plan for a brewpub. If anyone is interested, I may be able to pass it along.

[Stodbrew]

I'd like to take a look at that business plan, Bruno.

[sallad]

i'd like to see, too. not actively persuing the brewpub dream, but it is still a dream!! ;)

[chazwicke]

I'd be interested as well.

[Restin]

Count me in for a copy.

[SnapperShell]

I'd really like to take a look at it. I am more interested in how much money It takes to open a brewpub.

[threecb]

I saw this (http://beeradvocate.com/forum/read.php?thread=441093&id=441093) over on BA about the Hops chain shutting down. Seems like there's gonna be a bunch of used equipment on the market, for those of you looking.

[rich]

I was reading this thread and I have to say good luck on the success with this. At one point I read how other people in the industry may view a new brewery or brewpub as competition. I guess it could be. But I read somewhere that the microbrew/craftbrew segment of the brew industry in the U.S. only holds 3% of the total market share, with the rest going to the 3 largest brewing companies (which I believe are Miller, Coors and Bud I believe... probably wrong on the names of the actual companies but you know what I mean).

In a way, every craft brewery is an opportunity to educate more of the public as to what constitutes good beer and what is in fact, swill. If the market share was to get larger, it could be possible for small breweries and brewpubs to exist in every town (as it is in Germany). I mean, that other 97% of the market share is a big chunk of change.

Anyway, I was curious if those that have responded to this, and are in the industry would say whether or not there is the possibility for a person to make a living brewing. And by a living I mean enough to have a normal life, but not hand over fist money. So many people that are in the industry give me the same answer... that they are scraping by, not making much... or are waiting to finally start making money. Any feedback from anyone on this? Is the market share just too small?

[chazwicke]

Your questions are good ones. I have had that response to questions I have asked too. I would like to be involved in a brewery in some aspect. I also know that when a hobby or passion becomes a job it loses it's appeal. As far as restaurants go I worked in many and even was a chef and ran a kitchen at one point. VERY hard work. I told my wife I forgot how to cook and I never cook at home. Anyway, I'd like to have an interest in a place but at this point in my life I don't want to do the hard work.

[threecb]

Rich, you're pretty close on the numbers. I think Imports are about 11% of the market, too. I've also read on this site's homepage (http://www.realbeer.com/news/articles/news-002483.php) that 2004 showed significant growth in the craft brew market.

From what I've seen (I'm not in the industry) there is generally a comraderie withing the industry. Craftbrewers seem pretty willing to share information. Many states have craft brewers guilds or associations to help share ideas and promote their product. I suppose it stops up to a point, though.

AFA financial info, there are others here more knowledgable than me in that area, but your perceptions are farely accurate from what I gather. You get into this because you have a passion for it, not because you want to get rich.

[Jeff Lockhart]

Only thing I can say, having come up against a road block. Start talking to banks NOW! Not just one either, as many as you can get to. Contact the SBA, find out if there are other loan guarantees (sp?) out there (I know thereis one other, but I can't think of it right now, some kind of rural development guarantee). Talk to family and Friends about your project (You never know where financing might come from). But this is the most important thing next to the Business Plan IMO.

Good luck, and maybe I'll see you at the CBC in Philly, I'll be there

Slainte
Jeff

[chazwicke]

I'd be a little wary of the SBA loans. There is a lot more hoops and paperwork to go through and a lot more regulation on what your doing. Better to keep the Govt. out if you can.

[rich]

My problem is that I absolutely hate working for someone else. More than just a dislike. I used to have my own business, and once it folded, I just haven't had a days happiness on any job since.
I have today off (will be working this weekend). Gonna have lunch then tear the kitchen apart brewing.


Dare to dream.

[Jeff Lockhart]

I agree, Chaz, SBA is a bithc but you have to get the money somewhere. It could come from several investors or one but you have to keep all your options open. See my post in the announcements section about our project. We are trying all avenues. I guess that is my point, keep all the options open and well explored.

Good luck Bruno

Slainte
Jeff

[chazwicke]

I printed out your business plan. I am also chatting with a friend of mine in Colo. Asking him about your location. Do you intend to offer shares? What do you propose as a return on the investment?

[fretlessman71]

Where is your friend in Colo., chaz? Would he like to sponsor a local musician? :D

[chazwicke]

You know him. Former board member here. He is in Denver.

[Jeff Lockhart]

Chaz,
Was that for me or Bruno?

Slainte,
Jeff

[fretlessman71]

I think that was for you, Jeff. Cañon city, right?

Chaz - gotcha. I remember now. Do say Hi for me when you speak next.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Jeff Lockhart
Chaz,
Was that for me or Bruno?

Slainte,
Jeff

You and Bruno can answer too..

[Bruno_78]

You mean I gotta answer all those hard questions?

Damn, I thought you were just gonna hand over some money and trust me!!!!

[chazwicke]

I trust you.

[Jeff Lockhart]

Chaz,
You already have a copy of our Plan? Damn, that was fast!

Anyway, to answer your question: As it states in the post, cash/collateral will make the investor an equity partner. In other words, you will recieve a membership in the LLC according to how much is invested or put up as collateral. Investors are prefered because like I said SBA is a "bithc";) and I really don't like banks all that much.

As far as ROI, that will be dependent on how much you own and how well (or not) the company performs e.g. you own 10% and the company makes $10,000 net profit , you get $1000 this continues up to the point where you are paid back plus 10% of your initial investment. So I guess that is the ROI, 10%.

Slainte
Jeff


Fret, Where is the tilde N on the key board? And yes, Canon city.
(it doesn't look right with out the tilde. Then again Slainte doesn't look right either without the ??? over it.)

[chazwicke]

Do you have references and or resumes? How much are you trying to raise?

[Jeff Lockhart]

Chaz,
If you send to the e-mail address in my post, they will sene the executive summary to you. It has our resumes and other info on the project. our start-up cost total is about 600k. Our consultant is sure this is enough and as the post indicated, is an award winning brewer and owned a successful brewpub chain and a brewery.

As for me, My only industry experience is with Sweet Water Brewing Co. of Atlanta. I worked there for five years and did everything except brew for them (cellar work, mechanical, plumbing, wort xfer, dropping yeast, filtering, bottling line, ......

Seven + years homebrewing using my own recepies for six. All grain for two+ years. Origional recepies in the English and Irish traditions.

Slainte,
Jeff

[Bruno_78]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I trust you.

Uh oh! Your fault, not mine!:eek:

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Jeff Lockhart
Fret, Where is the tilde N on the key board? And yes, Canon city.
(it doesn't look right with out the tilde. Then again Slainte doesn't look right either without the ??? over it.) With your cursor right where you want it, hold down [alt] and punch in "164" on the numerical keypad on the right.

Here's a cool link for you: http://www.asciitable.com/

[Fly Creek]

Aren't equity holders and LLC members the same thing? Or did you mean "creditor class" instead of equity holder? :confused:

[Jeff Lockhart]

Fly Creek


"Aren't equity holders and LLC members the same thing?"

I think that is what I said. If not, it is what I meant.

"cash/collateral will make the investor an equity partner. In other words, you will recieve a membership in the LLC according to how much is invested or put up as collateral."

Love that fly fishing tho I'm not all that good. But is the point really to catch fish?

Slainte
Jeff

[Jeff Lockhart]

Chaz,
As Brewmonkey pointed out in the other thread, 10% is just an example. Actual ROI is negociable (sp?).

Slainte
Jeff

Fret,

Thanks for the link. I'll try to use in in the future.
ñ hey, it works!

Guild, How is Slainte represented?

[chazwicke]

Thanks Jeff! I'll PM my address. Also, Approximately how many investors do you have lined up right now?

[Jeff Lockhart]

Chaz and anyone else interested,

e-mail me @ jlockhart@mindspring.com include your forum name in the subject line and "Brewpub".

Chaz,
I did not get a PM from you did you send one?

Slàinte,
Jeff

Fret, thanks for the ASCII page.

[chazwicke]

Should be there now. :)

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Jeff Lockhart


Fret, thanks for the ASCII page. My pleasure.

[Bruno_78]

Originally posted by Bruno_78

I'm meeting with a class of students from the University of Notre Dame's business program. I have to do a little mini presentation on my project, and if selected, they will spend the rest of the semester preparing a feasibility study. If the results turn out promising, this study will become an important part of my business plan.

Well I finally found out that my project was selected for this study. I'll get the results sometime late in april, I believe.

[Jeff Lockhart]

Congrats. This will save you alot of work!

:D

Jeff

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Bruno_78
Well I finally found out that my project was selected for this study. I'll get the results sometime late in april, I believe. That's fantastic, Bruno! What's your next step? Are you basically treading water until they do something?

[chazwicke]

CONGRATS!!!!! That is really great.

[Bruno_78]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
That's fantastic, Bruno! What's your next step? Are you basically treading water until they do something?

Sort of. There's not much I can do to speed it along. I can keep working on my business plan, as this study will only be in addition to the plan.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Bruno_78
Well I finally found out that my project was selected for this study. I'll get the results sometime late in april, I believe.

The biggest wish of luck is that they report back with positive feasibility!

I hope the chili recipe wouldn't have been a deciding factor... ;)

S.

[Bruno_78]

Yeah, wouldn't that suck if they find out that it wouldn't work?

However, if they find the contrary, it will be invaluable when I go to the bank.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Bruno_78
However, if they find the contrary, it will be invaluable when I go to the bank.

Indeed! Where do we send the bribes..? ;)

S.

[Bruno_78]

University of Notre Dame. (as if they don't have enough bribes)

[chazwicke]

:eek:

[Bradfrd12]

first of all this thread is wonderful. I am looking into starting up a brewpub here in Valencia Spain and this has just been a wonderful read. I do have a few comments and questions for any and all of you.

First, Bruno... you asked about a book you saw on Amazon (Brewery Planner). I don't know if you went ahead and bought it or not but I have it. It is really good as a sort of check list of what NOT to forget. I haven't finished yet but I think with all the information you get from this forum, chats with friends, brewers, nortre-dame business students and the like the book may be a bit redundant. However, I could be completely wrong at the same time and it could turn out to be very useful for you. It has been a jaw dropping read for me because I am very very new to the idea and had no idea how much is involved. My 2 pennies are now yours. If you want more info on the book just tell me and I can give you a quick chapter list.

Second, I have done research to find an equipment maker here in Europe. Not easy. I found one in Germany (Kasper-Schulz) which looks very impressive and specialises in small and medium brewery systems. I was hoping that I could attach the quote they sent me and get some feedback from you guys but I can't attach a .pdf and stupid acrobat is not letting me convert it to .txt for some unknown reason to me. So, if anyone is willing to give me a hand I would be more than happy to send you a copy via e-mail. Bradfrd12@fastmail.fm

Third, if anyone out there in the great wide world knows of manufacturers or brewery supply companies in Europe (preferably on the continent) please let me know.

Bradford

**almost forgot: the system is very small I know but bear in mind that mediterranean people are not all that fond of micro brew.....YET!**

[Gomtorus]

Bruno,

I joined the thread a little late but have been following with keen interest. As many other lurkers here, I am too playing with the idea with starting a small (10-15 bbl) microbrewery. I currently live in Houston but am planning this venture if / when I go back home to Cape Town, South Africa.

Any chance of that business plan still floating around or that someone can forward me a copy. Not sure how much is transferable into a South African scenario but the ideas in it might be very useful.

Thanks,

Gomto

[chazwicke]

Welcome to the board. I get a good feeling knowing that good beer is making it's way around the world. I recently saw Windhoek beer available here. I had not seen it since the 70s. Is it any good?. It is a South African beer.

[Gomtorus]

Thanks Chazwicke,

Windhoek Draught is decent. It has German heritage (Namibia previously being a German colony) and overall it is pretty ok for a commercial type beer. Might be because they follow the German purity laws in producing it if I remember correctly.

[chazwicke]

I seem to remember another beer called Rogue with an elephant on the label. There were a couple of others but it really has been since the 70s since I tried any of them.

[knifeparty420]

I had to come up with a business plan for a class in school and I decided to "opening a brewery". I was wondering also if someone could email me a rough, rough business plan. I just need the basic and I can BS the rest. Thanks in advance.

iamfrankleonard@yahoo.com

[cluckk]

This thread has been very informative for me. My wife and I live in Northern Idaho and have talked about this sort of business. She loves to cook and I love to homebrew. We have discussed whether a brewpub would be good for us.

Thanks everyone for all the useful information.

[chazwicke]

Welcome to the board! So do you think you will open a place too?

[cluckk]

I don't know if I will, but I am leaning that way. I'll need to do some more research.

Right now I'm trying to learn all I can about brewing and to master the process.

It will be a few years before we can seriously look at starting, but now would be the time to learn all I can about it.

[Danno6102]

Bruno,
I followed the link from "The Brewboard" (www.brewboard.com) that was posted in a similar topic. I am very interested to here what was returned to you from the college study & what your latest status is on this project. Reading this thread has sparked a renewed interest for me to pursue something like this.

Thanks
Danno

[Bruno_78]

Status is it's still happening, though a lot slower than I originally anticipated. My original goals may have been a little optimistic!

The study through notre dame was basically an analysis of whether or not this community had the demographic base to support a business such as this. The results indicated that yes, it would work in this area based on income leves and so forth, but the first few years would be tough.

[fretlessman71]

Now - did you ever pick a name for the place? We're all waiting with baited breath!

[Bruno_78]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Now - did you ever pick a name for the place? We're all waiting with baited breath!

Better quit chewin' on worms then!


Get it? Baited?

[fretlessman71]

I don't get it!

[chazwicke]

I found the results of the ND analysis to be intreguing. Did you finish looking at that business plan I sent?

[Bruno_78]

Yeah, thanks. I will get that back to you with the rest of the shipment I have for you. But I need your new address.

[chazwicke]

Hold on to it for another week or so. We are expecting to move 7/22 to the new office. The whole thing has been a big pain. Did the business plan give you any insights?

[Bruno_78]

Oh absolutely. If for no other reason, to see how another person set up the whole structure of the thing. But there was a lot of other good info in there too.

[ionia ales]

SO!!!!????



I just read this whole damn post and I am left hanging!




I will open a brewpub or brewery in Lincoln NE


Well, I just am curious how things went.

[Jeff]

Ionia are you opening a brew pub in Lincoln? Let me know the details and I will definately be there.

[chazwicke]

Welcome to the board!

[Steve16823]

Originally posted by Jeff
Ionia are you opening a brew pub in Lincoln? Let me know the details and I will definately be there.

Is Lazlo's still operating in Lincoln? Several years ago I used to visit Lincoln often on business. Just curious if they were still open.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Steve16823
Is Lazlo's still operating in Lincoln? Several years ago I used to visit Lincoln often on business. Just curious if they were still open.

Yes, with two locations. The same owner also opened another restaurant called Fireworks which is better IMHO. Empyrean Ales still has the same great line-up of beers if you had any the last time you were out this way.

[Steve16823]

Originally posted by Jeff
Empyrean Ales still has the same great line-up of beers if you had any the last time you were out this way.

My last visit was in 1999, so my memory of their selection isn't so good! I probably wouldn't even have remembered the name of the place if it weren't printed on a T-shirt in my closet!

I just remember enjoying the beer and the food.

[ionia ales]

That sentence.. I will open a ...- was just wishful thinking.....

Well, I want to open one and am giving it lots of thought. I have had lots of encouragement from YiaYia's, in that they'd sell some beer if I made it, so I am trying to figure out if I could make small amts and sell it there in cornies, and build up to a couple bbl system--
Or do you create a brewery bar... type thing and fight for some college crowd.. maybe have bands.. or go right against the Lazlo's and do the brewpub with an eatery.- the latter I am not interested in. I think getting in with the city.. and responding to the planned convention center as for location and making a really nice facility like McCoy's in KC... but that is getting close to Empyrean.---

AS FOR THEIR BEERS.. yes they are good.. as A-B is good. I think their beers are really not so different or special (they are nearly "perfect") and my plan would be to make my beers more unique.

There is a growing market for the Belgian ales, and the Big (I)IPAs.. etc. and I think that Empyrean can maintain their Brown Ale. ;)
Furthermore .. they are so mechanized/filtered.... I'd really like to get down into the dirty beer making. and away from making a boulevard wheat, instead a real WIT-with belg.yeast.

I have been an all grain brewer for a while now, and I can't stop thinking of it. I think a small time brewery is the safest bet, but I'll be able to move more beer with taps open to college kids.. but they're less likely to buy 3-3.50 pints. BUT, I know that CraneRiver's Monday 50% off pints was awesome. (speaking of which, my dreaming all started when I was 2 weeks late on replacing Steve R at Misty's.. the new assistant got the possition... rats, but I want to make hoppy paleales.. that might not appeal to the Busch Lite/steak crowd.)

A guy can dream right?
I am looking into the paperwork/businessplan.. but I have the support of my family and friends who have been pushing me to DO something I really want to do... one day...

[gone_fishing]

like many others who commented on this thread I found it very fun to read as it is an exciting idea...but, like them I'm also curious...what happened with it, Bruno?

[Jeff]

I wish you good luck in whatever direction you choose Ionia. I make it over to Yia Yia's on a semi regular basis and would think that if you had some beer there it would sell. I usually stop by to see what is on their rotating taps.

[ionia ales]

I've got a wyeast 3787-trappist- triple- OG 1.074 fermenting right now,
it should be bottled and ready in a month or so... maybe a bit more.. I'd love to share some with you Jeff--or anyone.

I have one of my flagship beers about ready.. recipe wise.. I finished one of my last bottles last night.. Pale, Munich, caraV, or cara M- can't recall right now.. a bit of crystal 60L, and Chinoook/willamette hops. US-56-
OG 1.064, and about 55 IBUs..

mmm... one day...

So... Bruno -WHAAZZZZZUP?

[Jeff]

Ionia, let me know when it is done. I have a couple bottles of a Vanilla Porter left, it didn't turn out quite as well as I had hoped, but we could work out a trade.

Has Bruno been around in a while?

[fretlessman71]

He pops in now and again. I think he was on yesterday, as a matter of fact. Kinda miss him; he used to be as omnipresent as chaz and myself. Plus I liked trying to tell if he used his human head for an avatar.

[chazwicke]

I miss him too. Last picture I saw of him he had shaved his beard and cut his hair. He looked completely different. He is a good guy and I enjoyed hanging out with him in Boston, New Haven, and Chicago.

[Bruno_78]

One of these things is not like the other one!

Can you guess which one is me? I know, it's hard with the extreme makeover!

[fretlessman71]

Now THAT'S a human head! :D

Good to see your posts again, Bruno! Can you give us an update on the brewpub? Love to hear about it!

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Now THAT'S a human head!


You said it! ;)

[Bruno_78]

By the way, that's Steveh and Osh, middle and right, respectively.

[fretlessman71]

So stop being coy and give us an update, wouldja? :)

[Bruno_78]

Oh, alright. It's still in the works! It's going to happen. My original time frame may have been a little optimisic.

[ionia ales]

What have you learned over the past 6-12 months that you'd do differently. What would you suggest to an obesessed brewer looking to start a standalone brewery and work on getting distro'd, or an alehouse.. brewery bar.. or do the brewpub with the restaraunt?



so many questions....

Thanks.

[Holter]

I really enjoyed reading this thread, lots of good information in here. Ive thought about doing this for a few years, but as I am very young and just starting my career - i dont really have the money to throw into my hobby - or at least im a bit too nervous to.

Right now my buddy and I have been brewing for some time and sharing our brew with close friends up until last week. My work was throwing a st. patty's day party for clients and asked us to bring in some of our homebrew for the party - so it was our first time really sharing our beer with anyone outside. We brought in 4 cases, 2 Hefe and 2 Stout - and we probably got like a 99% approval rating from people. The only negative reviews were that the beer had too little carbonation, which realistically is something i am ok with. Actually, my impatience caught up with me because i brought in my special pale ale that ive been working on perfecting in case people were really interested in beer, but i had only bottled it 2 days before. My plan was to share a few with friends or people who were interested in homebrewing, but i wanted to explain to them that the beer was going to be flat and cloudy etc etc. Unfortunately people were sointo all the beer that they just started grabbing them out of the fridge and drinking them anyway, and i ended up finding about 6 of the 12 pale ale bottles abandoned halfway through.

But the whole experience really showed me that people do appreciate a good ale, and that there could be a fun second career in this. Before i graduated, my way of making money was in editing at home, but now that i edit for a living i find it very hard to get motivated to edit at home (when i would rather be brewing or reading about beermaking).

So my plan with my fellow "brewmaster" is to find a bar in our area that we could work up a deal with to get them to stock our beer for a certain amount of time. Or just somehow get tied in with a local bar or store where we can sell our beer. In California, there is a $100 startup fee with an annual $124 fee for a microbrewery or brewpub. Does anyone have any experience with this sort of deal? I cant find much info on this outside the california commerce site. Any links to places to read about this would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

Holter

[Erin W]

I used to go up to Golden to visit the Coors Brewery often as out-of-towners would want to see some of Colorado's attractions.
At the end of the tour they will give you 3 free 8oz drinks.
I heard it was unlimited at one time, but one of the employees, got ripped one night before leaving work, and it was ugly. Now 24 ounces, that's it.

[SoxyinMO]

Originally posted by Bruno_78
One of these things is not like the other one!

Can you guess which one is me? I know, it's hard with the extreme makeover!

But your lovely beard went missing :eek:

[Cregar]

Don't know if your still working on your project or if you past this point but found this link on another post and thought it might be useful.

http://www.abtonline.com/micro.html

[shirteesdotnet]

I appreciate all the info in here.

Heres my situation. A german friend of my dad is owner of a large place (for oktoberfests). He said his place was looking for a microbrewery to make a beer for them and would use us (my brother and I) if we could come up with a nice brew. Weve got that part figured out.

My question is, without investing a lot of money into this, how can we determine how much beer to make? This is for a 6 week period around October and frankly, Id like to turn this into a full operation, not just a month or two of the year.

But for now, we'd like to brew enough beer to handle at least two weeks of this upcoming season and see how people react to our beer. Lets say with friday, saturday, sunday = about 9000 people per weekend x 2 weeks. So we need to come up with enough beer for 18,000 people and generally I would say people drink at LEAST three 16oz drinks in a day. Thats not counting if people will or will not drink our beer. They will of course have a selection of 3 other beers (I think Spaten, Lowenbrau, Coors).

Any suggestions would really help get our butts moving on this! Would a 2bbl system work out for us? Would a 5 bbl system be better? Weve got space to do this, so that wont be a prob. We are going to have a tapping party of our marzen and maibocks to showcase our beer to our german friend to tantalize him. If we get the go ahead, we'll have a lot to do in a short amount of time.

Thanks for any replies! -Dave

[shirteesdotnet]

We'll also have to figure out how to transport this beer about 2 hours distance. I guess rent a refridgerated truck? Boy wouldnt it be nice to have our own fridge truck with taps right on it :) or lines running to the bar.

We dont mind making several batches... We dont need to make one huge 40bbl batch or something.

Another thought. If we are going to negotiate a price... lets say a beer cost $5 per 16oz... as brewers, what are we going to end up selling that 16oz for? Is there some sort of 'going rate'?