Am I Infected??? ~Pics~

[HarkJohnny]

just opened the lid to an oatmeal stout i brewed about 3 and a half weeks ago and the smell was strange... then i saw this
http://www.harkjohnny.com/images/stout1.jpg
and this
http://www.harkjohnny.com/images/stout2.jpg

i popped one of the bubbles and it smelled very putrid.... Is there any way to save this beer?? or is it on it's way to the sewers of Cincinnati?

[brewmonkey]

Did you taste it? Is it sour? Can you give us any other details?

[HarkJohnny]

wasn't sure if i should taste it really! i'll post back

[Tom C]

Looks like an end of a krausen to me. Have you ever watched beer ferment? This is why I love the glass carboys over the plastic containers. You see the krausening, yeast churning, yeast cake developing....The bubbles and top layer of the fermentation (called krausen) would be very yeasty and for a stout not very appealing in itself.

I would transfer to your secondary and take a sample 1/2 way through the transfer and then make a decision.

Tom C

[Steve16823]

I wouldn't worry about tasting it. There are very few pathogens that would thrive in wort.

(Disclaimer: As I've mentioned before, I often have no idea what i'm talking about, and if you die it's not my fault)

[Tom C]

I agree no one has died from patghogens from beer....yet...at worst the sh$ts for the week. heheheh I bet it is fine though.

Tom C

[stronk]

That looks pretty bad to me... Although i have had an oily stout before now (and the close-ups look oily, even if the full view looks just like mould). I agree with the tasting. A brew is never going to give you food poisoning with a taste.

[wortchillergoal]

Looks somewhat normal to me.

Hey, if any of you guys die frim tasting your beer, my dad is an undertaker. I'll get you a deal.

[Tom C]

I would recommend, however, that your next brew not sit so long in the primary fermentor. I would not allow your ale to sit any longer than 14 days on the original yeast cake. It could create unwanted off flavors of it sits longer.

Tom C

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by stronk
That looks pretty bad to me... Although i have had an oily stout before now (and the close-ups look oily, even if the full view looks just like mould). I agree with the tasting. A brew is never going to give you food poisoning with a taste.

Almost true but not quite. There is a pathogen that can survive the process called vomitoxin. It is a form of mold that is found in wheat and barley (as well as other items). My reading has shown that it is found across a wide range of products and is ot just limited to the brewing industry but that it does in fact survive through the process and can be found in the finished product.

It get's its name from the ability to make you vomit after ingestion. According to the FDA the advisory for human consumption is at 1ppm.


A short blurb about it is here. (http://www.brewingtechniques.com/bmg/gudmestad.html)

I do recall some brewing urban legends about some people in the UK dying from this some years ago but have never been able to acurately confirm this. Maybe one of our brethern across the pond can shed some light on the rumor or maybe it's origins.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Tom C
I would recommend, however, that your next brew not sit so long in the primary fermentor. I would not allow your ale to sit any longer than 14 days on the original yeast cake. It could create unwanted off flavors of it sits longer.

Tom C

Notably would be autolysis (cell death) which will impart mealy/meaty flavor into the beer which is quite unpleasent.

[Steve16823]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Almost true but not quite. There is a pathogen that can survive the process called vomitoxin. It is a form of mold that is found in wheat and barley (as well as other items).

This is technically not a "pathogen" but a "toxin" or poison, produced by a mold that grows on wheat. The mold is killed quite easily but the toxin is pretty stubborn (if the mold forms spores it may be tough to kill the mold as well). And if your malt or malt extract has the toxin, you're pretty much SOL regardless of your sanitation protocols. So here's hoping the quality control is pretty good on the malt producers end.

Useless science factoid: The meat-substitute "Quorn" is made from another species of the same mold (Fusarium).

[HarkJohnny]

Originally posted by Tom C
I would recommend, however, that your next brew not sit so long in the primary fermentor. I would not allow your ale to sit any longer than 14 days on the original yeast cake. It could create unwanted off flavors of it sits longer.

Tom C

sorry, i should have mentioned that it was in primary for two weeks and then in secondary for the past week and a half.... thereby three and a half weeks.

thanks for all the insight, input and ingestive suggestions. i'll be sure to share my findings.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Steve16823
This is technically not a "pathogen" but a "toxin" or poison, produced by a mold that grows on wheat. The mold is killed quite easily but the toxin is pretty stubborn (if the mold forms spores it may be tough to kill the mold as well). And if your malt or malt extract has the toxin, you're pretty much SOL regardless of your sanitation protocols. So here's hoping the quality control is pretty good on the malt producers end.

Useless science factoid: The meat-substitute "Quorn" is made from another species of the same mold (Fusarium).

This is the definition of a pathogen as I learned it. Maybe things have changed since my high school science classes.

path·o·gen ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pth-jn)
n.
An agent that causes disease, especially a living microorganism such as a bacterium or fungus

Vomitoxin is a mycotoxin produced by the Fusarium fungi. Would that not make it a pathogen?

[stronk]

Well, either way it sounds pretty bad! I think the definition only includes non-living things so that virii can be classified as pathogens.

[HarkJohnny]

OK, so what I did is sani'd a large stainless spoon and skimmed all the crap off of the top and then I racked to a new container and left a decent amount out... let it sit for a bit to settle and then racked into a corny... pressurized and force carbed.... gave it the weekend and while i know it's early on the carbonation front, I went ahead and poured one... it still has that strange smell to it, and it tastes of the same flavor as well.

I'll leave it in carb for at least another week, but i doubt this flavor will go away... i'll have a friend try it and then probably end up dumping it.

I'm rather bummed because I did an English IPA about the same time and I was worried about sanitation issues, as I think that was my prob with this stout, so I kegged it, and while it's drinkable, it's still rather sweet as have been all of my beers so far. I think the yeasts in the kits are not strong enough, or i'm doing something wrong. $50.00 down and time lost... when i can't afford it most. damn!

[Steve16823]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
This is the definition of a pathogen as I learned it. Maybe things have changed since my high school science classes.

path·o·gen ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pth-jn)
n.
An agent that causes disease, especially a living microorganism such as a bacterium or fungus

Vomitoxin is a mycotoxin produced by the Fusarium fungi. Would that not make it a pathogen?

Don't mind me.. I'm probably just splitting hairs. Personally, I would refer to the Fusarium as the pathogen and not the toxin.

Practically speaking, I suppose it doesn't really matter. What is important to note is that it's not something that will grow in the beer, it's something that comes from contaminated grain and it's either there or it's not (most likely not).

[Fast_Eddy]

Those very large bubbles look out of place. The whole thing looks odd. I bet it's infected.

[orb]

IF'N It were up to me- after seeing the pictures-I'd be prone to dumping the five gallons in an enemies front yard. and filling the bucket with bleach before bringing it back in the house...or better yet, leave the bucket there to attract hornets, wasps. and west nile virus mosqitoes...and "splurge" on a mere 12 bucks for another primary fer christs sake.....

[HarkJohnny]

yeah i hear ya.... my local LHBS said it's probably a Brett infection. i went ahead and kegged it, but it's not good IMHO. too sweet and still smells and tastes funny. going to the sewers soon.