Stainless Conical Fermenters

[blevfamily]

Hi Everybody,

Has anybody out there bought one of those new stainless conical fermenters? I would love to hear if it's worth the investment?..............Blev

:cool:

[YamahaXS]

i would like to know too. a have seen them at brew city supplies for abotu $450

[Tweek]

Drool....... Man I want one of these so bad (well 4 of them would be better). I cant get the wife to buy into the idea yet though and I figure it would be pretty hard to hide them from her :D

[YamahaXS]

are there other less expensive conicals? i haven't the foggiest, but seems to me that they would be easy to make out of cheaper materials.... ie glass lined, copper, highgrade plastic?, etc...

[Tweek]

plastic is way cheaper. and from what I understand they are decent. I just have an aversion to plastic.

[b3s]

6.5 gallon attached below...food grade plastic...$229 USD at www.thebrewhut.com (no, i don't work there or otherwise affiliated...but i do shop there and like the service).

http://www.thebrewhut.com/images/Picture_0316.jpg

[batkins]

I saw a conical like this at my local brew shop. Much cheaper. Not sure on how good it works or quality, but with the price difference, it might be worth a shot. ;)
http://www.undergrounddigital.com/vvessel.htm

[blevfamily]

Here is the one I would love to have. I saw it at-

www.williamsbrewing.com

[paul84043]

I think that I would have a really hard time justifying the expense of the stainless conicals.
I have two of the "affordable Conical" fermentors, they cost around 100$ depending on who you get them from. I can't see that the stainless would do anything better. Unless you really dislike plastic and have trouble lifting and pouring carboys or heavy buckets, then it's really your only option that makes any sense.
I use my conicals for shorter ale type beers because it is pretty tall (no pun intended..) , about 39 inches on the stand, though it will fit into a refrigerator, it's kind of a pain and a carboy is so easy.
I also don't want to do a beer that's going to be sitting in the fermentor for a very long time, I think I run a much higher risk of setting odors and possibly colors into the plastic, though as of my fourth batch, it hasn't been a problem at all. I rinse it out with bleach and boiling water, it cleans right up.
I really like my conicals, they are cool, neat to look at, draining the trub off is a breeze, and very convenient, but they will not make better beer, that's a guarantee and isn't that what it's all about?
I also wouldn't spend the extra money on the higher priced plastic conicals unless you're going to get the 15 gallon one and do 10 gallon batches (that would be cool...). That was the one I was going to buy initially and was very disappointed when my brew shop didn't have one in stock so in my haste, I purchased the affordable instead. It works perfectly, I have been very happy with it and with the cost savings.

If you're a gadget freak like I am they're great. If you're set up and making good beer with carboys or kegs, I wouldn't bother to spend the extra money.

The biggest problem that I have been able to see with the V-Vessel fermentor is that you can't put it anywhere other than in it's wall mount bracket. It could prove to be moderately inconvenient. I can put my conical on it's stand anywhere I want.
Plus the V-Vessel has that very narrow neck, almost as small as a carboy which would be very difficult to clean, plastic really needs to be gently scrubbed whereas glass does not... I can put my whole arm into mine to wash it out.
The capsule idea is a great one, so much so that I actually ordered one from them to adapt to my conical, I found the mating fitting online and am just waiting for them to ship the capsule to me.

If I were going to buy a stainless, I would definitely pass up the smaller one and get at least the 12 to 15 gallon model, (If not larger) the price is typically only a fraction more and would be well worth the extra effort for the money spent.

one other comment, I purchased the "racking port" for mine and have yet to even mount it...I just haven't needed it.

If anyone has any more specific questions on conicals, I would be more than happy to keep ranting. I don't have alot of experience with them, but I think I've gpt a pretty good handle on it.

[Tweek]

paul84043,

The way I view the stainless versus plastic is that if the tool is something that you will use a lot then stainless really is the way to go. As soon as you scratch that plastic conical of yours you will need to throw it out, which means that you will need to get another. There are a few types of brewing equipment that you can buy, the kind that works but wont last long, the kind that works and will last a few years, and the kind that works and will last a lifetime. Stainless will last a lifetime. Also it is not true that the beer that comes out of plastic is just as good as the beer that comes out of glass or stainless. I will concede that if you have a properly cared for plastic fermenter the beer that comes out of it will be very good and the diference will be negligable, but it will become more apparent over time.

[asciibaron]

here's my take (and justifications):

the plastic buckets are great for starting out, but plastic is plastic. if it is scratched, it becomes a bucket for washing the car. i'm not risking a bacteria problem just to use a plastic bucket. sure, it's under $10 to replace, but if you step up to several fermentors going at the same time, this could be a waste of money - if you buy 2, you could have just bought a glass carboy.

glass carboys are economical and minimize bacteria problems. the downside is the drop factor. it is bound to happen, but the risk is trival. they may be hard to clean, but they can be soaked without fear of chemicals leeching into it. plus you can see the action.

plastic conicals - the ease and cost of plastic with the problems of plastic. i thought about eventually moving to one of these, but the cost vs. the number of batches i intend to make do not make it reasonable. 4 glass carboys are cheaper and more resistant to abuse. plus, with the carboys, you can experiment with different yeasts on the same wort. you gonna buy 4 conicals?

stainless steel conicals. the sportcar of fermentors. i can see getting one if you brew beer on a grandscale. 10 gallons every other week. semi-pro if you will. when the cost is reduced to that of slightly above the plastic conicals, then i could see moving to the stainless steel. this is for those that are mini mass producers that need the ability to clean them quickly and move the wort off the trub just a quickly.

i still think that having 4 glass carboys is the way for me to go. i don't drink more than 3 beers a night and if i always have one in the fermentor i'll be happy. yeah, and if you believe that might i interest you in this bridge i am selling...

-steve hanlon

[paul84043]

Here's my take on Stainless...

I think it's cool as hell, but....

Most of the opinions that we hear are just that, opinions, plastic conicals are new enough that I have yet to actually hear of someone using one to the point that it's worn out.
If I could afford a stainless, I would own one. (hell, I'd own two!!)

I don't think a plastic conical can make any worse beer than a plastic bucket and those have been used for many, many years.
Scratches are easy to deal with in plastic, and even easier to avoid, simply don't put anything in it that will scratch it.
if you were to leave plastic exposed to light all the time, over a period of years it will begin to discolor, harden and ultimately crack, but polypropylene and polyethelene are pretty serious materials, not nearly as prone to problems as ABS or even PVC, that's why most of your newer sprinkler systems and home plumbing systems are polypro tubing. It's good and will last a lifetime.
The very nature of the process being that you cover your fermentor and keep it from being exposed to light will lengthen its life even more. Polypro was formulated and designed to be chemically resistant, that's why it's so popular with the food industry.
The chemicals involved in making beer are mild enough as to not even enter into the equation of wearing out plastic, it's a non-issue. We store stuff far nastier than ester alchol in Poly tanks here at work, and I have never seen one rot through and leak all over the place.

I don't really buy the oxygen theory either, I can't believe for a second that enough oxygen transfer is ocurring in the short period of time that my beer is in the fermentor, a week or two, to have any effect on my beer at all. There is considerably more transfer through wood than through plastic, and cask aged beers are very sought after because they are so good. If my palstic was that pourous, my beer would be leaking all over the floor. That and most of the time my fermentor has a positive pressure due to the evolution of C02, not the other way around. And what about the oxygen that gets in when you open the lid to look? That has to be several thousand times, maybe even several hundred thousand times as much oxygen as could possibly be seeping through the walls.
Though it would be interesting to test, I doubt that you could tell the differenct between beer brewed in a stainless vat versus a plastic container, assuming that it was properly cleaned of course! (that's probably the biggest issue right there)

I work in an industry where we use vacuum technology in 99% of our products and processes, so I am very familiar with how pourous materials are, even 3/16 copper will transfer atmosphere through it given enough time. Stainless Steel will too, just give it few thousand years... You may be able to measure the amount coming through in a decade or so.

I'm not saying that plastic is the best thing to come around since the bread slicer, though it is pretty cool, nor am I saying that it's even equal to stainless because it not! But it's cheap, light, and easy to work with, and a good material for this application.
I may yet end up with a stainless just because it's in my nature to gravitate towards quality, but the cost to date is extremely prohibitive.
I have already spent over 1000$ on beer stuff and have only made 5 batches! Good thing it's beed awesome beer so far!

I don't want to come across as challenging your opinion at all either, these are all issues that I thought over quite a bit before I started dropping cash, on beer stuff, so I have been here before.

Both setups have thier down points. Plastic....have to keep it clean, clean, clean, and don't scratch it! (easy to hide in closet from in-laws..)

Stainless, very expensive, a bit heavier, and also have to keep it clean, clean, clean, and god forbid that you scratch it!!

Sorry, I neeed to stop writing these books....

[Tweek]

those are some good points. I tend to side with you that the average ferment cycle of "most" of the beers that homebrewers ,ake will not be in the fermenter long enough to get oxidized because of the plastic. I also dont think that you will have that bucket long enough to wear it out, you will end up replacing it long before you wear it out. My biggest gripe with plastic is flavor absorbtion. Plastic will absorb flavors that you put in it, so your cleaners and your beers will absorb flavors into the plastic and over time you will begin to get off flavors. This was my main point and I seemed to have missed it almost entirely in my first point, heh oops. I have made 100s of batches of beer. I have used both plastic and glass (sadly I cannot afford stainless conicals either) and I can definately tell the diference between plastic and glass. I would encourage you to grab a glass primary and split a batch between plastic and glass and see if you can tell the diference. Perhaps you wont be able to, all the better for you.

As far as challenging my opinion, I appreciate that. keeps me on my toes and keeps me questioning my methods. I have been brewing for a while and as I said have made 100s of batches but it good to keep questioning your tactics.

Thanks

[paul84043]

I actually have begun to do batches in glass carboys which should give me the perfect opportunity to do a comparison, mainly because I am very curious myself!
Any suggestions to a style or flavor of beer that you can think of that would be best to do a comparison? Maybe one with a mild flavor instead of a heavy one that may mask other artificially induced flavors or even odors?

I really like the carboys, they are cool to watch, easy to store and transferring really isn't that big of a deal...

I just got the conical to begin with because of it's simplicity and the "Gee Whiz Factor" was pretty high...

[Tweek]

yeah try a beer with a delicate flavor profile, like a pilsner or a wheat beer perhaps. Make sure to update me with what you think once it is finished.

[YamahaXS]

how long have the stainless steel fermentors been out?

I think they are way over priced... the materials can't cost more than $50.

Perhaps, they will come down in price...

I wonder what would be needed to build your own stainless conical?... the fittings are no problem... its just getting that conical shaped vessel with a nice smooth interior. .... makes me wonder.... everything else can be built out of wood.

any thoughts?

[Tweek]

Stainless fermenters have been around in the professional space for a long time. I have looked into building one and it looks like it would be pretty difficult. I am not a welder but I ahve a few friends that weld. The consensus is that stainless is hard to work with, and that due to sterility issues that it would be very time consuming to make sure you didnt end up with any bubbles or holes in your beads. You could probabally get one made for cheaper but I am not sure how much cheaper. Let me know if you find out a cheap way to get one.

[paul84043]

Unfortunately Stainless is relatively expensive and it takes a very skilled welder to do it properly and quite a time investment to grind and smooth out all of the welds.
There are also many types of stainless, some are very hard and difficult to work with...

I think that the prices being asked for some of these commercial Stainless Conicals are really not too far off the mark, but it's 85% labor.

The pressed tubs, where all of the welds are outside, are far superior and infinitely less expensive to make and are definitely overpriced just because they CAN ask those prices and get them.
They are also made out of a lesser grade of stainless due to the requirements of the pressing process, which does not necessarily make them lesser fermenters, just cheaper.

They really need some competition to drive the prices down.

[batkins]

I saw a prior post somewhere that had a link to stainless steel conical hoppers. There were basically the fermenter body. The prices were still pretty high, just for the stainless body itself.
http://www.toledometalspinning.com/
If you look at the products page, then the hoppers, you will find them.

[paul84043]

Those are the exact same "hoppers" that I have seen used in a few different places selling Stainless Conicals with no internal welds..They just weld on the legs and machine holes for the fittings.

[YamahaXS]

Originally posted by paul84043
Those are the exact same "hoppers" that I have seen used in a few different places selling Stainless Conicals with no internal welds..They just weld on the legs and machine holes for the fittings.

great find Batkins.
the pdf shows exact dimensions... i have to measure some things tonight...

[paul84043]

You know....if someone were motivated to try to get a few people together, I would be interested in buying one of those hoppers to help shave off a few bucks...
That lower priced 12 gallon model looks pretty good, or one of the 6 gallon models.
There's no law that says the stand has to be made from metal either....but welding some legs on one of them wouldn't be a big deal.

I'll bet I could make a fully functional fermentor out of one of those for around 200$....

[YamahaXS]

i am definately interested, but just spent a bunch of money on my kitchen.

i think the stand would be pretty easy to make... a wood frame with a plywood midsection iwth a hole cut out... though, the cone section might not be load bearing....

i wonder what they charge for shipping.

[asciibaron]

http://hbd.org/brewniversity/engineering/conical/

[paul84043]

I hadn't thought about copper with all the talk about stainless....

[YamahaXS]

asciibaron... very nice find. i emailed the guy asking him if he had changed anything since he put up the page... also, asked for his estimates of time and money. hinted that he come here, so maybe we will get 1st hand feedback. :)

EDIT: email was kicked back

[YamahaXS]

Found these kits designed around the toledo metal spinning products.

here (http://www.zymico.com/konical/)

[batkins]

While looking for info on conical fermenters, I ran up on this. Has anyone every seen/heard of/used one of these? If it worked as advertised, and for only 25.00 , it's looks great for small batches.

http://www.brewsource.com/ProdNav/Eq_439.asp

Cheers,
Bill

[Tweek]

yeah I have seen those in action. I think that they work reasonably well. unfortuanetly you still have to deal with normal carboy stuff as well as flip them upside down. but for those that want a conical for the sake of drawing off trub they are a great option. for those that want one to make life easier I would suggest waiting for the price to come down on the full size stainless ones.

[b3s]

batkins: ironic you should mention that...tweek and i were just discussing this on irc the other day. to me this looks way better than a plastic conical. i think the one at morebeer.com he showed me didn't have a stand, though. i like the stand, too :)

[asciibaron]

from rec.crafts.brewing:

This question probably comes up once a week. The product is a complete waste of money, it doesn't work. The sides of a carboy neck are not steep enough to make the yeast settle in the neck. The yeast just sticks to the sides. *Real* conicals have a 60 degree angle in the bottom. A carboy's neck is no where near that steep.

i would have to agree. in theory great idea, in practice - edsel

[batkins]

aaaaahhhhhhhhh

[CaptHook]

Originally posted by batkins
aaaaahhhhhhhhh
They are not easy to use. I have two your welcome to.
I also drilled the bottem of the glass for air lock and cleaning.
Worked ok, you can fill in the inverted position and drain from the bottom valve. I STILL HATE HANDLING THE GLASS! I now use all stainless. Cornies that is. With a simple modification to the lid and tube you have primary and secondary fermentors. You have a closed system. And cheap. If you want a larger fermentor, use your kettle with plastic wrap over the top. Works just great.

[paul84043]

In response to the Fermentap product, I was draining the trub off of my conical and accidentally let a bubble of air escape into the fermentor, this is avoided by pre-filling the drain line with sanitized water....well the result was that I instantly foamed an entire gallon of beer and blew the cap off of my fermentor.
This would probably be the case pretty much every time with the Fermentap due to the fact that the only avenue for air to get into the fermentor is by going up through the wort.
My conical has a lid on top that I can remove and allow the level to drop with no negative effects....
I don't know, I just see too many problems with the fermentap. It doesn't even solve the problem of handling the glass carboys...

I think the products currently in use are pretty much the best we've got to work with.
I'm thinking seriously about making my own, or buying a stamped stainless hopper for a stainless conical. Probably in the 12 gallon range.

[Tweek]

Paul Make sure you let me know how it works out if you make one out of one of those hoppers. If it works good I am game.

[paul84043]

I'm still thinking about it....my wife is getting nervous....

[YamahaXS]

Originally posted by paul84043
I'm still thinking about it....my wife is getting nervous....

...as she should be!

hehehe just kidding!

i think i will invest in some kegging eq b4 i buy/build a conical...

[danno]

I think I'd buy one of these (http://www.kegs.com/fermenters.html) before I bought a stainless steel conical....

[batkins]

That's a pretty sweet little fermenter! If it was only about a 100 bucks cheaper....... ;)

[paul84043]

Wow, I'm impressed....alot of thought and prep went into that little bad boy!

I agree, if the price were only 100$ cheaper...

My wife is bugging me to start kegging, I don't know why...
I think maybe I'll try out a few of the Party Pigs and see how that goes before I put a couple hundred bucks into corny kegs.

[Tweek]

Paul, you should be able to pick up cornys for around 20 bucks a piece. Unless of course you want them brand new. If your local homebrew shop doesnt sell them new you can always get them on ebay or there are plenty of places that sell them used online.

[paul84043]

I know, but that's just the start...then you have to recondition them, buy C02, tubing, taps, mount everything, and of course you wouldn't only want to buy one Keg.....I'll get there eventually.

[CaptHook]

Originally posted by paul84043
I know, but that's just the start...then you have to recondition them, buy C02, tubing, taps, mount everything, and of course you wouldn't only want to buy one Keg.....I'll get there eventually.
That Sabco unit is exactly what I did with a 5 gal corny for fermenting. You shorten the tube about 1" to leave behind the trub. To transfer to the next corny(secondary) use a jumper tube from the out to out and open the keg to relieve presure. Do the same for racking, and your beer never sees O2. I also use cornys
to mash and lauder, it can handle 12lbs of grain. My goal is to use
them all the way thru. HLT, lauder, boil, and fermenting. MY new goal is "NO MORE GLASS OR PLASTIC!". By the way, the price of cornies are coming down. They are obsolete. Do not pay more than $10as is, $20 reconditioned. At the rate they are dropping
"as is "will be free next year.

[IBrewMine]

I bought my conical at www.austinhomebrew.com They had the lowest price in the country on stainless and plastic conicals. I did the research before I bought one of the 12.2 stainless models. The shipping was free on top of that. Very happy with mine.

[jfyan]

you can get a nice smooth cone for your project for a 12.2 gal. from toledo metal spinning for about 80 bucks and maybe 40 for a lid-cheers

[jfyan]

you should check out morebeer.com-they have the best prices and they are excellent welds and free shipping-mine is producing winning beers already

[vendejp]

Ill bring this thread back to life....

CaptHook,
The cornys are 5 gallons and dont leave much head room for blow-off and stuff. how do you accomodate this? Did you drill an airlock hole in the corny lid? I would think this would create a lot of blowoff though.

i like the idea cuz cornys are relatively cheap, you have no siphoning, etc. The only problem I can see is the amount of head space for krausen/blowoff and the fact that you cant do a batch larger than 5gal.

Thanks

Originally posted by CaptHook
That Sabco unit is exactly what I did with a 5 gal corny for fermenting. You shorten the tube about 1" to leave behind the trub. To transfer to the next corny(secondary) use a jumper tube from the out to out and open the keg to relieve presure. Do the same for racking, and your beer never sees O2. I also use cornys
to mash and lauder, it can handle 12lbs of grain. My goal is to use
them all the way thru. HLT, lauder, boil, and fermenting. MY new goal is "NO MORE GLASS OR PLASTIC!". By the way, the price of cornies are coming down. They are obsolete. Do not pay more than $10as is, $20 reconditioned. At the rate they are dropping
"as is "will be free next year.

[blowboat]

If you want to try it , This is what I use for fermenting. Check these 2 out , Just paste into address bar. The first has a screw top and 2 inch threaded fitting to attach a valve to harvest yeast or to drain. The addition of a racking port was easy. The center of the screw top pulls out for an air lock if you ferment before bottleing. Will handle liquids up to a specific gravity of 2.0 thats like concrete. Make sure wort is below 140 degrees MAX better below 120 degrees.
The second is a basic conical container. Both have stands you can order. I just cut a circle in my counter top and drain into a keg that I converted for secondary fermenter. Good luck and happy brewing.


http://www.watertanks.com/products/0155-005.asp

http://www.watertanks.com/category/246/

[Fly Creek]

I bought one of those 12-gallon Fermenators almost a year ago. This was an upgrade from the primary and secondary galss carboy method. I only make 5-gallon batches, but the place I bought it from priced the 7- and 12-gallon models exactly the same, so I figured: why not buy the 12? I use a little extra sanitizer than I would with the 7, but I buy it in bulk, so the cost difference there isn't much. Also, the difference in dimensions between the 7 and 12 is only a few inches each way.

The most important question is: has my beer improved? Not really (although I like to think it has been and still is pretty good). I did have a problem with the trub clogging the bottom dump spout on my first batch, but I solved that by draining a little each day for a week rather than waiting a week for a big buildup. There is also a small air vent (similar to the pressure release on a corny keg) which allows draining trub without drawing airlock water into the wort.

I really do like the fact that I no longer need to rack from primary to secondary. This has always been a problem. Because of busy schedules (and a little laziness) I never seemed to get around to racking until a few days or more after I had originally planned. The conical saves time and effort in that respect.

Also, the thing is so easy to clean and sanitize that I now spend next to no time on my least favorite part of the brew process. I connect a garden hose to the hot side of the laundry hookups and clean/sanitize in the backyard.

Fianlly, as any gear junkie can attest, the stainless conicals are really cool looking. I admit I'm a little lucky - my wife didn't mind the expense and even thought it was cool looking too! I really want to make the move to all-grain brewing, but I will need a larger pot and the necessary sparging gear. I have been pricing the necessary gear and I fear my luck with the Mrs. may be running out...

I have been brewing for over ten years and do not regret the expense. I hope somebody finds this helpful.

[fretlessman71]

Hey... just being dense here... but what's the name of the fermetor that's plastic, white, has a screw-off ball end for your trub, and bolts to the wall? There's a few of us here who use it, but I can't remember the name and I don't have the time to go searching through all creation for it - I just spent 15 minutes on my last post when I should be running songs for rehearsal this evening! :rolleyes:

[ray m]

I must have missed this thread during my hiatus:rolleyes:

Fretless, I believe you are referring to the V-vessel---a device that I am a staunch supporter of. I believe Payson also has one (haven't heard from you in awhile, Payson). Anyhoo, I've had mine for 7 or 8 months and is by far the best money I've ever spent. It cost me $149 (no shipping charge from morebeer.com). Beer stays in the V-Vessel from primary fermentation all the way through bottling---absolutely no racking. In a typical batch, I have to empty the yeast collection ball twice: once after day two or three of primary fermentation (to offload trub & crap), and again 3 or 4 days later when I harvest the yeast from it.

I would of course love a stainless conical, and envy those of you that have one. They were out of my price range though. The V-vessel has been a God send, and have had absolutely no trouble with it whatsoever.

[skynut38]

I have an 8-gallon plastic gallon fermenter that works quite well. Cleaning is easy and I have successfully brewed multiple batches of beer in it. My only suggestion is get the airlock gasket and by extra clamps to seal the lid. Three is not enough.

[jstrausss]

My brother and I have been using "affordable Conical" Plastic fermentors for at least 2 years , and the diffrent types of beer we've made seems very good with still no flavor lose or bad tastes. As we get more experienced, the beers are getting better and better. no complaints here. and just as an FYI these fermenters are made of a much harder a thicker plastics grade then a regular food grade bucket, which seems to be softer and easier to scratch.

[golden boy]

hi does anyone know if you burn a little of the wort,is it bad:confused:

[fretlessman71]

Let your taste buds be the judge. There is such a thing as a "happy accident," but you'll probably be able to taste a little bit of scorch in the brew. Now, this may not be a bad thing, and if you're brewing a heavier beer it may not show up much at all. When you take a gravity reading, try a little from the tube and let us know what you think. Welcome to the board!

[YamahaXS]

Originally posted by golden boy
hi does anyone know if you burn a little of the wort,is it bad

not at all, your beer will be a bit darker. Next time turn the burner off while you dissolve the extract into the water.

FYI you probably should have started a new thread :D

[golden boy]

thanks guys i tasted the wart and it was sweat and it smells
like apples,it a ESB

[fretlessman71]

You mean "sweet," right? Not trying to correct you, but just clarifying that your beer doesn't taste like salty underarms. ;) Good to hear that you're on the right track - stick around and tell us what you like!

[golden boy]

sorry about the spelling did not check it on last reply

[BrewDog]

Fret you gotta stop scaring everybody with that avatar.

[fretlessman71]

BOO!

[Thirdrail]

Originally posted by asciibaron
http://hbd.org/brewniversity/engineering/conical/
hhmm i braze copper almost dialy....i think i can totally do this

[golden boy]

how long do wait to put the wort in 2nd stage

[YamahaXS]

Originally posted by golden boy
how long do wait to put the wort in 2nd stage

You want to rack over to secondary after the initial fermentation settles down; often indicated by the krausen falling down. Time wise this is usually somewhere between 3 and 7 days. Many people will rack over after 7 days regardless because its easy to remember and plan for (i.e., spend a couple of hours every saturday on brew related activities.)

[golden boy]

do you think its a go thing to buy one of those plastic fermenters
the big ones

[fretlessman71]

Yes, you can brew great beer with the plastic fermentors. Good beer depends less on the ingredients and the equipment than it does on the brewer.