Beerpolitik: No more French, German or (gulp) Belgian beer for me!

[pubscout]

Brewpolitik: The right to choose...your brews
by Kurt Epps--The PubScout
2/16/03


Caution: this column may upset you.
Especially if you?re German, French or Belgian, an anti-war person or a supporter of Saddam Hussein. It may even upset those of you who believe that beerwiters should just comment on beer--and not world events. But sometimes beer and world events coincide, so you have been warned.
At one time, the US could only gawk with envy at the kraftwerk of German brewers, but those days are over. And they should stay over, at least in this beerdrinker?s eyes.
This is one beer lover who?s not buying anymore German-made beer--for a couple of reasons, not the least of which is that the quality of much of it has declined terribly. But I?m boycotting German beer because I?m a little more than ticked at our German ?friends? and their leaders? position with respect to the US position on Iraq. As you might have guessed, I?m not one of the 30 billion protesters the media would have you believe are opposing US policy in Iraq.
The realpolitik of my German Beer Boycott is this: American brewers are making better beers than the majority of German brewmeisters anyway. Why support the products of a country whose leadership abandoned us? And after all we did to help them rebuild their country (after we kicked their megalomaniacal butts) when they tried to take over the world...not once, but twice?
I know, I know. Why just German beer? Why not everything German? OK. I?m not buying that VW Passat I was eyeing up the other day, or the Braun coffee maker. And a Mercedes was never on my wish list anyway. But the fact is, I don?t buy those things everyday. Beer?s another story. My dream vacation of a Beer Trip to Deutschland is indefinitely postponed as of right now.
And what about our ?friends? the French? Aren?t they equally culpable?
Damned right. But they?re not known for their beer; they?re known for their overpriced wines, and beer drinkers like me couldn?t care less if we never had another French wine anyway.
And as far as being our friends--they never were, not when we saved their sorry butts (from their new partners, the Germans!) twice in twenty-five years. Sure, they helped us kick Cornwallis?s butt in Yorktown by blockading the York River to prevent the British escape. But that wasn?t because they were our friends. They simply hated the British. It was the old ?enemy of my enemy is my friend? philosophy. The French, like most of their beers, are simply inconsequential.
And, as much as I hate to say it, the Belgian beermakers can go scratch, too. We?ve got Americans brewing great Belgian styles right here, much of it as good as or better than that out in Flanders Fields (remember--where all those American kids died?)--and for far fewer American dollars.
I?ll buy beers of any country that supports us. The Brits, for example, have a place reserved in my fridge. The Czechs are also in the house. But you Jerrys and Frogs have ticked off this American beer lover big time. And until you get your minds right, I?ll have no more to do with you.
I suffer from no delusions of grandeur. I understand that news of my personal boycott may not send shivers down the spines of those countries? economic gurus. But that?s because spines are a prerequisite for shivers.
And to celebrate my boycott, I?m poppin? the top of a Stickenjab Altbier (US-Heavyweight-Ocean, NJ) right now.
God bless America--and her brewers.
Anyone care to join me?

[steveh]

Originally posted by pubscout
Brewpolitik: The right to choose...your brews
by Kurt Epps--The PubScout 2/16/03 >snip<
As you might have guessed, I'm not one of the 30 billion protesters the media would have you believe are opposing US policy in Iraq.

In the same vein, and to quote a friend from Munich, "Watch out for yourself and don't believe everything that is said about Germany on the US media. I watch CNN here in Germany too."

Just food for thought. As everyone in the U.S. isn't of one mind, neither is the rest of the world - and I'm not one of the protestors either.

Steve

[tastybeverage]

Pubscout-
I respect the fact that you want to do your voting with your dollar, but don't forget the American importers, shippers, distributors, and store owners that would be hurt by such a move. All of our economies are interconnected.

I also agree with Steveh, just because a gov't does something doesn't mean that the entire country supports that action, look at the U.S. You take shots at bailing out the French and while I'm not opposed to a bit of "Pierre Bashing" every now and again, let us not forget that without French support we wouldn't have won the Revolutionary War against the British. Many of our most valued documents were written in Paris during that time, they also gave us the Statue of Liberty. These nations that didn't jump on board in Iraq are also democracies and entitled to free will as a nation.

History runs in cycles, who would have thought that the Japanese would be one of our greatest trade partners after we dropped the bomb? (Canada is by far our greatest trade supplier and the largest importer of oil to the U.S.) So what is today, may well not be tomorrow.

Hopefully you reconsider a beer trip to Germany and/or Belgium, the people are friendly, the beer is superb, and those nations are beautiful and rich in brewing history.

[Brewdepest]

True, you have a vote with your buck, and I myself have yet to meet a French person that I like (I keep my eye peeled and hope the next will be the one I can be cool with), but this just seems kind of petty to me. There are still good German, French, and Belgian brews, and beer is something that will outlast any conflict. Who knows, maybe some unforseen event would shift the tides a bit. This war with Iraq, though the major event of the world at this time, will become a blip in the radar long after it's over. Beer is forever.

[pubscout]

Beer is forever...you're right about that.

It's just that for this beer drinker it will be American beers instead of German, French or Belgian. American brewers are producing beer that is just as good as any produced by those countries.

Maybe not forever, but for the forseeable forever.javascript:smilie(';)')

[Drinkman]

I'll admit I haven't spent a penny on any German or Belgian beers since the war, and have been pretty much of the same mind, Pubscout. However Steve makes a good point. One thing, though, about French beer. Admittedly I've never tried but a couple of them, but I thought they were pure crap.

[brewmonkey]

let us not forget that without French support we wouldn't have won the Revolutionary War against the British.

They "helped" out once 227 years ago and ever since then we have been bailing their asses out of the sling, The Great War, World War II and VietNam (Dien Bien Phu in 1954). Then once we bail them out of VietNam they show their gratitude by allowing the VC to use their rubber plantations as staging points for attacks on US troops.

[Brewdepest]

I thought a guy name Eiffel made the Statue of Liberty and delivered it via the Republic of France a little over a hundred years ago? I mean, really, if we're gonna bitch about bailing them out sixty years ago, then is not turnabout fairplay?

I dunno, maybe you guys don't like Our Lady Liberty. Or the few billion dollars the French have invested in the food companies that manufacture the rations our soldiers like to eat. Ok, maybe not like to eat, but eat because that's what we give them. Anyway, the French provide the money to make the food for our women and men in the services.

[pubscout]

The guy's name was Bartholdi, man, but what does that gift have to do with France's official thwarting of us in the last six months?

Truth be told, we thanked them in soldiers' blood for that Statue many times over during two world wars.

PS. I had my dog neutered last weekend. Now he barks in French.

[Brewdepest]

I don't think that's being fair at all. The French didn't support us because they had heinous, vile economic interests in Iraq, not because they were too afraid. I think it was understood by everyone that we were going to smash Iraq to tiny bits, so accusing an entire people (remember, not everyone in France is in the government, just like here) of being scared just has no logic behind it. That said, our own country had heinous, vile economic/social/political interests in attacking Iraq. I'm not debating whether we were wrong or right in defending those interests, but when you take your emotions out of it and start looking at facts and the ABC's of global politics, who was right and who was wrong in a moral sense has nothing to do with any of this. It all boils down to who benefits the most.
And why must we demonize a group of people who did nothing wrong to us other than not agree? Is the United States the boss of the world? What gives us the right to demand that other developed nations do our bidding? Would you rather that we trade a few dozen of their soldiers so that a few dozen more of ours lived? People died just the same, nationality is incidental. They didn't benefit from what we did and vice versa. It's all even. We didn't need the French, Germans, or Belgians, so get over it.

That being said, Georgie Boy is over with the Frogs and the Krauts right now mending fences. There are all sorts of other issues of equal importance but lesser glamour of which our countries stand on the same side.

That being said, what really does this have to do with beer anyway?

[pubscout]

Oh, I'll "get over it," as you so cavalierly put it. And I'll forgive.

But I'll never forget.

And I, and others like me, will voice our discontent with both our pocketbooks and our words until we feel our message has been sent, whether by boycotting beer or any other products produced by France and its businesses.

The French, through their elected officials, took a stand. I take mine.

Similarly, you are free to buy what you wish and posit whatever arguments you wish, whether connected to beer or not.

As to your question about what this has to do with beer--the starter topic above answers that question pretty clearly. That you have chosen to respond so passionately indicates that the topic is valid.

Your last post, however, has nothing whatsoever to do with beer. It is ironic indeed that you should choose to conclude your post with that question.

[Brewdepest]

Well, you got me there. Big poo on me.

I just think that:

a) Our country is not the boss of the world, and deciding that we should punish others for not agreeing with our own agendas is self-defeating and harmful to us in the long run.

b) Boycotts intending to target specific geological areas do not work anymore - you wind up hurting your local retailer, while the Belgians, Germans, and French (since when were they a beer entity anyway?) don't feel a thing. Instead, you harm Americans without inflicting any damage on Europeans. Trust me, by the time you get your message through, George and the boys will be back on the Love Boat with Chirac and your revolution did nothing but take some dollars out of the hands of American distributors, courtesy of our global economy.

c)I think that something, somewhere should be sacred and held above whatever the fad of the week is, and beer is it for me.

[pubscout]

Hardly. Despite geopolitical realities, I feel a great measure of personal accomplishment.

Depriving myself of German and Belgian brews (with most French beer, it was hardly a sacrifice--but I stopped drinking Canadian on principle as well) may have only impacted me. But, like James Brown, I feel good!

My boycott very likely went completely unnoticed by everyone involved in the money end, but it made me and others who joined me feel good.

Almost as good as the beers from which I abstained...

But my dollars went to other deserving Americans, the hard-working grossly underpaid and underrecognized American brewers who are, quite frankly making the best beer in the world.

If my patronage of their products doesn't assist the global economy, I'm doubly happy.

Still, I've enjoyed our exchange.

I raise a glass of American craft beer to you.

Cheers!

[Theakston]

During times of war and strife I think you should only drink Trappist beers. When it comes to politics they have the best idea: brew some great beer and shut the F@#$ up.

[pubscout]

And in times of peace their rule reduces to just the latter?

Shutting up seems to be a staple of the monastic order, but are you saying they only brew beer during strife and war?

With whom do they war?

I thought the Trappists were isolationists...

They sure do make good beer, but I'm drinking American (Allagash) at the moment....they make great beer as well.

[Theakston]

That post was intended as a "tongue in cheek" comment. Yes they shut up as part of their monastic order. That was part of the joke, but the point is they are above the squabbling about politics. As most brewers are in my experience.

Trappists are not total isolationists. One of the conditions of being a trappist brewery is that a large percentage of the profits go to local charities.

They also make damn fine beer. Alagash do too. But if the ideology of the brewers is more important to you than the quality of their product, then surely the trappist monks would be the most worthy of your support. And the profits are being spent on honourable causes. Who knows....you're favourite american micro may have been set up by some Saudi businessman who is funneling the profits to Al Quaeda.

[hopjack13]

i don't think arabs know too much about beer

[Brewdepest]

That is not true. I actually know a LOT of Muslim bartenders. They often come over from Turkey or Saudi Arabia and work in pricy hotel restaurants and get their chops up, then move back home or back to Europe to start their own bar or restaurant up, with the reasoning that if they can make it here, they can make it anywhere. They make the perfect servers because they often work harder than their American college kid co-workers, don't start much trouble because sometimes they are here illegally and don't wish to call attention to themselves, and since their religion forbids drinking alcohol, the bar owner's profits don't get washed down the bartender's throat. Also, they are never drunk on the job as many who share their occupation happen to be.
So, saying that Arabs don't know much about beer isn't really an accurate description, and when talking about Al Qaeda, well, they aren't exactly standing on the moral highground. They basically "steal" charity money for their own coffers, I doubt they'd have too many quibbles about throwing the cash from "The Great Satan's" fascination with brew right back at us.

[hopjack13]

name one muslim brewery:p

[Brewdepest]

And your point is....
what?

That a brewery financed by a Muslim has to be named "Mohammed's Ales?"

In my town, three different restaurants are owned by Muslim men. They are called The Crazy Tomato, Milano's, and Lorenzo's. They sell wine and each have full bars.

Just because something is owned by someone of a certain ethnicity, does not mean they must advertise it on the sign out front.

I'm sure that somewhere in this country, there is at least one micro owned by a Muslim. Money is money, and if you're funding terrorism (and this is purely hypothetical, nobody is actually claiming that beer funds terrorism - pot however...well, let's just say the marijuana in my gas tank supports terror), then you don't care if the cash is coming from selling kiddie porn on the net or having a bake sale at the local mosque. God will wash your sins clean since you are following His will.:D

[hopjack13]

my point is ............. muslims aren't known for thier beer!!!!
terrorist maybe , but beer?
who ever heard of someone saying " i think i'll have me an allah ale or a laat lager"

so no i don't think arabs know too much about beer, it's not in their culture!

[Brewdepest]

Good point.
Except we're not talking about a Muslim guy actually brewing the beer by hand himself. We're talking about one being smart enough to figure out that he can make some payolla by buying a brewery and then hiring people who are not Arabic (or Turkish, or Indonesian, because most Muslims are not Arabic) and who do know how to brew to do it for him.
Because that's what most people who own restaurants and bars do. They know the bare minimum that they have to and hire more experienced people to do the work for them.
I never said, "Arabs make some damn fine beer!"
I just think that it is completely possible for one to own a microbrewery.

[Aske]

prrrrrr!
just buy best beer, dont care where it comes from.

i know it doesnt come from usa, anyway

[hopjack13]

sure it does, it's called stone brew you probably don't have access to it. what ever country your from i imagine bud , miller or coors are the only american beers you know of. so it's conceivable that americans don't make the best beer from that stand point, however untrue. i understand you distress on the other hand as i can not stand miller , bud or coors , myself and most of us here feel the same way.

[cburton71]

Just my 2 cents worth, but if your boycott is a movement towards hurting these country's breweries by economic means, then you may be doing yourself and other 'Americans' more harm than good.
These breweries are going to keep brewing, distributing and selling beer regardless of your opinion or your boycott. And the money that you are not spending is coming out of not just their pockets, but folks on this side of the pond as well. Everyone from the distributor (their reps, warehouse employees, drivers, delivery personel) to your Federal, Local and State government who will lose out on the tax revenue (Did I really just say that!) generated by the sale of these imported brews.

[Theakston]

Amen to that.
There's enough fine quality breweries having to close or abandon their more esoteric products due to economic pressures. Let's not loose any more because of this stupidity.

[fretlessman71]

...just where are you from? And what "beers" are you thinking about when you think of American beer? Because if it IS only Bud, Coors and Miller, you're missing out. There are HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of terrific breweries here across the pond that just don't get the press like the "big three" do. Rest assured that nobody here who really cares about beer even bothers with those companies. So be careful when you "tar us all with the same brush," as our friend Richard English likes to say. (You might want to ask Richard what HE thinks of American beer, considering that he's British.)

And if you're only on this site trying to stir up unrest and hatred, you will be found out in time, and DULY IGNORED.

[Richard English]

I have been away for a couple of weeks - firstly in Jersey CI (a good few pints of Tipsy Toad went down a treat) and in Malta.

The Cisk brewery in Malta does not produce any Real Ale (not yet, anyway) but when I went to visit them they were good enough to take some of an experimental brew (not unlike a Young's SLA) and serve it to my group - before it was pasteurised. I told them they should sell it as a BCA and thus to create for Cisk a niche market of Real Ale in the Mediterranean.

Anyway, having caught up on several threads I should like to comment on two points here.

Firstly I know of several Muslim breweries and have drunk their beers. In Egypt a large amount of beer is brewed and drunk by locals and visitors alike.

Secondly, US beers. When I first visited the USA (in 1979) the only beer I found that had any merit whatsoever was Anchor Steam and that was only available in and around San Francisco. On my most recent visit (sadly some seven years ago now) I found several quite good beers - although none that I would have bought from choice had there been alternatives such as Young's or Fuller's. Sam Adams is one I recall having drunk in Maryland.

Now I can buy Goose Island IPA from my local Safeway and always have a couple of bottles in stock. It is, by any standards, a fine beer. Sadly I have not been able to sample some of the beers that are spoken so highly of on this board but I have no reason to doubt that they, too, are of high quality.

It just amazes me that, in the UK, ther are people stupid enough to pay more for a bottle of Budweiser than they would for a bottle of Fullers! The power of promotion, of course.

[hopjack13]

muslim brewerys??? WOW! see the only time i take my foot out of my mouth is to change feet.:p i know several arabic people who are muslim and from what they said (and i asked if there was ever a muslim brewery they'd heard of) no that the koran strictly forbided alcohol. so i assumed they probably don't know too much about beer. did you try their beer? was it any good?

[Aske]

<<And if you're only on this site trying to stir up unrest and hatred, you will be found out in time, and DULY IGNORED>>

it seemed somebody else wanted to do this...
i'm italian.

[Richard English]

I drank a lot of beer when I was in Egypt - they have a couple of main brands. Neither is much good but it's cool and alcoholic.

Some Egyptians I met did not drink (like some Britons). However, many did (and spirits as well as beer and wine).

Having said which, there is no pub or bar culture in Cairo as there is in many other cities. The cafes tend to serve tea and the residents congregate in them while smoking hookahs.

Most restaurants, though, serve alcohol just as do restaurants in any other city.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Aske
<<And if you're only on this site trying to stir up unrest and hatred, you will be found out in time, and DULY IGNORED>>

it seemed somebody else wanted to do this...
i'm italian.

Then relax. You'll find plenty of great beer from America; all you have to do is look for it. Doesn't SOMEBODY other than the great swillmakers export beer to Italy?

Remember: We're the first ones to admit that most of us came from your side of the Atlantic. Keeping this in mind, wouldn't it stand to some degree of reason that all American beer is just a copy of something else that existed in Europe before we got here? I would imagine there are very few styles that are 100% indigenous to the US.

On the other hand, this gives us an interesting advantage over other countries (and I've heard this point made just recently): We have no tradition to uphold in regards to beer; therefore we can make any kind we want and it can still be thought of as "american". Sierra Nevada Brewing Co. has a Bigfoot Barelywine that will knock your socks off (if you're into really big, malty, alcoholic beers), and it tastes NOTHING like Bud. Most Bud drinkers who have been fortunate enough to have a sip have commented that it was really good, but they'd probably never order such a beer. Well, OK, vive le difference I suppose (sp?), but it's still a shame.

Tell you what: Name a few of your favorite brews (from WHEREVER) and maybe some of your favorite styles and we'll come up with a list of our favorite american varieties of such. Maybe you'll be able to get a few of them not far from you, and then you'll have a better idea of what we consider "American" beer to be.

And I'll stop being rude now. Sorry.

[Richard English]

Quote "...I would imagine there are very few styles that are 100% indigenous to the US..."

In fact, I suspect that the one "true" American style is A-B chemical fizz and its clones. That's not to be rude, you understand, it's just a fact that chemical fizz beers are, so far as I can find out, a US invention and one that the rest of the world has taken up with alacrity since the product is so hugely profitable.

Budweiser was orignally a US copy of a German copy of a Czech beer, of course. However, the adulteration of the product; its pasteurisation; its mind-blowing chilliness and its saturated gasiness - these things have together made it as American as Coca Cola.

[Theakston]

Alaskan Smoked Porter: Richard they sell this at Safeway! (in the UK not, unfortunately on the East Coast of the USA)
I think this is a US invention. Amongst many.

Steam Beer (lager brewed at an Ale temperature - necessity in this case being Frank Zappa's band) Another US invention.

IPA styles as agressively hopped as they are over here are a US invention. Some European brewers are now using Cascade Hops (as used in Sierra Nevada). Copying a US invention.

Brewers over here are inventing new brews all the time. Some great, some not so great. Look at Dogfish-head's king Midas or raison d'etre for some outrageous new styles. World Wide Stout, 120 minute IPA ( at over 20% ABV! ) Hop Rod Rye from Bear Republic. La Folie from New Belgium. The list is endless (well almost).

Richard you need to come back and do some beer hunting over here. The USA is leading the way these days and I say this as an ex-brit who loves his CAMRA real ale.

Also when I saw Michael Jackson in March he stated that quite frankly Fullers 1845 would no longer be made were it not for the American market. And I know you love that one! The same is true of many Belgian ales. So we are not all bad over here Chemical swill or not.

[Richard English]

My posting was not intended to be critical, merely a factual response to fretlessman71 who said "...I would imagine there are very few styles that are 100% indigenous to the US.
..."

My point was the A-B, horrible though it is, is actually an indigenous US style. I am, of course, delighted to hear that there are more US styles and I will certainly try Alaskan Smoked Porter.

As regards steam beer - it is often considered and American style but I don't know its history well enough to say whether it originated in the USA. Certainly it exists in Australia (Perth) and in the UK (Newquay).

IPA is a British beer style which was originally at least as heavily hopped as are US IPAs today. Sadly, in England today the name is now commonly applied to ordinary light ales with nowhere near the right level of bitterness. Most of the American IPAs I have tried are better but they are a recreation of a 19th century British style, not a new American style.

Your comment about 1845 is interesting; I was not aware that it was so popular over there. I can say that it is sometimes in short supply here so somebody's drinking it!

[hopjack13]

Most of the American IPAs I have tried are better but they are a recreation of a 19th century British style,

im not sure thats entirely true as the 120min i.p.a. from the dogfish head brewery is continually hopped for 120 minuets then dry hop daily for about a month (as far as i know) thats never been done before. it wieghs in at over 20% abv and over 120 i.b.u.'s and brewed at 45 degrees plato (what ever that means?)
it's what we think of here as an extreme beer. there are a lot of extreme beers comming out in the u.s. now.

I will certainly try Alaskan Smoked Porter.
i'll send you one if you like, that beer is outstanding!!!!

[Richard English]

Quote, "... wieghs in at over 20% abv and over 120 i.b.u.'s and brewed at 45 degrees plato..."

That's certainly extreme. Goose Island IPA, which I had assumed was a typical US IPA is around 6% abv and 70 units of bitterness. This is very similar the the English IPAs of a century ago.

"Extreme" beers have been in existence for a long time but I have noticed that it seems to be in the USA where the production of ultra-high abv beers (18+%) has becomes something of a speciality. Of course, it is only in recent years that yeasts that will tolerate such high levels of alcohol have been cultured. In my early drinking lifetime beers with alcohol levels of 7% were considered exceptionally strong and 10% almost unbelievable.

So yes, maybe the 20% and 120 ibu beer is an American style, even if it one that has its roots in Europe.

My only reservation is - can you really drink a sherry-strength beer in any manner other that the way in which you would drink a sherry? You certainly couldn't glug it by the pint!

[Theakston]

This thread has certainly veered off topic! But it's fun and I'll continue.

Hopjack, yes that is my point entirely. Although they are based on an old British style they are a radical departure in many ways.

In some ways they are truer to the original style than IPAs currently found in England, in that the original IPAs were higher in alcohol and loaded with hops to help preserve the beer. Once that was no longer necessary, both of these were lowered in the UK. I would say Marston's Pedigree or Timothy Taylors Landlord were good examples of the English style today - any other's Richard? These make for better session beers.

The USA versions are loaded with hops. And heavily dry hopped. I don't think the original IPAs would have been dry hopped as it was for their preservative qualities rather than the aroma. The aroma would have been lost by the time the beer got to its destination. They certainly weren't as strong as the 120 minute IPA as it is only recently that we have been able to get yeast to go to that level (and one wonders where this may stop - are 30% - 40% on the horizon? would that put distillers out of business?!)

I'd like to think that the USA can be identified by these beers rather than the mega-crap (that we could always blame on the Czechs - unfairly - for inventing pilsener, or the Germans for inventing lager yeast). Unfortunately you are right. Most will continue to think of the USA as exporters of crap.

Aske: Unfortunately the same can be said of Italy. Peroni is all most people ever see. I am just learning that the craft beer industry is gaining strength there too! (I hope to investigate this for myself in the fall). If you have some insights and recomendations why not post them over in the Beer and Travel section.

Cheers!

[Richard English]

Quote "...I would say Marston's Pedigree or Timothy Taylors Landlord were good examples of the English style today - any other's Richard?..."

There are plenty. Many brewers now call their ordinary bitter "IPA". Greene King, for example. They are not IPAs at all (although perfectly good beers) and this explains to an extent why people are confused.

Genuine IPAs of the nature of Goose Island are almost unheard of in the UK nowadays - which is why I buy Goose Island.

[Theakston]

This just in:
Dogfish expect their
World Wide Stout to be distributed in the UK come September.
Apparently being carried by the Safeway grocery chain.

So Richard you can get to try one of these mega brews. Hope it doesn't catch on with the Tennants Super crowd!

WorldWide Stout
The world's strongest dark beer.
It is brewed using six different yeast strains over seven months and then aged.
Dark, rich, roasty, and complex, World Wide Stout has more in common with a fine port
than a can of cheap, mass-marketed beer (released November 1 each year...
very limited availability). Bottled in 12 oz. bottles (because that's about as much as most of us could handle!)
23.04 % ABV for 2002!!!!!

[Richard English]

I live just a mile from the nearest Safeway...!

[detlef degner]

Sorry,I`m a German .
Sorry again,I´m a german beer freak,I have never read such a nonsense about beer and Germany.
God bless all brewers.
God bless all independent beer hunters,- lovers,-drinkers etc. and all ignorant US realbeer writers
Detlef
:mad:

[steveh]

Don't lump all of us Yanks in the same pot, Detlef - I'll probably be celebrating our Independence Day with some Dinkel Acker Pils, some Spaten Helles, maybe some Belgian Wit, and - most likely - some Goose Island Summertime.

Prosit to embracing diversity!

S.

[Theakston]

Welcom Detlef.
Just to add to the post above. I just re-read the thread and, to be honest, there is hardly anything written about German beer apart from the original post suggesting the boycott. And most of the other posters, myself included, were against the boycott. Not because USA beers are necessarily inferior ( they are getting better all the time ), but because we need to support diversity everywhere. Germany included.

This means we need to support the styles that are threatened with extinction, while the multinational brewery chains swallow them up in their attempt to turn us all into drinkers of yellow fizz that only loosely resembles a pilsener.

I hope you can look beyond this thread and will share your knowledge so we can learn more about the more interesting, lesser known German styles.

Cheers.

[hopjack13]

Sorry,I`m a German

apology accepted def leppard we wont hold it against you!

[detlef degner]

fine, thanks for mails.
I was celebrating your Independence Day with excellent porter beer from Poland,heavy baltic porter
Detlef

[pubscout]

You want to try a super baltic porter, try to get hold of Heavyweight (NJ) Brewing's award-winning Perkuno's Hammer. It's a big, big baltic porter that never fails to satisfy.

Especially if it's America you're celebrating....


Read the review in the library at www.realbeer.com!

[Herb Ninja]

Fine boycott belgian beer as well. I'll drink twice as much it doesn't bother me. How many lambic breweries do we have in the U.S.A? No real ones that I know of. I certainly am not going to never drink lambic because they wouldn't help or support our war. I love Cantillion and I certainly would never boycott them because of this war on iraq.

Bush is not my leader. Bush may have power, but to me hes no more important then any American. War on terrorism tied into a war on some drugs, give us a break. A 1 billion dollar approved anti-some drugs campaign. Wasting our money... I won't call anybody elses president or dictator their leader either. We all have a right to choose our own leader(s). Just because the majority voted for somebody doesn't mean I supported that majority. I don't want republicans or democrats, I could just say republicrats to run our country now or ever again. Its going downhill with them, most do not have a true sense, realization or support for liberty. This is all coming from somebody who wasn't an anti-war protestor, mind you.

I'm not going to hold every citizen of a country responsible for their governments actions, nor every brewery. You have that right to do so, and I support your having that right.

I will say to you your boycott only strengthens my will for belgian beer and maybe even german beer. Id rather boycott dupont or the companies supporting the partnership for a drug free america then these innocent foreign breweries.

"They used to burn witches. Today we laugh at them. Today we jail people for marijuana. Tomorrow they'll laugh at us." --Robert "Rosie" Rowbotham

[pubscout]

Your call, dude. That's what choice is all about. I made mine. Same thing goes for weed. You want to suck hemp--or Drano, for that matter--it's your choice. As long as you know the consequences of your choice, I'll assume you're a big boy.

But don't sell US Belgian style brewers short. New Glarus, New Belgium, Ommegang, Allagash, Victory, Heavyweight and many others are producing superb Belgians.

Might not hurt your sensibilities--or your wallet--to try 'em.

Cheers!

[Herb Ninja]

You want to suck hemp--or Drano, for that matter--it's your choice.

I dunno how you went from hemp to drano so fast, but whatever dude if those two are at all compareable to yourself I hardly care to try and teach you otherwise. I assume your a big boy and you know better though. :rolleyes:

[pubscout]

Now there's an original retort....

Can't be the lambic that causes that.
Must be something else.

It's your boat, sailor. Float it however you want.

[Herb Ninja]

Actually its the lack of lambic that causes that. :p

Nice name by the way. Peace-

[Sassy]

I think there is a Muslim brewery called Murrey Brewery.

[brewmonkey]

http://leb.net/pipermail/lexington-net/2000-July/002221.html

[hopjack13]

im just amazed as hell that muslims even brew beer , i have a few muslim friends that wont even touch the stuff. i wonder how long they've been doing it?? and more importantly are they any good at it??

as far as boycotts....well im boycotting bud , miller and coors! hini , becks, corona, fosters.....ect ect ect.

[pubscout]

Actually, Foster's Bitter (in the green can) is a decent brew. But you're right about the "canoe beers."

And if there's a beer called He-Brew ("the Chosen beer"), it's not hard to envision a Muslim response, is it?

[hopjack13]

i've seen the he brew but never tried it...... any good?
as for the fosters.........well if i have to then i'll keep the bitter in mind , as a last resort of course, but its good to know it's okay to drink.

[pubscout]

Couldn't tell you...never had it.

Someday, maybe, when I can convince my liquor locker to sell me a single bottle.

[evilredlight]

And just what do you think of all the weapons of mass destruction that were found by good ol' boy bush. Good thing he got in there and bombed that place to pieces, they almost destroyed the bushes monopoly on mass destruction and pollution. I wonder when he will doctor some spy satellite photos to show that Canada is hiding WMD's in the Alberta oilsands.
And what about that canadian beer, we should boycott it aswell, no great loss there as it is not that good anyway. I can drink only drink maybe 1 or 2 before getting to drunk to shoot my guns

[pubscout]

WMD's? Man, this is a beer forum! Stick to IBU's and ABV's! We've got enough three-letter acronyms to worry about.

And boycott whatever you like, man. But boycotting stuff you don't like isn't a boycott.

It's called discrimination.

People do it all the time.

[Herb Ninja]

So your implying that you like french beer!?

[Sassy]

I am going to Boycott working. We should not have to work to make money. We should do the barter system like in the good old days. Work sucks.

[Sassy]

Brewmonkey-

Very interesting on the Murree Brewery.

[pubscout]

You like Lambic? Get hold of a new beer by New Belgium Brewing (Ft. Collins, CO).

It's a blend of a cherry lambic made at Brouwerij Boon in Belgium and a specially created Belgian golden ale made at NBBC.

It's called Transatlantique Kriek, and it's a knockout.

It's reviewed in more depth at www.ratebeer.com.

[Herb Ninja]

oooo, yummy. I like boon kreik. Problem is the only lambics I can get on Maui are lindemans(if they could be called lambic.) Thanks for the recomendation though, next time i'm in an area I can find it ill try and taste this Transatlantique Kriek. I see your review is the top one at ratebeer.com, heh. Maybe you could send me a bottle or know a place that could ship it to hawaii? Probably end up costing me 20$ for a bottle so i'm unsure if its worth it. Sounds good though. :D

[Mersault]

Hey,

Speaking as an angel descending from Bear-heaven, I want to make some remarks about this strange relation between the last war and beer.

Although, some people here tend to shout out loud and proclaim that some American brewed beers aren’t that bad and that some might even resemble a fraction of the rich and complex taste of European brewed beers, there arguments wouldn't make any sense to any true beer-lover, just tasting one of so many superb Belgian beers.
Belgians have had a long history of domination and occupation by foreign states, and maybe it shouldn't be a surprise to anybody, that these tiny people are now, of all Europeans, most critical for the Americas present foreign politics.
I guess that we have been directly confronted repeatedly with the kind of populist nonsense, the neo-conservatives like to sell to you, poor Americans.
It kind of resembles the "Judas"-beer, the first taste is very promising and exciting (a bit like Duvel), but then a split second later, the taste disappears and your left with a shitty taste, as most of you must have now concerning this brave war of yours.
It is "nice" to try to make these very strong beers (18° +), but then again I would rather prefer a bottle of absinthe.
Good beer is all about the details, the subtleties, the complexity, the surprise, the overall character and the diversity, as much as it is a way of live and thinking, to seek perfection.
In contrary to what I said before, I truly belief that there are some excellent American beers (which can hardly be said of German or English beers),
and if you can't except the critical standpoint made by your Belgian friends, I think it is a just idea, to boycott these Belgian beers, since they probably aren't compatible with you, just like these ever missing WMD.

[Richard English]

Wow! What set that off?

I will comment only the inaccuracies, not the prejudices.

I have never seen a comment here that all European beers are excellent and that all American beers are rubbish - which is what is implied in the communication. Indeed, I am on record as having said that there are now some very good American beers (more than once I have lauded Goose Island's products). There are some awful ones as well - just as there are some awful Belgian, German and English beers.

It is, of course, quite wrong to say "...there are some excellent American beers (which can hardly be said of German or English beers), ..." and I can assume only that this correspondent has never drunk anything other than German or English chemical fizz (which, sadly, does exist - Carling being just one example).

One of the nice things about this board is that we are generous to a fault in accepting others' opinions but that does not mean that we have to agree with them!

[hops99]

I too, love Belgian beers, and admire the passion and talent that so many Belgian brewers possess. From what I've seen, I think the popularity of Belgian beer in the U.S. has been growing exponentially in recent years, and the popularity of Belgian-Style U.S. breweries such as Ommegang and New Belgium are representative of that fact. However, making a blanket statement that Belgium's beers are better than Germany's, England's, and those found here in the U.S. is a tad isolationist, don't you think?

What makes the craft beer WORLD so great is the diversity found in the better beer countries - principally all of those mentioned above. Let's leave the politics out of good beer, shall we?

[Mersault]

I agree, my arguments were not all that sound,
I guess I just expressed my frustration about this silly boycott

[chazwicke]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mersault
[B]
Good beer is all about the details, the subtleties, the complexity, the surprise, the overall character and the diversity, as much as it is a way of live and thinking, to seek perfection.

I can agree whole heartedly with this statement. And I would never consider boycotting any good beer.
:)

[hopjack13]

im still boycotting bud, miller , and coors and have been for quite sometime! ;)

[hopjack13]

some bars will not allow talk of politics or religion.....maybe we shouldn't here either ?

[Richard English]

It takes more courage to admit to an error of judgement than it does to defend one.

I am looking forward to reading further postings from you.

[Herb Ninja]

No good english beers? Could have fooled me. Some of my favorite beers are english, good old cask ales. I don't judge a countries beer by their major exports just as I hope nobody would do the same for America. I realize its often true that the piss beer is the leading one in almost every country. Sad, but that doesn't mean all their beer sucks. Anyway.... Peace- ;)

[axis714]

WOW....I just took the time to read this entire thread and it has been about the most interesting posts ive seen here thusfar.However, the original post was truthful and well put. I would highly disagree about boycotting beer from the most superb region of brewers,BUT i have family spilled blood in that territory and a grandpa who left a limb in France to give them back their homeland which was most assuredly "overthrown" at that point.....a little appreciation of their efforts would have been expected with recent events and they feel betrayed by these countries they helped tremendously. So I do understand Pubscouts frustration and i agree whole heartedly that the original post was truthful and only shows the deliberate disrespect, deceit, and ungreatfulness of their leaders and their policies....allthough ours are foul at times, we as americans feel obligated to support our friends {ALLIES } and only wish the same in return......But going after the brewers i think is an insignificant point.

[detlef degner]

do you understand the frustration of a simple german beer freak,too?
Politics and beer,believe me,even Germans understand the point.
cheers
Detlef,Germany

[hopjack13]

not....THE detlef degner ? where's stefan? :D

[Bryant]

Pubscout, I am an American and appreciate your patriotism but remember a country's government, their industries and their people aren't always synonymous in their beliefs. I personally know some Europeans who strongly support what America is doing.
Aside from that fact, whether we like it or not, the line is extremely fuzzy between economies of almost all industrialized nations. We are truly becoming a "global economy." Mercedes may be known as a German car, but it is owned by Daimler-Chrysler which is a merger of Dodge and Mercedes. In fact, you can't get more "down home American" than The University of Alabama's "Crimson Tide" football team (though they certainly did struggle this year) and the University itself, but Tuscaloosa Alabama is not only home of UofA but also a Mercedes Benz plant.
Shunning an industry or person because of their government's ideals is not very fair to them and it can also affect fellow Americans as well as yourself. I personally have some Malay (Malaysia) internet friends who are muslim and they never mention anything about the war in Iraq. In fact, they are familiar enough with the Christian Holidays that I normally receive a Christmas e-card from them every year. Now that's not to say that all Muslim Malays value their internet friendship with Americans more than the conflicts of their respected governments and religions, but some certainly do and I can attest to that fact personally. At the same time, I do not look down on my friends because their government doesn't agree with mine and we have different religions. My Malay friends are beautiful people and I feel very lucky to have them as friends.
Now that I am on a roll.....the same applies with Chinese. I have more Chinese ICQ (messaging program) friends than I do from any other culture. Many are in mainland China, some are in Taiwan (Taiwanese are 100% Chinese,) and some are in Malaysia which has a fairly large Chinese population. While one of the reasons I have so many Asian friends is because I work bad hours and most Americans are asleep when I am online, I feel very lucky that I know such warm and honest people like the Chinese are. The Chinese government is communist, most Chinese don't know your favorite football team, your favorite beer or your favorite tv show, but they are from China, not from Mars. They wake up, go to work, go home, spend time with their families etc. etc. just like we do.
I realize I am getting waaaaaay off topic here, but I know that had I not had an open mind about different people and dfferent cultures, I would not have the one thing that is most important in my life, namely my wife Harumi. She is Japanese and was a student studying here in America when I met her on the net. We have been married for over 3.5 years now and I have barely even raised my voice at her, nor she to me in those years. She is the most wonderful person in the world and I wouldn't take a million bucks for her.
The fact that I have an Asian wife and many Asian net friends doesn't make me like Americans any less. In fact, it makes me appreciate our culture even more. I enjoy being able to talk about football (tackle football) American beers, Corvettes and other topics that are more common subjects for Americans than other cultures.


Wow!! Did I write all that ? One point I wanted to make is that when you shut yourself out from other people, businesses and products, you are not just hurting them, but hurting yourself and others not directly related to the corporate headquarters as well. I work for a Panasonic battery plant. It is Japanese owned. If all Americans all of a sudden got pissed off at Japan and stopped buying Panasonic batteries, I would be in the unemployment line.
I don't dislike someone because they decided to boycott German products, products from the Middle-East (like gasoline) or products from Wal-Mart because they feel we are becoming too corporate. This is a free country and I believe we have the right to choose what we believe in, what we purchase and with whom we associate with, but for me I have found that this is truly a small world and that there are good people and good products that come from all over the world. Panasonic batteries sold in the US, for example are made right here in my town just like that Mercedes Benz sold here in the US could help give the resources to make a man a proud father of a Medical Doctor or Engineer or.... whatever that graduated from UofA.


ok.....I'm done now...... please excuse my verbosity.


Bryant

[pubscout]

OK....but amid the paean to multiculturalism, I think I missed your main point. Is it that my boycott hurts me more than the country I'm boycotting? If so, a little masochism on this issue feels good to me.

Of course, there are good people of all races and cultures in the world. That much is not contested by my boycott. But there are bad people, too. And I consider any country that puts my countrymen at risk as bad, especially when we've saved that country's ass not once--but twice.

I am happy, however, that you seem to have found your soulmate. I'll drink to both of you--with an Allagash Tripel (Maine).

[Herb Ninja]

Ive said just about everything I wanted to here, just one thing to add.

I hope that people from other countries do not blame me for the actions of my countries government that I do not support. I hope they don't hold me responsible for the actions of my other countrymen. Thats not fair. I'll take responibility for myself, but don't serve me a plate of justice that belongs to another. Immature is the man who would blame all the people of a country for the actions of a few of those people. Boycott who you wish though, I definitly support your right to do so. I'm not implying that you did, but in the future I would support your not trying to punish a group when that justice should be applied to an individual. With that being said, those who voted for the elected leader of their country are partially responsible for the actions that person does with the power you helped to grant them. Peace, HN- :)

[Bryant]

Originally posted by pubscout and in quotes:

"OK....but amid the paean to multiculturalism, I think I missed your main point. Is it that my boycott hurts me more than the country I'm boycotting? If so, a little masochism on this issue feels good to me."

I often don't have a main point when I get involved in a lengthy post or reply. I like to think of myself as being reasonably intelligent, but often times that asset is nullified by my (ahem !!) attention problem. I have a reasonable amount of ADD and I am too lazy to proof-read my posts and replies, so the long ones could start with politics and end with how bad my dogs shed on my couch. : / The effort was there though. >:P~


"Of course, there are good people of all races and cultures in the world. That much is not contested by my boycott. But there are bad people, too. And I consider any country that puts my countrymen at risk as bad, especially when we've saved that country's ass not once--but twice."

Your views are different than mine, but who is to say who is right and who is wrong ? My love of "people," different cultures etc. doesn't make me some type of liberalistic passivist. In fact, I lean more toward Libertarian learnings less their severe lack of international policy.
When you are speaking of saving a country's ass, I certainly assume you are talking about France. I don't hate French people, though they seem to hate us. Unfortunately, if you remove their wonderful tourist attraction Paris, their famous artwork and designer bullshit the country has very little to offer in the grand scale of the world economy. Having said that, I do know one young French woman who is very pleasant and grounded.

"I am happy, however, that you seem to have found your soulmate. I'll drink to both of you--with an Allagash Tripel (Maine)."

Well thank you. I couldn't possibly express how lucky I am in the wife department. She is great and an extension of me as I am of her. Tonight I have Yuengling B&T and Belhaven St. Andrews Ale.

Cheers !!

Bryant

[skahtboi]

Originally posted by Herb Ninja
Ive said just about everything I wanted to here, just one thing to add.

I hope that people from other countries do not blame me for the actions of my countries government that I do not support. I hope they don't hold me responsible for the actions of my other countrymen. Thats not fair. I'll take responibility for myself, but don't serve me a plate of justice that belongs to another. Immature is the man who would blame all the people of a country for the actions of a few of those people. Boycott who you wish though, I definitly support your right to do so. I'm not implying that you did, but in the future I would support your not trying to punish a group when that justice should be applied to an individual. With that being said, those who voted for the elected leader of their country are partially responsible for the actions that person does with the power you helped to grant them. Peace, HN- :)

Herb Ninja:

I have revisted this post multiple times, looking for what it was exactly that I wanted to say. You stated, quite eloquently, I might add, exactly what was coursing through my noggin. Very well put. Thank you!