1st AG batch done, now questions ;-)

[croc4]

So I did my first AG batch yesterday. All went well, but I did have a question about sparging

Here is the recipie I used (from memory)

8.5lbs of 2 row malt
.5 Lbs Biscuit Malt
8oz Chocolate malt
2oz Gambrinus honey
2 oz Belg Aromatic
2 oz Kent Goldings (1oz bittering and finishing)
California Ale Yeast

OG came to 1.059 with ~4.8 Gal


So when I sparged I used .5 gal of water per pound of grain. I have read /heard that you should stop sparging once the runnings hit 1.010. So the question is would you hit this (1.010) before using all your sparge water?,
I used all I calculated (.5gal / pound).

And what is the way others measure this, I used a gal jug that I filled and transfered to the boil pot, And made ~ 6 trips, so would I take 6 measurements?
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[toneyc]

The directions that I've been following just say to run off wort until you reach 6-6.25 gallons. Of course, that could explain why I've missed my gravities about half the time.

:eek:
Toney.

[Moondoggy]

From what I have read you are to calculate the amount of water the grain will hold and utilize enough sparge/mash water that will give the desired amount of wort.

So, if I had 10 lbs of grain and each pound of grain held .5 quart of water I would have a total of 1.25 gallons of water held in the grains when done.

So, if I wanted to start my boil with 6 gallons of wort I would need 7.25 total gallons of water to mash and sparge and boil with to end up with a final 5 gallon batch.

My guess is, if within these parameters when you are sparging you take the sample of wort gravity.

If you fall under a certain number you stop the sparge to avoid off flavors.

I am also under the impression that if you hit your water calculations correctly the chance of falling under the limit of desired gravity is minimal.

I just did my first batch sparge so I am no expert.

How close am I to right guys?

[croc4]

I transfered my first AG batch to secondary and to my dismay it only can down to 1.030 (from 1.059). So I have been trying to figure out what went wrong. I was expecting to finish in the mid teens.

The two items that I think are the culprits are
1. water PH
2. Temp.

I tested my PH level of the water I used and found that the reading came in under 4 (at least my paper did not show a reading, it has a range of 4.2-5.7 ish). How much does PH levels contribute to poor conversion?, would it alone account for the difference I am seeing?

As for temps, my thermometer was reading 152 during the mash. So I thought I was ok. But in thinking over the process, it is quite possible that the therm is/was not entirely accurate, so I am going to pick up a better one.

Any advise / wisdom from the pros?

Thanks,

Croc4
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[ray m]

Croc, I think you mash temp was fine. Did you do the iodine test to ensure conversion? How long was your mash time?

I have never worried about ph---I use bottles spring water and all goes well. A couple other things to consider are:
a) the health & amount of yeast you used
b) what was your fermentation temp?

too cool of temps (fermentation) would result in your yeast pooping out. I know you've brewed before, since you've been on this board for alittle while, so I won't bore you with that. I suspect your yeast is the culprit. Try repitching into the secondary with a fresh package of yeast.

I hope I assisted you!!:)

[croc4]

Thanks Ray,

My mash time was 60min. I believe the yeast was fine..., I pitched in a starter(that hadn't quite started off because I was late getting it ready) plus a vial of california ale yeast. I didn't do an iodine test, but that is a good suggestion, I was kind of shooting from the hip a bit on this first batch.... I will have to pick some up from the drug store.

My second batch was done the same way (temp, water), but this time I let it mash for 120mins because I was slow in getting the sparge water up to temp. (bit of a theme going ;-) )So this will be a good test case. Plus I pitched the wort onto the yeast cake from the previous batch.
It started bubbling within an hour after.


Croc4
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[ray m]

Hmmmm....if your yeast was good, plus you pitched onto a fairly fresh yeast cake on the 2nd batch, I too would say yeast was pro'ly OK. 60 min. mash time should be more than sufficient, so I don't think you undermashed (your grain bill doesn't sound like you would even the remotest problem in that area).

I'm stumped. Anyone else comprising our brew brethren want to take a stab at this??

[Fast_Eddy]

Temp makes a big difference but that should be ok at 152 F.

pH can make a big difference but you don't really know what your pH was. If it really was in the low-middle 4's that could be a problem since mash pH shouldn't really go below 5.2. 4.5 is hugely different from 5.5 since pH is a logarithmic scale( ie 4.5 has 10's more free H+ than 5.5).

Seems like you may have made a mostly complex sugar wort by way of conditions that favor alpha amylase. Ale yeasts can't ferment the more complex sugars.

If it happens again we should worry about it. Chalk it up to first time mystery.

[croc4]

Thanks Fast_Eddy,

I'll see how the second batch turns out. I think I'm going to pick up some pilsner enzyme from my LHBS to eat away at the complex sugars, it should drop the FG a few point and make the beer more drinkable (aka stronger ;-) ). I tried the sample after taking the FG reading and it wasn't too bad considering the high FG, but droping it a few points can't hurt ;-)


Thanks again Ray, Fast_Eddy
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[Fast_Eddy]

For the extremely pedantic there is another possibility----

Many yeast strains have shown a tendency to stop fermenting (if large amount of mono- and disaccharides are present) once the simplest sugars have been consumed. In all truth - the honey could've caused a stuck ferment(OK guys - don't start protesting - I'm just passing along some of my erudite knowledge here) if it was primarily fructose/glucose/sucrose.

Just an FYI...

[croc4]

Just a quick update.

My second batch was done with the primary ferm, and taking a gravity reading found that it too was high (OG 1.047, FG 1.024).

So I believe my mash temp is the culprit. I'm going to mash at a little lower temp, plus I have a much better thermometer to check the readings.


I picked up some Amylase Enzyme and added it to both batches,
they have since started bubbling away again. So this should bring the FG down a bit more so they are not total losses.
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[bierboy]

Unless there is something wrong with your thermometer then 152 is a good mash temp. Have you looked at your hydrometer and the temp you are taking your readings at? At 75% effeciency your OG should be at 1.052. What is your fermentation temp?

[croc4]

I'm pretty sure, my thermometer is the issue. Of course I won't
be certain of this until I do another batch ;-)

When I took my hydro readings the sample temp was in the 60-70F range, and then I adjusted the reading based on the temp.

My fermentation temps have been in the ~65-75F range.

I have gone over my process and the only thing that I can put my finger on (that makes sense) is that my mash temp was too high,
and my thermometer is not very accurate.
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[bierboy]

If you have a faulty thermometer I can see such a problem happening. However, 152 is near optimum. I would test your thermometer by placing it in vigorously boiling water or just buy a new one.

[croc4]

I just went ahead and ordered a new one. It is something I had been meaning to do for a while, but before going to AG is was not as important to be that exact with temps so I let it slide.
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[bierboy]

Let us know if that solves the problem.

[Fast_Eddy]

An easy thermo. test is to put it in boiling water - it should read 212 F and then into water that is about 80% ice by volume(swirl it around for 5 minutes or so) - it should read very close to (if not exactly) 32 F.

One thing to be careful about is getting a good mix of the mash so that the temp is consistently the same throughout.

How long between having the grain milled and using it?

[croc4]

~10-15 mins, I mill the grain just before using it, as I have read/heard that storing the grain the the cracked state is not good for its longevity.
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[Fast_Eddy]

A good thing to do at this point is to find someone with AG experience that's near to you. Have them come and watch your process. It may be that your are doing something "odd".

I also suggest finding out the pH of your water in case it's way out of line(for whatever reason).

[croc4]

Good Suggestions, I am going to take a sample of my water to my LHBS next time I head there.

As for an AG'er that is in my area, I'm not sure I am aware of anyone, I'll have to post around
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[croc4]

I just got in my new thermometer, and did a test last night between the Therm I had used and the new one, as the temp rose, the older therms error increased (reading under) so what I thought was 152 was closer to 162, so that seems to explain the
less fermentable wort ;-/

Thanks every one for their input.
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[Fast_Eddy]

That would do it....glad you got to the bottom of this mystery.

[croc4]

Brewed another batch sunday with the new thermometer, and it is fermenting like crazy, first Ale to have left sediment in the airlock, so I think I have a pretty fermentable wort ;-)

Things didn't go exactly as planned, still working out the kinks.
I forgot to pre-heat the tun, so I lost a few more degrees that I expected, so it started to mash at ~149f, So a added additional hot water to bring up the temp to 152, it sat at 149 degrees for a good 15 mins, so this explains the crazy ferment. ;-)

I also tried a different recipie, I have been brewing brown ales, but for this one I made it as light as I could, looks interesting.
Here is the recipie

OG: 1.046

7 lbs of pale 2 row (American)
.25 lbs Biscuit Malt 25L
.31 lbs Aromatic Malt 20L
.44 lbs Honey Malt 50L


Centennial Hops 9.1% AA

1 Oz 60mins
1 Oz 15mins
.25 oz 5 mins

WPL001 cal Ale
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[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by croc4
[B]Brewed another batch sunday with the new thermometer, and it is fermenting like crazy, first Ale to have left sediment in the airlock, so I think I have a pretty fermentable wort ;-)

Things didn't go exactly as planned, still working out the kinks.
I forgot to pre-heat the tun, so I lost a few more degrees that I expected, so it started to mash at ~149f.../B]

Also a thinner mash lends itself to a more fermentable wort (ie favors beta).

[BrewDog]

An easy thermo. test is to put it in boiling water - it should read 212 F and then into water that is about 80% ice by volume(swirl it around for 5 minutes or so) - it should read very close to (if not exactly) 32 F.

Eddy-

I don't want to nit-pick, but the thermometer test you gave is great advice as long as you are trying to boil the water at "standard barometric pressure" (whatever that is). If you are at altitude or trying to boil water during a storm, the actual temperature needed will be less (maybe even MUCH less). The effect of pressure on the freezing point is pretty much negligible.

Believe it or not, there's a Web Site (http://www.primogrill.com/boiling.htm) that'll calculate what the boiling point of water is for your current barometric pressure, which you can look up on the weather channel web site using your zip code. God, I love the internet for finding stuff like this!

So, if you really want to test your thermometer's accuracy, hit that web site above for the correct boiling temperature first. It just might NOT be 212F.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by BrewDog
Eddy-

I don't want to nit-pick, but the thermometer test you gave is great advice as long as you are trying to boil the water at "standard barometric pressure" (whatever that is). If you are at altitude or trying to boil water during a storm, the actual temperature needed will be less (maybe even MUCH less). The effect of pressure on the freezing point is pretty much negligible.

Believe it or not, there's a Web Site (http://www.primogrill.com/boiling.htm) that'll calculate what the boiling point of water is for your current barometric pressure, which you can look up on the weather channel web site using your zip code. God, I love the internet for finding stuff like this!

So, if you really want to test your thermometer's accuracy, hit that web site above for the correct boiling temperature first. It just might NOT be 212F.

You are 100% correct.....