What is live beer?

[Jim P]

Hi,

What is live beer? Years ago in Germany I heard reports that their draught beer is not pasteurized and apparently has live yeast in it when served. I believe it has a short shelf life. Is that true and do you have any more information about it? Thanks.

Jim

[Stodbrew]

Live beer is just that, live. It hasn't bee filtered or pastuerized, and still has live yeast in it. Usually, when one is referring to live beer, they are talking about British cask conditioned ales, but I suppose the same could be said about German beers, too.

[fretlessman71]

I thought that live beer had a LONGER shelf life... I mean, who wants to drink dead beer? :p

[L.H.H.H.Brown]

A whole lotta people. Think ................... can't judge people by the #*@! they consume. I'ts all good. Just know dead beer is alive ( no pun intended ) and well. ;)

[Richard English]

All British cask-conditioned beers are live. They are fermenting when they arrive at the pub and continue to ferment while being served. Once they stop fermenting, if the cask hasn't been finished the carbon dioxide blanket over the beer will disappear and the beer will quickly turn to vinegar. Proper stock control and cellarmanship are essential if the beer is to remain drinkable and the pub to be profitable. Cask-conditioned beers are troublesome to deal with and that's why have disappeared in many countries of the world. However, they share, along with their troublesome nature, a taste which is incomparable and which no "dead" beer can approach.

Bottle-conditioned beers (Goose Island, Fullers 1845, Coniston Bluebird) also undergo a secondary fermentation in the bottle. Unlike cask beers, though, they do not deteriorate once the fermentation has finished since they are protected by the carbon dioxide in the bottle. Most will keep for at least a year.

Dead beers represent the majority of beers on sale. They will have been filtered, and often pasteurised, so that they will last for ages. They range from the quite good (Sam Smiths, Budweiser - the real one, known as Czechvar in the USA) to the truly foul (Carling, Miller, A-B Budweiser).

If you can't get proper cask-conditioned beer, stick to bottle-conditioned and you won't go far wrong.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
If you can't get proper cask-conditioned beer, stick to bottle-conditioned and you won't go far wrong.

> sigh < Here we go again.

While cask/bottle conditioned beers are quite good, there are many beers available that aren't, but are still quite good. Capital's beers from Madison, WI for one.

And there are many beers that undergo pasteurization that remain very good. Some of Young's offerings here in the 'States, as well as Pilsner Urquell and many of the German beers imported here.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Jim P
What is live beer? Years ago in Germany I heard reports that their draught beer is not pasteurized and apparently has live yeast in it when served. I believe it has a short shelf life. Is that true and do you have any more information about it? Thanks.

While German draft beer (lagers in particular) in Germany isn't pasteurized, they are fermented out and have been separated from their yeast before lagering (maturing). Just as in homebrewing, if yeast is left in beer without more sugars to feed on, it will turn on itself and begin to produce very rank, off flavors and aromas.

Bavarian Weizen beers will often have yeast residuals suspended within the beer due to a dosage of yeast to produce carbonation, giving it a cloudy appearance. There are also Krystal Weizens which have this dosage yeast filtered away prior to bottling or kegging.

S.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by steveh
> sigh < Here we go again.
....

S.

Steve - I've decided to just start leaving it alone.

[brewmonkey]

Yup.

[Richard English]

Quote "...While cask/bottle conditioned beers are quite good, there are many beers available that aren't, but are still quite good..."

Isn't that what I said? (in fact, it is what I said).

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
Isn't that what I said? (in fact, it is what I said).

Indeed, you did - and I apologize for missing that. I was distracted by your customary personal campaign for conditioned ales, and still support my stance that there are only 2 kinds of beer: good and bad, no matter how they're created.

Off my soap-box, back to the importance at-hand - beer.

S.

[Richard English]

When I come to Chicago in April I shall be in position maybe to compare Goose Island on draught to Goose Island in bottle. The latter is excellent; the former I've not yet found in the UK.

And, of course, any other good beers that I can sample during my short stay.

[paul84043]

I had never heard of a Krystal Weizen, but think I accidentally made one the last attempt at a Hefe...I'm not sure what happened, but there is not even enough sediment left in the bottles to make the beer cloudy when we serve it....it still tasted great, but I miss the cloudy yeasty appearance.

I have always been of the opinion that after bottling, there's still enough live yeast left for at least a couple of months to carbonate and mature the beer, maybe even longer....
I think that the vast majority of our beers are consumed live....

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by paul84043
I had never heard of a Krystal Weizen, but think I accidentally made one the last attempt at a Hefe...I'm not sure what happened, but there is not even enough sediment left in the bottles to make the beer cloudy when we serve it....it still tasted great, but I miss the cloudy yeasty appearance.

I have always been of the opinion that after bottling, there's still enough live yeast left for at least a couple of months to carbonate and mature the beer, maybe even longer....
I think that the vast majority of our beers are consumed live....

Krystal Weizen is pretty much a fined/filtered Hefe. I do not like Hefe's but I can drink a krystal.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
When I come to Chicago in April I shall be in position maybe to compare Goose Island on draught to Goose Island in bottle. The latter is excellent; the former I've not yet found in the UK.

You'll find it to be smoother in flavor and body, at least in my experience. It seems that the IPA has become a regular offering on tap (not always draught), but by April the Special Bitter on the beer engine now ought to be depleted, and who knows what will follow? The IPA was available in cask conditioned form at the pub last Summer.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
I do not like Hefe's but I can drink a krystal.

Really? The only difference I've found between the two has been in body/mouth feel. The flavors seem to hold up through the filtering/fining.

I have a friend who loves beer, yet abhors weizens, he's even turned away Aventinus. Maybe I should have him try a Krystal.

S.

[Stodbrew]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Krystal Weizen is pretty much a fined/filtered Hefe. I do not like Hefe's but I can drink a krystal.

A krisall weizen in my summer seasonal at the brewery. I do it because no one else around here does one, and its very popular. Its a very boring beer, but on a hot summer day when I'm brewing, they go down very easily.

[Tweek]

Richard, when you are in Chicago might I suggest that you break fro your normal beer drinking habits and try some of the non cask, non bottle conditioned beers that are talked about favorably on this board. It may give you some insight into why so many people react so strongly when you talk about cask a bc beers being the end all be all.

just a thought.

cheers!

[Beaver]

A question.

If a beer is hand-drawn, does that guarrantee that it is a live/real ale?

[Richard English]

Quote "...Richard, when you are in Chicago might I suggest that you break fro your normal beer drinking habits and try some of the non cask, non bottle conditioned beers that are talked about favorably on this board...."

I have. Many times. Remember, I have been drinking beer for nearly half a century. I have never yet found a brewery-concditioned beer that matches a cask or bottle conditioned one but that's not been for lack of trying. I will continue to try.

[Richard English]

Quote "...A question.

If a beer is hand-drawn, does that guarrantee that it is a live/real ale?..."

Sadly no. Fake handpumps exist. But usually it is.

[Beaver]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...A question.

If a beer is hand-drawn, does that guarrantee that it is a live/real ale?..."

Sadly no. Fake handpumps exist. But usually it is.

It seems like that would be a lot of work to go through for little gain in the US since the majority of the population has no clue what real ale is.

Is there any reason to hand-pump non-live ale other than to deceive customers?

[Richard English]

Quote "...Is there any reason to hand-pump non-live ale other than to deceive customers?..."

No. But remember, I speak from a UK viewpoint where many customers seek out real ale. At one time there was quite a vogue for serving chemical fizz through handpumps but there were mutterings that it was deception and threats to report it to the Trading Standards authorities. I suspect the threat was enough and I haven't seen a fake handpump for some years.

I was only caught out once and the first mouthfull of ice-cold fizz was enough that I wasn't caught again by that particular pub.

[Beaver]

Thanks for the info Richard!

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...Richard, when you are in Chicago might I suggest that you break fro your normal beer drinking habits and try some of the non cask, non bottle conditioned beers that are talked about favorably on this board...."

I have. Many times. Remember, I have been drinking beer for nearly half a century. I have never yet found a brewery-concditioned beer that matches a cask or bottle conditioned one but that's not been for lack of trying. I will continue to try.

Richard may have 20 years more experience than I do But I have to agree with him totally. I drink mostly non cask beers but I love the beers from the cask best and I routinely feel compelled to travel to Britian for a cask "fix".

I also agree with Steveh that there is good beer and bad and almost any type or style will have both.

And lastly, taste is subjective so it is really hard for me to tell someone else what he should or should not be drinking. My taste is definitely on the cask ale side and I wish we had more of them available to us on this side of the pond. I truly love beer fresh from the cask and yes I have had a few bad ones. I am willing to try almost any new beer that I come across and think very highly of certain other styles such as Lambics or Rauchs but there is nothing quite like that first cask ale when I arrive each time in the U.K.

To each his own.

[Theakston]

Here is a link to some good information on what we often get in the USA. Often it is not the CAMRA approved "real" ale, there are many variations on the theme:

click here (http://www.realbeer.com/library/beerbreak/archives/beerbreak20010823.php)

I found this quite informative. I suspect many pubs here who have a handpump are doing one of these variations rather than straight from a cask.

[Beaver]

Great article Theakston!

Part 1 (http://www.realbeer.com/library/beerbreak/archives/beerbreak20010816.php) was very informative as well.

[Richard English]

Very interesting and almost 100% accurate.

The only error? A firkin is not a generic term for a cask in which beer is allowed to undergo its secondary fermentation, any more than would be a barrel.

Both terms are the names for specific sizes of cask. Cask sizes are:

Pin - 4½ Gallons (the smallest usually used although you may sometimes find a mini-pin - just 2 gallons)
Firkin 9 Gallons = 2 Pins
Kilderkin 18 Gallons = 2 Firkins
Barrel 36 Gallons = 2 Kilderkins
Hogshead 54 Gallons = 1½ Barrels
Puncheon 72 Gallons = 2 Barrels
Butt 108 Gallons = 2 Hogsheads
Tun 216 Gallons = 2 Butts

Most pubs will use firkins or kilderkins since both are small enough to move around easily but contain a reasonable quantity.

The gallons are Imperial, not US, and thus the UK barrel of 36 Imperial gallons is considerably larger that is the US 32 gallon barrel.

[Beaver]

Originally posted by Richard English
Very interesting and almost 100% accurate.

The only error? A firkin is not a generic term for a cask in which beer is allowed to undergo its secondary fermentation, any more than would be a barrel.

Both terms are the names for specific sizes of cask. Cask sizes are:

Pin - 4½ Gallons (the smallest usually used although you may sometimes find a mini-pin - just 2 gallons)
Firkin 9 Gallons = 2 Pins
Kilderkin 18 Gallons = 2 Firkins
Barrel 36 Gallons = 2 Kilderkins
Hogshead 54 Gallons = 1½ Barrels
Puncheon 72 Gallons = 2 Barrels
Butt 108 Gallons = 2 Hogsheads
Tun 216 Gallons = 2 Butts

Most pubs will use firkins or kilderkins since both are small enough to move around easily but contain a reasonable quantity.

The gallons are Imperial, not US, and thus the UK barrel of 36 Imperial gallons is considerably larger that is the US 32 gallon barrel.

Can't they just use the metric system! ;)

[Richard English]

Quote "...Can't they just use the metric system! ..."

You mean like they do in the USA? :-)

Seriously, just about everything sold in the UK must now be sold in metric units (although the Imperial equivalant may be shown). The main exception is beer which must be sold in Imperial pints or fractions and multiples thereof.

There is an ongoing spat about this in Canada where they have suddenly woken up and discovered that they have lost their pints and are trying to get them back.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Theakston
I found this quite informative. I suspect many pubs here who have a handpump are doing one of these variations rather than straight from a cask.

Three Floyds follows the Oliver Brewing method mentioned in the article, getting it just so at the brewery, then kegging it. Floyds and Bells don't filter before kegging either, the near-by beer bar that carries cask ales gets the next beer in place on their tilting device and lets it settle before serving from the hand-pump.

Also, all of the casks that come over from England for the RAF in Chicago are served via gravity. The casks are usually air freighted a day or two before the fest - at least that's how it's happened in the past.

S.

[chazwicke]

The English brewer who is responsible for the casks that were brought over for the South Beach fest told me his casks were brought over into Boston and then shipped to Fla. He said he could arrange to have them brought basically to any area if I wanted to set up a fest in my area.

I posted this before but It is a good example of what they served:

Here is the list of Cask Ales that were available At the fest in South Beach:

BEER ABV BREWERY LOCATION
Bellringer 4.2 Abbey Bath, Somerset
XTC 3.9 Barum Barnstaple, Devon
Original 4.4 Barum Barnstaple, Devon
Breakfast 5 Barum Barnstaple, Devon
Firing Squad 5.3 Barum Barnstaple, Devon
Challanger 5.6 Barum Barnstaple, Devon
Barnstablasta 6.6 Barum Barnstaple, Devon
Piston Bitter 4.8 Beer Engine Exeter, Devon
Headstrong 5.2 Blackawton Saltash, Cornwall
Middle 5.1 Blue Anchor Helston, Cornwall
XSP 7.5 Blue Anchor Helston, Cornwall
Draymans 4.2 Branscombe Beer, Devon
Torridge Best 4.4 Clearwater Torrington, Devon
S & D Ale 4.4 Cottage Lovington, Somerset
Normans Conquest 5 Cottage Lovington, Somerset
Wallop 4.4 Country Life Biddeford, Devon
Country Bumpkin 6 Country Life Biddeford, Devon
Dozy Dog 4.4 Doghouse Scorrier, Cornwall
Bow Wow 5 Doghouse Scorrier, Cornwall
Speculation Ale 4.8 Freeminer Cinderford, Gloucs.
Mystery Tor 3.8 Glastonbury Somerton, Somerset
Lady of the Lake 4.2 Glastonbury Somerton, Somerset
Treasure 4.8 Hidden Wylye, Somerset
Naughty Ferret 3.5 Hobdens Warminster, Wiltshire
Rucking Mole 4.5 Moles Melksham, Wiltshire
Withy Cutter 3.8 Moor Beer Co. Ashcott, Somerset
Peat Porter 4.5 Moor Beer Co. Ashcott, Somerset
Port Stout 4.8 O'Hanlons Whimple, Devon
JD 1742 4.2 Quay Weymouth, Dorset
Steam 4.5 Quay Weymouth, Dorset
Old Slug porter 4.5 RCH Weston, Somerset
East Street Cream 5 RCH Weston, Somerset
Cornish Knocker 4.5 Skinners Truro, Cornwall
Great Bustard 4.8 Stonehenge Salisbury, Wiltshire
Winter Warmer 4.6 Summerskills Plymouth, Devon
Bumble 4.5 Sutton Plymouth, Devon
Reel Ale 4 Teignworthy Newton Abbot, Devon

I sampled all but 4. I had several tastings of some of them. Some I had had before but most were new to me. There was also a couple of BCA beers available most notably the Titanic from Freeminer. A wonderful and authentic IPA that I will post Tasting notes for later. They had many other beers from Microbreweries and Imports but I chose to stay with the English cask ales exclusively. While I was a bit disappointed that there were only 37 cask ales as opposed to 64 last year. I revelled in those that were there. The Mystery Tor probably being my favorite