Was Bud/Miller/Coors ever good?

[MeridianFC]

Obviously the question is slightly tongue in cheek, but I got to thinking about this the other day. I had just finished reading a book on the history of brewing in the US which contained quite a bit about the tremendous influence German immigration on had on US brewing, indeed it seems as if in the mid 1800s there was a full scale swing from British style brewing to German influenced lager brewing. Amongst some other technological/historical things I was ruminating on, I wondered how we had gotten from a first wave of German immigrant brewers who would have been brought up with the Rheiheitgebot and the specifics of continental brewing technology to the style of product we have today which bares only the most passing of resemblances to its cousins over the water.

Obviously supply, mechanical, and environmental factors caused many of these folks (Busch, Pabst, etc) to have to abapt to their new home. It's certain the variety/availability of barley, brewing equipement, native tempratures, etc would have in some cases forced their hands, but it seems that they would have been aiming at a beer that was similiar to what they were familiar with from "back home".

Of course saying that maybe as soon as they hit the streets in Colorado, or St. Louis, or what have you, they said fuck off to the Rheinheitsgebot and were chucking rice syrup solids into the brew kettle.

Unless someone has access to firsthand knowledge, older brewing recipes, or any 100 year old tasting notes, I'm afraid there's going to be a lot of conjecture about what beer tasted like and how it was made both here and abroad over 100 years ago, but I do wonder if many of the current group of historically German megabrewers (A-B, Miller, Coors, etc.) had started with a product significantly different from what we find today and how different was that from what was being brewed in Europe, specifically Germany.

It would be swell if we could avoid a three page thread about how megabrewers suck, not that I would disagree or that I'm accusing this august body of taking discussions miles of course. :)

[Stodbrew]

I would imagine the the Depression had a lot to do with the cheapening of beer. Even though it was, for the most part, during prohibition (coincidence?.... I don't think so) they were still brewing beer, and rightfully so. Perhaps buying rice and/or corn, while not only cheaper, was a way to not be noticed by Mr. Ness and his team?

[Wilson]

I'm willing to bet that it was simple business econ. that lead to their standards of today. As the demand for their product increased, the savvy managers decided that they could substitute a cheaper ingredient to meet that demand and save money at the same time. Assuming that their was a more expensive way to make bud/miller/coors. I would also assume that this change took place over a few years. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it...for now.

edit: <just saw Stodbrew's post...he beat me to it! Cheaper! :) >

[wortchillergoal]

I have read that the world Wars were a reason beer down graded if you will. The reading material gave two thoughts an what happened to beer during war time.

First. most drinking age men were gone to the battlefields. This cut down an the brewers' markets. They decdied to entice women to drink beer by making a lighter body beer with less flavor.

Second, they knew all the young men in the service would start drinking. So beer was made with less alcohol and lighter body, It was thought this might help to keep the forces from drinking as much.

I cn't remember where I read this but i do recall seeing the first reason in print more than once.

[bigmf]

There was a trade publication written in the 1940s about how the industry should brew. I cannot remember the title. The main points of the book were how to brew a uniform drink at the highest profits. The authors of the book I was reading about the subject said that it was a major blow to good beer in the US.

M.

[Tweek]

Originally posted by Stodbrew
I would imagine the the Depression had a lot to do with the cheapening of beer. Even though it was, for the most part, during prohibition (coincidence?.... I don't think so) they were still brewing beer, and rightfully so. Perhaps buying rice and/or corn, while not only cheaper, was a way to not be noticed by Mr. Ness and his team?

Interesting point about staying out of the laws radar. That never even crossed my mind. I wonder how much that played into it. interesting.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stodbrew
I would imagine the the Depression had a lot to do with the cheapening of beer. Even though it was, for the most part, during prohibition (coincidence?.... I don't think so) they were still brewing beer, and rightfully so. Perhaps buying rice and/or corn, while not only cheaper, was a way to not be noticed by Mr. Ness and his team?

I concur.

AFA the original question, I've always wanted to be able to taste an AB Budwesier from the 1800s, or the original recipe that won the "blue ribbon" for Pabst at the Columbian Exposition. I'd bet they were pretty flavorful brews. I also wonder if, secretly, the Busch clan doesn't have its own special stash of "private reserve," based on old and more traditional recipes, brewed up just for themselves - ignorant customers be damned.

Meridian, we've discussed the Yenne book, Beers of North America, before, and I don't know if this is a book you own, but if you flip through the old pictures in that volume it's interesting to note how many beers are very dark. An early 1900s portrait of the employees at the Henry Weinhard brewery with glasses of dark, frothy lager (the HW logo advertises it as a lager brewery) makes me want to crank up the time machine for a weekend trip.

S.

[toneyc]

This fellow thinks that the same thing is happening in Germany:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~patto1ro/gerbeer.htm

I saw a show on the History Channel a while back that talked about the history of beer in America. Wish I could remember more of it.

:)
Toney.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by steveh


Meridian, we've discussed the Yenne book, Beers of North America, before, and I don't know if this is a book you own, but if you flip through the old pictures in that volume it's interesting to note how many beers are very dark. An early 1900s portrait of the employees at the Henry Weinhard brewery with glasses of dark, frothy lager (the HW logo advertises it as a lager brewery) makes me want to crank up the time machine for a weekend trip.

S.

I just finished "American Brewery" by him. It's full of great photos and some good info, unfortunately it seems he did not have a proofreader go over it as it's also full of factual, grammatical, and typographical errors. There's one highlight box where he descibes lagers as top fermenting and ales as bottom.
There are several pictures in the book of folks drinking darker colored beers. But I digress.

Like you I wonder if back in preprohibition days if Pabst Blue Ribbon might not have been a tasty full(er) bodied beer. If I thought they'd answer I'd consider sending a letter A-B asking how much their recipe has changed over time "owing to customer demands". Given all the consolidation and business manuevering in the past decade I bet it's near impossible to find the taste/recipe of many brews (Schaeffer, Rheingold, etc.)

[brewmonkey]

Rationing was another reason for use of adjuncts. Corn and Rice were not as heavily rationed as barley and wheat and could be found quite readily around both the AB and Coors plants.

[steveh]

Originally posted by toneyc
This fellow thinks that the same thing is happening in Germany:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~patto1ro/gerbeer.htm

That's a very interesting site and opinion. While I'd agree with his views in many ways, I'd also tend to disagree. To paint all of German brewing with the same brush is a mistake, even though the author doesn't do this completely (see his link to the Beer Drinker's Guide to Munich), the overall sound of the article is that German beer is of poor quality.

The tree he doesn't see because of the forrest is that, aside from some poorer examples, Germany is just about the only country carrying on the tradition of (good) lager. Some minor forays here in the U.S. and Canada not withstanding, and not to discount the Pilsners of Bohemia and lagers of Switzerland and Austria (speaking of which, what innovative brews has he found in Austria?)

I may pine with him over the loss of some of those styles that have become extinct, but Germany isn't the only region to suffer this effect of evolution. Has anyone tried to brew a beer without hops since their preservative and flavor qualities were discovered - centuries ago? With modern chemistry and technology, you'd think that those old recipes might be interesting and kept fresh easier without hops - why not try them again?

And while I agree that the Germans are somewhat staid in their approach to beer, they don't care because they enjoy what they have. And what they have is, to the most part, done well. And while the author's German friends and relatives seem stuck (in a very Ami to Budweiser way) on some lame beers, my German friends run the gammut of Weizens, Pilsners, Dunkels, and many local brews (that is not to say Brewpubs, but regional breweries) that most of us will never set eyes on. Many of these beers, while being in an Export, Helles, Pilsner, Dunkel, Marzen, Bock, Alt, Kolsch, or Weizen style are very distinct in their flavor differences and of quality unsurpassed by any macro brew here in the U.S.

S.

[unkle bik]

Some very interesting responses. It could be a combination of several.
First, maybe brewers strayed from their original recipes to respond to current drinking trends. Many beers were lightened during the Second World War. Someone posted that certain ingredients may have rationed. We need to know for certain which ones before we make that determinaion.
This period brought about a new market: the beer drinking woman. Since most of the beer drinking men were off to war, Rosie the Riveter wanted a lighter bodied brew. I doubt at this time that the term "light beer" would have been acceptable to the rest of the beer drinking public. The macro brewer may have secretly lightened his product without relabeling it.
Just my .02.

BTW, I my get bashed for this, but I think regular Coors is a decent product. Sorry I can't say the same for Coors Light.

[chazwicke]

Extmely interesting topic. I too have wondered about old time beers. I know there have been efforts to remake long dead beers utilizing the original recipe and some even using the original yeast strain taken from old preserved bottles. I would venture to say that the original brewers in this country probably were subject to much more variation in the type and quality of ingredients that were available. And also subject to temperature and climate changes as well. Consistency would have been non existant. There were probably as many bad beers as there were good. And of course untrained palates as well. The rise of the big guys helped with the consistency issues but maybe their beer was not that great to begin with. We all know the history since the turn of the century and the rise of the "non-offensive" tasting beers of today. If you remove the flavor then the beers will offend no one.

[Beaver]

Here's an interesting article on A-B being too worried about copy-catting other successes:
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/entertainment/columnists/joe_sixpack/7996691.htm

An interesting quote:
The brews, dreamed up by numbers-crunchers, are tasted and retasted by countless focus groups till the brewers are left with a recipe that produces the blandest, lowest-common-denominator version of an otherwise decent beer.

[Wilson]

Intresting article, I had thought the same thing about the "World Select." I wonder if you could find some ex-AB brewers who could enlighten us. Could they be fed up with the restraints placed on their creativity? or is the pay just too good to pass up?

[Richard English]

Quote "...Germany is just about the only country carrying on the tradition of (good) lager...."

You'd better get your tin hat on! That small, but proud country, Belgium, has several hundred different fine beers, including lagers. In fact, I find I prefer many of them to many German beers. The afternoon I spent in the Brewery tap in Brugges will linger long in my memory!

[steveh]

I also left out Holland, Denmark, and Norway - but I did leave myself a loophole in saying "just about."

While Stella Artois is considered a Belgian Pilsener, I'd still pick a Konig Pils or any of the Munich brands' pils over it.

S.

Wait, did you just say you were drinking LAGERS Richard?! gasp ! ;)

[Richard English]

Quote "...While Stella Artois is considered a Belgian Pilsener..."

So would I. Stella Artois is rather a poor beer to my mind. In England it's brewed here under licence by Whitbread and is even poorer than the genuine Belgian exmple.

I would need to check but I suspect that Belgium has more different brews than Holland, Denmark, and Norway put together. Certainly it has more decent ones. I have never drunk a beer from Norway or Denmark that is much good.

[Richard English]

I have done some research and find that Denmark, The Netherlands and Norway have a total of 74 breweries between them. Belgium has 112. Germany has 1279 and the UK 461.

So far as consumption per person is concerned, the Czech Republic heads the list (although it has relatively few breweries) at 159 litres per person, per annum. Germany comes next at 125.5, then Ireland at 125, Austria at 108, Denmark at 102, Belgium at 99 and the UK at 95. The UK's relatively low figure may be explained because we are a major wine-consuming country as well. The USA ties with the Netherlands at 82.

So far as draught beer is concerned, the UK and Ireland are far and away the highest consumers in Europe with 62.4% and 78% respectively of all beer sold in this way (though not all of that will be cask-conditioned, especially in Ireland). Germany is well down the list at just 19%, well behind the Czech Republic and Belgium at around 40% each.

These figures are from 1999/2000 and things may well have changed since then and obviously I can't guarantee the accuracy of the orginal research.

For those who are interested this is one of the best sites I checked. http://www.xs4all.nl/~patto1ro/eustats.htm#draught

[Mr. Malt]

I saw a TV special about beer which said that following Prohibition brewers deliberately brewed lighter beers in order to appeal to women. I guess after 13 years America forgot what real beer tasted like!

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
I have done some research and find that Denmark, The Netherlands and Norway have a total of 74 breweries between them. Belgium has 112. Germany has 1279 and the UK 461.[/url]

Of Belgium's 112 (really, only 112?) breweries, how many of them brew Lagers? Based only on cultural preference, I'd guess that the majority of Germany's 1279 breweries make, at the least, one lager - and we were discussing lager tradition.

And I didn't mean to paint all Belgian Pilseners with the Stella brush, but it's the most common to be seen, or tasted, in the U.S., and I don't care much for its tart/sweet flavor over crisp German or Czech Pilsners.

AFA Scandinavian lagers flow, I was delightfully surprised by the rich malty Carlsberg (yes, that's what I said) 47, their anniversary beer. And I've found the Aass (pronounced Oors, of course) lagers from Norway to be very good.

S.

[Saint Patrick]

I love Miller Lite :D

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by steveh
Of Belgium's 112 (really, only 112?) breweries, how many of them brew Lagers? Based only on cultural preference, I'd guess that the majority of Germany's 1279 breweries make, at the least, one lager - and we were discussing lager tradition.

And I didn't mean to paint all Belgian Pilseners with the Stella brush, but it's the most common to be seen, or tasted, in the U.S., and I don't care much for its tart/sweet flavor over crisp German or Czech Pilsners.
...

S.

112 seems kind of low.....

BTW, I was delighted to see you know when to use "pilsner" and when to use "pilsener". I'm a stickler for that kind of thing. Rock on!!

[laneto]

There is a book by Dan Baum called "Citizen Coors" It goes into detail about how Coors got started, the other products they developed during prohibition and how AB and Miller took them to task on advertising. It's a good read and lets you in on how screwed up the Coors family is.

[Herb Ninja]

And I've found the Aass (pronounced Oors, of course) lagers from Norway to be very good.

I tried them. They were nothing to get excited about but they were the best Norwegian beers I could find (in norway). There are some carlsberg beers I havent tried, like an imperial stout and such, so I can't really judge Denmark. The Netherlands has some good beers if you can find them, and plus they are a neighbor of Belgium and often carry Belgian beers. Belgium is awesome, just awesome. Kulminator in Antwerp, and the Hop Duvel(I think thats the name of that beer store) in Ghent. Its a dream. When in Belgium drinking stella artois is like drinking coors light in the northwest. Ive had lots of Scandinavian, Dutch, Belgian, and English beer now I want to try more German and Czech beers. Mmmmm beer.... Peace, HN-

[Richard English]

Quote "...Of Belgium's 112 (really, only 112?)..."

That was the data I found. Remember, Belgium is a very small country with a population of around 10 million. Germany has a population of 82 million and the UK just under 60 million. The USA is around 279 million.

For its size Belgium punches very heavily in the fine beer fight.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Fast_Eddy
BTW, I was delighted to see you know when to use "pilsner" and when to use "pilsener". I'm a stickler for that kind of thing. Rock on!!

Har - you can thank Mr. Jackson for that! ;)

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
For its size Belgium punches very heavily in the fine beer fight.

That, and the number of different styles from the country, was why I was surprised at only 112.

S.

[Otis_The_Drunk]

It seems to me, when I had my first beer (which was a bud) that there was more of a hop profile.... That was back in the mid 1970s. Yeah I was underaged, and there was a liquor store that sold to underaged people in the LA area.

[MeridianFC]

Holy revived thread Batman. I'd forgotten all about this one.

FWIW on the Nat'l. Geographic Factory show, discussed elsewhere, at one point they claimed that A-B has been using the same recipe for over 100 years. Who knows.

There's an article elsewhere (Lew Bryson maybe) who surmises that brew in the old days probably wouldn't taste as good to our modern tongues. I'll see can I find that.

[DeliriumTremens]

If one were to crank back the time machine to visit the megoliths of brewing from the old days, I would much rather go further back to the days of families brewing their own beer as a commonplace event. Travelling from village to village sampling brews of different styles from hundreds of different families. Talk about an interesting spread of brews.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
Holy revived thread Batman. I'd forgotten all about this one.

FWIW on the Nat'l. Geographic Factory show, discussed elsewhere, at one point they claimed that A-B has been using the same recipe for over 100 years. Who knows.

There's an article elsewhere (Lew Bryson maybe) who surmises that brew in the old days probably wouldn't taste as good to our modern tongues. I'll see can I find that.
They might be using the same INGREDIENTS (though I doubt it) but they certainly aren't using the same RECIPE. One hundred years ago beer wasn't artificially pressurised with carbon dioxide - to name just one difference.

[M.K. Jeeves]

Other than the recipe changes, I think storage and aging would be two big factors in the taste difference.
Not too many people use Oak or Beechwood barrels any more, or store beer in caves for that matter.

[corkybstewart]

Originally posted by M.K. Jeeves

Not too many people use Oak or Beechwood barrels any more, or store beer in caves for that matter.

Are you calling me a caveman? I've got a load of Belgian beers stored in a cave in France, unless my BIL has gotten into it.

[fretlessman71]

Yeah, Corky - and I bet you use GEICO for your auto insurance, too! :D

[chazwicke]

I love those commercials!

[corkybstewart]

Speaking of cavemen, it looks like wortchiller's area may be heading back to the Ice Age. Hope he has enough beer to make til spring.

[M.K. Jeeves]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
Are you calling me a caveman? I've got a load of Belgian beers stored in a cave in France, unless my BIL has gotten into it.


No offense Corky, I was trying to imply that caves, before the invention of refrigeration were used as storage places because of the constant cool temperature.

If your brother in law is anything like mine, your beer is gone, and all that remain are empty bottles and popped corks.

We are all cavemen to a certain degree. :D

[chazwicke]

Although I don't think it is any longer a part of the tour, Yuengling's old brewery has caves where the beer was once lagered. I have seen them.

[corkybstewart]

Originally posted by M.K. Jeeves
No offense Corky, I was trying to imply that caves, before the invention of refrigeration were used as storage places because of the constant cool temperature.

If your brother in law is anything like mine, your beer is gone, and all that remain are empty bottles and popped corks.

We are all cavemen to a certain degree. :D

I never take offense at anything, life's too short. Ad if you ever saw my old avatar the caveman aspect was pretty evident.
My BIL may try a bottle every once in a while, but if he does he'll replace it with twice as much. My wife has 10 siblings, and they share about 4 wine caves and store thousands of bottles-my 50 bottles of beer are safe. In fact we don't get over there often enough to keep up with all the beer and wine they stash in the cave for us for birthdays, Christmas etc.

[Randybo]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
In fact we don't get over there often enough to keep up with all the beer and wine they stash in the cave for us for birthdays, Christmas etc.

Man you are one very luck guy,

[Jinja]

I read on Wikipedia that during Prohibition, bootlegged beer was watered down so you could sell more without making more. Maybe Americans became used to the more watery flavor?

Jinja Out

[Thirsty in NY]

Damn. I would like to have a cave in France full of good beer.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Jinja
Maybe Americans became used to the more watery flavor?

Thin, light-bodied/flavored beer is mostly blamed on women (:eek:) of the 40s. No, really - while the majority of men were fighting WW2, and the women at home taking on jobs they thought they'd never, the breweries discovered they could sell more beer to women if it was lighter bodied and less, well, beery in flavor.

When the G.I.s came home from overseas the majority didn't care - they just wanted a beer because they hadn't had one in so long, so the breweries didn't have a dip in sales at all, and kept on with the less-than-inspiring beverage they were making.

S.

[Jinja]

I saw nothing on Wikipedia endorsing this theory. If it is not on Wikipedia, it can't be true ;)

Someone posted earlier in the thread that they would like to see recipes from 100 years ago. This article discusses lager formulations from pre-Prohibition:

http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.3/fix.html

Jinja Out

[Jinja]

I also found another article with a recipe for a classic American pilsner, which the author claims is the taste beer had in the 50s:

http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue3.5/renner.html

Pretty interesting stuff... which is preventing me from actually working instead of reading about beer...


Jinja Out

[corkybstewart]

Originally posted by Randybo
Man you are one very luck guy,

I got lucky and married the right woman. Of course we would have divorced years ago, but we're still fighting over custody of the cave.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by steveh
Thin, light-bodied/flavored beer is mostly blamed on women (:eek:) of the 40s. No, really - while the majority of men were fighting WW2, and the women at home taking on jobs they thought they'd never, the breweries discovered they could sell more beer to women if it was lighter bodied and less, well, beery in flavor.

When the G.I.s came home from overseas the majority didn't care - they just wanted a beer because they hadn't had one in so long, so the breweries didn't have a dip in sales at all, and kept on with the less-than-inspiring beverage they were making.

S.

Plus, lighter beers take better to the cheaper adjuncts (rice, corn) that the macro brewers like to use for cost cutting.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by bigmf
There was a trade publication written in the 1940s about how the industry should brew. I cannot remember the title. The main points of the book were how to brew a uniform drink at the highest profits. The authors of the book I was reading about the subject said that it was a major blow to good beer in the US.

M.

That is sad :mad:

Jim Koch, founder of Boston Beer Co., claims that the recipe for Samuel Adams Boston Lager is his great grandfather's recipe (I believe his family owned a brewery). Usually, I would be suspicious of a claim like this, but I believe it.

From what I have read, beer one hundred years ago probably tasted pretty good. It's the last 50 in the U.S. that's been the problem!

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by ratman03


From what I have read, beer one hundred years ago probably tasted pretty good. It's the last 50 in the U.S. that's been the problem!

The funny thing is I've read some counter claims, mostly that beer of yore would've probably tasted not so good to us now. I guess there's no way to know.

[Richard English]

Several points:

The American GIs weren't the only troops fighting in WW2; we in Britain contributed in our own modest way. And of course, those GIs who were stationed in the UK would have been able to drink fine ales; there was never any rationing of beer (although there was of most other drinks). I suspect that the decline of the US brewing industry started with prohibition.

Beer didn't start to change in the UK until the 1960s when the keg beer and lager floods threatened to drown our traditional brewing industry.

There are several beers brewed nowadays from old recipes - Fuller's 1845 claiming to be just one. But beer 150 years ago would differ significantly in one important way from modern beers; its quality would be very variable. Modern techniques of sterilisation and cooling were unknown and, indeed, some styles of beer were brewed simply to get around these problems. It would not have been possible to brew modern Dudweiser in those days' the techniques simply did not exist.

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...Of Belgium's 112 (really, only 112?)..."

That was the data I found. Remember, Belgium is a very small country with a population of around 10 million. Germany has a population of 82 million and the UK just under 60 million. The USA is around 279 million.

For its size Belgium punches very heavily in the fine beer fight.

I have to turn Bavarian Nationalist for a moment :D
Bavaria has about 12 million inhabitants and of those 1200 german brews 800 are in Bavaria.

Read on.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by ratman03


Jim Koch, founder of Boston Beer Co., claims that the recipe for Samuel Adams Boston Lager is his great grandfather's recipe (I believe his family owned a brewery). Usually, I would be suspicious of a claim like this, but I believe it.

!

Well, for every article about Koch's beer recipe from his great grandfather's brewery, there's one about Owades' work on that same recipe. (Owades, of course, the brewing chemist who created "Lite" beer, but also worked with a lot of craft brewers (Anchor, Pete's) in his later years.)

IIRC, Owades was said to have decided what modern malts and hops would be the equivalent to those in the old family formula and also "added" krausening and dry hopping to the brewing method. So, I gotta say the beer can't possible be "the same".

I usually assume that when a brewery says their beer is from an old recipe, the old recipe reads something like-

"In a large brewing vessel add a quantity of barley malt to water, cook, add two handful of hops, cool, add yeast, allow to ferment."

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
The American GIs weren't the only troops fighting in WW2; we in Britain contributed in our own modest way. And of course, those GIs who were stationed in the UK would have been able to drink fine ales; there was never any rationing of beer (although there was of most other drinks). I suspect that the decline of the US brewing industry started with prohibition.


Okay Monty, we weren't talking about the war, we were talking about getting back home after the war to "normalcy" for Americans. And how many Yanks do you suppose actually liked English Ales? Not all that many: too warm, no carbonation, gawd why is that so dark -- it can't be beer!

Not to mention there were plenty of GIs well out of reach of any good beer. Marine Fred Eckhardt has written stories of drinking swill supplied to him on a ship off Japan at the war's end. Bill Mauldin could only wax poetic about the Vino the GIs could scrounge in Italy. And so many poor soldiers on Pacific islands had nothing but shoe polish to ferment in the sun for a quick buzz!

99% of the American GIs wanted to get back home to what was familiar to them, what was the norm before the war. Unfortunately, their beer had slipped in further into bland since prohibition, but they really didn't care at that point. That's the sad part. It's taken this long to rebuild our tastes for good beer since prohibition and WW2. And this long for at least one Macro to give in to the same realization - all malt Michelob anyone?

Ratman - the other side of using corn and rice is that barley was rationed for bread during the war, breweries made due with what they had -- and discovered they could get away with it.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stahlsturm
of those 1200 german brews 800 are in Bavaria.

Prosit!

S.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by steveh
Okay Monty, we weren't talking about the war, we were talking about getting back home after the war to "normalcy" for Americans. And how many Yanks do you suppose actually liked English Ales? Not all that many: too warm, no carbonation, gawd why is that so dark -- it can't be beer!



My memories of the war are vague but I seem to remember that the two GIs who were billeted with my parents in Maidstone had no problem with the Fremlins that they shared down the boozer with my father.



99% of the American GIs wanted to get back home to what was familiar to them, what was the norm before the war.



If this is true (and I am not denying it) then your previous assertion that "...the breweries discovered they could sell more beer to women if it was lighter bodied and less, well, beery in flavor..." can't be, since the beer that the GIs were coming back to was not the same beer that they had left.

[Jake]

Originally posted by Stodbrew
I would imagine the the Depression had a lot to do with the cheapening of beer. Even though it was, for the most part, during prohibition (coincidence?.... I don't think so) they were still brewing beer, and rightfully so. Perhaps buying rice and/or corn, while not only cheaper, was a way to not be noticed by Mr. Ness and his team?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would also say WWII added to the demise of the brewing industry do to everything was ration.

Like the coffee industry brewing fell into the hands of a few breweries who were able to survive. Americans became accustomed to the taste of inferior coffee as well as inferior beer.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
...I seem to remember that the two GIs who were billeted with my parents in Maidstone had no problem with the Fremlins that they shared down the boozer with my father.

2 things here: 1.) All they could get. 2.) Yanks really can be polite too.

If this is true (and I am not denying it) then your previous assertion that ...can't be, since the beer that the GIs were coming back to was not the same beer that they had left.

Your selective editing is always entertaining, paragraph two of the same post:

"When the G.I.s came home from overseas the majority didn't care - they just wanted a beer because they hadn't had one in so long, so the breweries didn't have a dip in sales at all, and kept on with the less-than-inspiring beverage they were making."

All has to do with the relief of being home and away from bullets flying.

S.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by steveh
2 things here: 1.) All they could get. 2.) Yanks really can be polite too.

[b]

Your selective editing is always entertaining, paragraph two of the same post:

"When the G.I.s came home from overseas the majority didn't care - they just wanted a beer because they hadn't had one in so long, so the breweries didn't have a dip in sales at all, and kept on with the less-than-inspiring beverage they were making."

All has to do with the relief of being home and away from bullets flying.

S.

I suppose it is possible that the Americans of fifty years ago were all, to a man, less discerning than those of today. But I doubt it. Judging by the evidence of this and other boards, plus my own observations, most Americans, when trying proper beer for the first time (yes, that flat, dark stuff you mentioned earlier) seem to think it's wonderful.

To summarise, I don't think this theory holds water. American beer was rubbish well before WW2. And don't forget, we had troops overseas and women working in our factories too. The main difference is that ours were involved for around twice as long as yours were - and I can't see that the additional duration could have reduced the effect of feminine pressure, or the troops desire to get back to drinking beer; if anything it would have increased it.

Sorry, an interesting hypothesis, but an unproven hypothesis I suggest.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
I suppose it is possible that the Americans of fifty years ago were all, to a man, less discerning than those of today.

Read more of Stephen E. Ambrose's works, beer wasn't as important as getting back home and away from the war.

I agree that beer was certainly on its way down in the US due to prohibition, through the great depression, and into WW2. But WW2 capped it, and the women in the US weren't really beer drinkers (still weren't, considering what was being produced for them), so the breweries slacked off -- and the US did have heavy rationing on barley during the war - England made special provisions for barleyt allottments to breweries, IIRC.

And I'm not the only one with this hypothesis on the war's effect on US beer, it's been around for a while.

Opinion on the outcome and involvement of the war is another subject completely, but we are certainly talking about 2 different cultures and their outlooks on such things as beer and liquor -- another factor altogether in the hypothesis.

S.

[MeridianFC]

I thought both US and Britain (I'd guess the rest of Europe too) suffered material privation related to brewing during both World Wars. I seem to recall reading, but am uncertain of the sources at this moment, that requirements for lesser amounts of malt were the order of the day both here and into the UK.

As far as whether US beer was rubbish prior to WWII, well that's the question within the scope of the initial question I posed in this thread (though it was specific to the current mega brewers). Does anyone know for sure? There's plenty of speculation that American beer was "ruined" by prohibition, but is that true and if so was it really "good" prior? Most of this is going to be straight conjecture as I don't think there are too many folks about who have the insight based on: 1. being alive at the time, 2. drinking beer then and now, and 3. having comments available in any public fora/journals/etc.

I do run across the occasional comment from someone who remember American beer from the 50s or 60s but not much if anything regarding time previous.

[chazwicke]

Another attempt to bring back an old recipe was Flag Porter. They utilized yeast taken from beer bottles that were preserved in a shipwreck in the English Channel I think.

WW2 IS thought to have had a big impact on the lightening and cheapening of American Beer. Besides the rationing, women were thrust into the work force and took jobs that had traditionally been done by males. The whole dynamic changed from the woman staying home, minding the children and keeping house. These women also began to drink more than had been done previously and they were weened on the lighter adjunct laden brews. So they really did not know any better.

[Jake]

A program on the Discovery Channel they did several episodes on the different alcohol beverages (did anyone else see this?). The episode about brewing beer, WWII was mention as being the chief attributer of the cheapening of beer ( i.e corn, rice etc).

[Jake]

I do know of one beer that has changed because of going out-of-business. Stoh's beer was an all-malt beer and uniquely fire-brewed (arguable whether that enhanced taste).

I remember back as a teenager (not the refiined beer drinker I am today), that Stroh's seem to have a stronger more beery taste than my dad's Budweiser and friends Miller High Life. Back then we drank mainly to get a buzz. Stoh's would fill me up after about three unlike the others.

Last year I gave Stroh's a nostalgic try and was greatly disappointed. It was basically like all other macros, watery and tasteless.

That prompt me to write the Pabst Brewing Company and ask them if they had changed anything since taking over the brewing of this beer.

I shared Pabst reply letter verbatim with Realbeer a year ago. Though I don't have that letter in front of me now I do remember it. Two things stands out from that letter. First thing was they discontinued the fire-brewing do to the cost and their own taste experts could not detect any noticeable difference. Secondly they added corn to the mix to "smooth out the taste".

[fretlessman71]

So can we surmise that what the Big Three refer to as "smooth", we refer to as "flavorless"? ;)

[steveh]

Originally posted by Jake
Stroh's beer was an all-malt beer and uniquely fire-brewed (arguable whether that enhanced taste).

You know that the "fire brewing" was a mistake at first, the result of a faulty brew kettle that heated up too high in one spot and created some caramalization of the wort. In steps the marketing department to save the day.

IIRC, the actual flavor of the fire brewing only lasted a few years - then some idiot fixed the brew kettle! They could never recreate the flavor, but kept the tag line.

Fret - don't discount "drinkability" as all the flavor of tap water.

S.

[chazwicke]

I think I can attest to the fact that Stroh's used to taste different from many of the other macros that we had to drink back in the 70s. It was slightly sweeter IIRC. Also Schaeffer was too. I did not routinely drink either but I recall there was a slight difference. In those days we drank Schlitz ML mostly. Remember Schlitz was a top tier brewer. Number 2 I think. Until they had "efficiency experts" toy with their formula and they soon fell from the lofty heights. I remember the change and loyal drinkers left in droves. I hate the beer that we drank back then. Hate them all. No nostalgia for me. I think that is why some craft brews that employ corn or flaked maise repell me too. DFH Liquor de Malt and New Glarus Spotted Cow both have had this effect on me. I'm willing to give SC another go but I hate that corn smell and the flavor. Interestingly I've been told some English brewers use corn but I've never had a real ale that had that smell or old taste.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by Jake
I do know of one beer that has changed because of going out-of-business. Stoh's beer was an all-malt beer and uniquely fire-brewed (arguable whether that enhanced taste). >snip<
First thing was they discontinued the fire-brewing do to the cost and their own taste experts could not detect any noticeable difference. Secondly they added corn to the mix to "smooth out the taste".

When were you drinking Stroh's when it was "all malt"? A 1970 booklet, "Stroh's- The Fire Brewing Story" clearly states (complete with photos of corn grits) that they used "processed corn" in their recipe.

Stroh DID make one of the early attempts to re-introduce an "All Malt" beer to the US megabrewery market, when they continued to make and market Schlitz's super-premium, Erlanger, for a few years after purchase.

What is amazing is that you got someone from the "virtual" brewery, Pabst, to answer a letter. Obviously, they stopped "fire-brewing" because they didn't buy all the Stroh breweries (only the Allentown facility, which they soon sold off to Diageo), only their labels, and the Miller breweries that do their contract brewing aren't designed for "fire brewing".


Originally posted by steveh
You know that the "fire brewing" was a mistake at first, the result of a faulty brew kettle that heated up too high in one spot and created some caramalization of the wort. In steps the marketing department to save the day.

IIRC, the actual flavor of the fire brewing only lasted a few years - then some idiot fixed the brew kettle! They could never recreate the flavor, but kept the tag line.

S.

Never heard that story re: Fire-brewed Stroh's. Their "official" history (myth?) is that when the son of the founder toured German breweries in 1912 to help design a new brewhouse in Detroit, he decided he liked the beers that were "fire-brewed"- the copper heated with direct flame rather than steam coils- and had the new brewery built with "six small, old fashioned direct fired kettles".

Most of their pre-Pro material doesn't mention "Fire Brewing", but then they'd only been doing it for 8 years before that came down. It'd be interesting to investigate when they started using the phrase.

In the 70's, the company was boasting that they used 9000 gallons of oil a day to heat their 19 kettles.

When they bought the Schaefer brewery in Allentown, PA they made a big deal of "converting" that brewhouse to "fire brewing" (altho' my memory of it was that it was natural gas by that time). I don't recall any such proclaimations when they bought all the Schlitz plants or, quietly closed the home brewery in Detroit a few years later.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by steveh


Fret - don't discount "drinkability" as all the flavor of tap water.

S.
I don't - I'm referring to the comments of the rep for Stroh's beer. 90 Shilling is one of the most drinkable brews on the planet if you ask me! :)

[steveh]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
I'm referring to the comments of the rep for Stroh's beer.

I was referring to a usual marketing line from BMC; "Smooth and highly drinkable!"

S.

[Jake]

Budweiser uses words like clean and crisp.

Clean=tasteless and crisp=watery.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by steveh
I was referring to a usual marketing line from BMC; "Smooth and highly drinkable!"

S. Just like my tap water. :D

[hops99]

Taste The Cold!

[fretlessman71]

I CAN'T taste the cold - it's too darn cold! ;)

[The Alchemist]

I would suggest that the watering down of American beer has occurred gradually since Prohibition. I remember reading recently that A-B keeps samples of their beer over many years and have noticed a decline in hops since the early 80's. They may "bump" them up slightly.
Also, I am from small town America and I remember stories my Dad told me of growing up during the depression, fighting in Europe during WWII and subsequently coming home. He spoke of the local bars celebrating Bock Day in March. Now we were a small town of at our peak maybe 1500 people. This included about 10 bars in a relatively small area. Draft beer was still quite common when I was growing up in the 60's and 70's. I'm not sure all of the post-prohibition beer instantly went bland. And while all of the points that have been made I believe have validity, I think this was a gradual process influenced by many things. The bottom line is money and with marketing the way it developed over time, cheaper and more importantly more adjuncts became the norm(along with diminishing the hops).
There has been a renewed interest in homebrewing Pre-Prohibition lagers(I just did one myself and am anxiously waiting to try it).

[BikeNBrew]

I haven't had any Strohs in quite awhile, but do have some fond memories. I grew up in suburban Detroit, and it was the local beer. The first beer I got drunk on in High School. It had a reputation for giving wicked hangovers, which I can attest to...

I remember going to a concert (Zappa) with my older brother who lived downtown, and afterwards we stopped at a local bar for a beer. I was still underage, but got served anyway. Wasn't even a question- I ordered a Strohs. I was a beer can collector at the time, and was proud of our local brewery. At this time there was only one Strohs brewery, the original, on Gratiot in downtown Detroit. I remember that beer as one of the best I ever had. Fresh, too- less than a mile from the source. Strohs was very different than Miller or Bud- we couldn't get Coors yet. It was a malty, dry beer.

Unfortunately they got greedy and wanted to expand, then shut down the original brewery. Back in the mid-80s, they blew it up. My sister lived a block away in a fifth floor studio, and we watched it happen. Sad. Strohs remained a different beer than most, their light was actually pretty decent too, for a light that is. But I haven't had a Strohs in many years now. If I want to buy inexpensive "market" beers now, I generally get Molson Canadian.

[steveh]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Just like my tap water.

ExACTlee! ;)

S.

[Jake]

Welcome BikeNBrew! Always nice to see a fellow Michiganer. Is your Avator from the comics Calvin&Hobbs?

[BikeNBrew]

Originally posted by Jake
Welcome BikeNBrew! Always nice to see a fellow Michiganer. Is your Avator from the comics Calvin&Hobbs?

Thanks for the welcome, Jake- Where are you, northern lower or the UP? Yeah, that's Hobbs- found him on an avatar site.

[fretlessman71]

Speaking of avatars.... steveh, is that you or Jack Bauer? ;)

[Jake]

Originally posted by BikeNBrew
Thanks for the welcome, Jake- Where are you, northern lower or the UP? Yeah, that's Hobbs- found him on an avatar site.

Northern Lower. Lake Huron side. I loved the Calvin&Hobbs comics, to bad they are not in the papers anymore.

[patto1ro]

It´s not necessarily correct to assume that German brewers only picked up "bad habits" when they got to the USA.

1). Before 1906 the Reinheitsgebot only applied to Bavaria. In the rest of Germany brewers could use pretty much anything that was allowed in food.

2). Rice was the most popular adjucnt in North Germany - even more popular than sugar. The reason for it use wasn´t cost-saving (it was more expensive than barley malt) but because of the flavour and pale colour it gave the finished beer.

[Sladek]

Originally posted by The Alchemist
Also, I am from small town America and I remember stories my Dad told me of growing up during the depression, fighting in Europe during WWII and subsequently coming home. He spoke of the local bars celebrating Bock Day in March.
I'm jealous!

So, what is the difference between "pilsner" and "pilsener"? Linguistically, the "e" usually drops away in German when a derivational suffix is added, like "Dresden" becomes, in the adjective, "Dresdner". And Czechs don't refer to their beers in this way. Urquell is "Plzeň" and everything else of the style is "světlé". They don't even think of it as a "style".

Anyway, I too have long wondered about early American beer, as the light crappy lagers now known as simply "lager" can't have existed before the 1870s, as Pilsner Urquell was not making golden lagers before then. In fact, it didn't exist before then; the Plzeň Buerger were making dark lagers.

[steveh]

Originally posted by The Alchemist
He spoke of the local bars celebrating Bock Day in March.

Bock was big traditional carryover from German imigrants. I can remember seeking out Rhinelander and Huber bocks in springtime back in the late 70s. It was around then that the regionals started fading out, the bock tradition along with them.

Hark has posted that Cincinnati still carries on the bock celebration, and it looks like there are some good small breweries involved.
http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14229

S.

[Sladek]

Originally posted by steveh
Bock was big traditional carryover from German imigrants. I can remember seeking out Rhinelander and Huber bocks in springtime back in the late 70s. It was around then that the regionals started fading out, the bock tradition along with them. Such a shame...one of my uncles in Point worked at Heileman's many years ago and occasionally brews his own Bock. They are avid Point Bock drinkers. I have fond memories of Huber Bock but haven't had it since my Madison days. Sad that WI's rich beer tradition is a shadow of its former self.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Sladek
Sad that WI's rich beer tradition is a shadow of its former self.

I wouldn't go that far, there are new traditions being carried on and started all over Wisconsin with some great brews to match.

http://www.capital-brewery.com/events/recentevents.html
http://www.capital-brewery.com/images/2007bockfestpix2/index.html

S.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Speaking of avatars.... steveh, is that you or Jack Bauer? ;) You ignored this on PURPOSE, didn't you???

[steveh]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
You ignored this on PURPOSE, didn't you???

Well, I could tell you...

S.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by steveh
Bock was big traditional carryover from German imigrants. I can remember seeking out Rhinelander and Huber bocks in springtime back in the late 70s. It was around then that the regionals started fading out, the bock tradition along with them.

Hark has posted that Cincinnati still carries on the bock celebration, and it looks like there are some good small breweries involved.
http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14229

S. Leinenkugel also brewed a bock back then. So did Schells. Local brewers in our area did so too. back in the 60s and prior - Senate, Gunther, Richbrau and others used to brew it seasonally.
Pabst made a caramel colored beer that they called Bock well into the 70s. I recall it had a small amount of flavor or so we thought. We used to look for it in the spring.

There is an old poem entitled "When Bock is on the Bar" I wonder if I can locate it. I think a lot of brewers used it in advertising.

[B_rad1969]

From what I know.... Beer in Germany was thought of as liquid bread. Because of the lack of food. Therefore a good heavy beer was good for them. In America, beer was used to quench your thirst and not as a food substitute

[Richard English]

I would be very wary of trusting these kinds of urban myths. Just ask yourself a few questions to see the holes in this one.

When are we speaking of - the 1800s, the 1900s or now?
What did Germans eat if not bread?
Have all Americans always been so amazingly wealthy that each and every one of them always has more than enough to eat?
Have all German beers always been heavy and all American beers always light?

As I said, beware urban myths.

[BikeNBrew]

In much of Europe, especially the cities and villages, beer and wine were substitutes for drinkable water. Sanitation was pretty bad, and wells were shallow. So they used their surplus grains to make beer, which, as it was made from grains, they figured had some nutritional value. Probably their beer did, it had a lot of stuff in it, probably a lot more unfermentables than what we make. In America, at least in the early years, they made cider, because they didn't have a whole lot of grains to spare. Which of course led to hard cider.

As far as being a substitute for water, maybe BMC are just carrying on the tradition- hell, perfecting it!!

[Richard English]

Again, you need to be clear about what is being said here.

In most of the WORLD including the USA, water was the cause of many diseases and alcoholic drinks offered some measure of protection. But it was not until the discovery of micro-organisms (in Europe) that the principles of disease transmission began to be understood.

In particular Cholera was a major killer and it was not until Dr John Snow, in London, discovered that the source of a major cholera outbreak was the public pump and had its handle removed, thus stopping the outbreak. The workers in the local brewery, incidentally, were not infected since the beer was brewed from the brewery's own water supply.

It was in Europe, not the USA, where dawned the realisation that that pure water was necessary to avoid the spread of disease, and thus the theory that European beer drinkers drank the stuff because of the foul European water, whereas in the USA, the purity of supply meant that was not necessary - does not hold water ;-)

There is a pub in Soho, near to the infamous pump, that is named after the celebrated Dr Snow and this story is told on its walls. I have drunk many a pint there and would be happy to share one with you when next you're in London. If you're not likely to be coming to London to see for yourself, you can find out about Dr Snow and the pub on the UCLA site here http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/Snow/snowpub.htmll

Cider is a drink indigenous to Southern England and Northern France, where is has been brewed for hundreds of years (long before the USA was even a glimmer in Columbus's father's eyes).

True cider is always alcoholic; the non-alcoholic drink made in the USA is an aberration - possibly one created by Prohibition, although I have never studied its genesis. True West Country ciders are often brewed to levels of 10% abv and are a very serious drink.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by Richard English


True cider is always alcoholic; the non-alcoholic drink made in the USA is an aberration - possibly one created by Prohibition, although I have never studied its genesis.

I'm not sure when the definitions changed in the US, but Prohibition is always a likely suspect <g>. I don't know how much government regulations apply, but they are always contradictory, allowing names like "root beer" and "ginger ale" to used for soft drinks, but giving brewers a hard time with "barleywine".

In most of the US, unfiltered, fresh-pressed apple juice (usually sold in plastic jugs similar to milk jugs in the US), murky and brown, bought from orchards and in some supermarkets is commonly called "cider". This helps differentiate it from the pale yellow, cystal clear, filtered, chemically altered, sugar added, pasteurized bottled stuff sold in supermarkets (Motts is a popular US brand) called "apple juice".

Some states now mandate that "cider" be pasteurized due to occassional outbreaks of e-coli linked to cider. In addition, many producers chemically preserve their cider by adding sulfites.

What's know as "cider" (the alcoholic stuff) in much of the rest of the world was called "hard cider" in the most of the US (now that commercial alcoholic ciders, US and imported, are becoming more available, that seems to be changing).

Distilled "hard cider" (either through freezing or heat distillation) was commonly referred to as "apple jack" in the US, altho' a commercially available liquor known as "Apple Jack" from Lairds is sadly now mostly a blended with 65% neutral spirits beverage. To get a 100% apple product, one has to buy their "Apple Brandy".

In some ways it's not a lot different from the confusion when an American refers to "beer and ale" as two different products, while the UK drinker refers to "beer and lager" for the same two general items.

[Richard English]

Quote "...while the UK drinker refers to "beer and lager" for the same two general items...."

I'd have thought that was a more common confusion in other European countries; we are pretty definite about the difference in the UK.

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...while the UK drinker refers to "beer and lager" for the same two general items...."

I'd have thought that was a more common confusion in other European countries; we are pretty definite about the difference in the UK.

There's no such thing as ale in Bayern so down here it's "Bier and that flat dishwashing water the brits drink"... :D

For the record, I've tried Ale and I've liked it. Some of it quite a bit actually. My Dad still spits fire and brimstone when I even mention it in the same sentence as beer though and from conversations I can tell a LOT of older Bavarians feel the same.

[TrojanAnteater]

Originally posted by Richard English

There is a pub in Soho, near to the infamous pump, that is named after the celebrated Dr Snow and this story is told on its walls. I have drunk many a pint there and would be happy to share one with you when next you're in London.

That story is also a pretty standard staple of any microbiology course or other biology courses discussing microorganisms here in the States. Long live John Snow.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by Stahlsturm
There's no such thing as ale in Bayern so down here it's "Bier and that flat dishwashing water the brits drink"... :D

For the record, I've tried Ale and I've liked it. Some of it quite a bit actually. My Dad still spits fire and brimstone when I even mention it in the same sentence as beer though and from conversations I can tell a LOT of older Bavarians feel the same.
Actually I should have said "Other European countries - excluding Germany, Belgium and the Czech Republic...". I meant those countries Spain, for example) where pale yellow chemical fizz is the drink that most people call beer.

[chazwicke]

I believe the term liquid bread comes from the Lentin Season. The monks would traditionally fast or give up certain staple foods. But they were allowed to drink their liquid bread during this time.

[Richard English]

I can't say I've ever heard the term but I can understand why it might have come about. After all, both bread and beer are transformed by the action of yeast. Even before yeast's action was fully understood people would have noted the similarities.

[MeridianFC]

FWIW, growing up my best friend's mother was German and she frequently referred to beer as "liquid bread". It was also her belief that growing boys needed a small measure of "liquid bread" with their meals. I still have a special place in my heart for her.

[steveh]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I believe the term liquid bread comes from the Lentin Season. The monks would traditionally fast or give up certain staple foods. But they were allowed to drink their liquid bread during this time.

Chaz is on the right target here. I don't think beer was ever used as nutritional supplement at any other time - especially in Germany.

Stahl - the big misconception among beer drinkers these days is that anything top fermented should be called "ale." Bet all the Weizen brewers would be surprised to know their beers are ales.

S.

[steveh]

An American History

A new book by Bob Skilnik. To quote:

"As Beer & Food: An American History details, beer in this country has gone through a plethora of changes, long before Prohibition and long after. To point to one episode of American history as the defining turning point in American beer quality is to ignore the impact of food control legislation, wars, trade embargoes, and even the effects of technology. There are many notes in the symphony of American beer history. Prohibition is just one of them."

The "Symphony of American beer history," yike.

S.

[Sladek]

Originally posted by Stahlsturm
There's no such thing as ale in Bayern so down here it's "Bier and that flat dishwashing water the brits drink"... :D

For the record, I've tried Ale and I've liked it. Some of it quite a bit actually. My Dad still spits fire and brimstone when I even mention it in the same sentence as beer though and from conversations I can tell a LOT of older Bavarians feel the same.
The Czechs react in the same way. Very, very rigid.

[steveh]

Originally posted by steveh
99% of the American GIs wanted to get back home to what was familiar to them, what was the norm before the war.

Originally posted by steveh
Read more of Stephen E. Ambrose's works, beer wasn't as important as getting back home and away from the war.

Out of shear happenstance, I'm reading "The Victors" by Mr. Ambrose and came to this particular paragraph:

"Nearly every one of those 4 milion men (US G.I.s*) on the Western Front was homesick. Lonliness was their most shared emotion. Christmas meant family, and reminders of Christmas were all around these men at war. Family and home meant life. The yearning for home was overpowering. Beyond thinking of loved ones, the men in the holes thought of the most ordinary day-to-day activities of civilian life—being able to flick a switch to light a room, no need for blackout curtains, able to smoke at night, hot food on dishes served at a table, cold beer, a bed!, clean sheets, regular showers, changes of clothes, nobody shooting at you!—they thought of these things and could have cried for missing them."

*My footnote added for context from this section of the book where Ambrose is writing of the Americans - as well as it could be any soldier on the Western Front, but for the "cold beer" reference -- and even that is eclipsed by the yearning to just be home. Period.

S.

[Richard English]

Of course, this reference is to WW1, long before Prohibition and the supposed move to Pilsner type beers.

So it would seem that the GI's yearning, nearly a century ago, was for "cold beer", not simply "beer"., which I suspect would have been the Tommy's yearning.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by Richard English
Of course, this reference is to WW1, long before Prohibition and the supposed move to Pilsner type beers.



Isn't The Victors by Ambrose about World War II? (Altho' the use of the term "Western Front" in the quote could be confusing.)

While the dates for National Prohibition in the US are given as January 16, 1919 for passage of the Eighteenth Amendment (to become effective 1 year later) and October 28, 1919 for the Volstead Act, many breweries stopped brewing before that. In Newark, NJ, for instance, the NY Times reported in it's Nov. 30, 1918 edition that the 14 breweries in and around the city "ended beer making at midnight tonight" . And the beer they stopped making was already compromised by then, since, by Presidential order, beer had been limited to 2.75% and under since December, 1917. This and the Lever Act of August, 1917- which had pretty much shut down distilleries by banning their use of "foodstuffs" for alcohol production- are known as "war prohibition".

Since the end of WWI is generally considered to be 11/11/18, one has to assume that returning US troops wouldn't have had a lot of the already weak beer to drink by the time the came home, especially considering that many Western states already had local Prohibition laws by the mid-teens.

[Richard English]

I don't know the book - but there was no "Western Front" as such in WW2. Indeed, there was very little trench warfare at all.

Interesting that beer quality had been so compromised even before prohibition. Of course, if is possible to brew a tasty beer of under 3% - many UK Milds are of that category. Harveys Dark Mild is 3% and Weltons Pride and Joy (a low gravity bitter more than a light mild) is only 2.7%. Both are very nice drinks and ideal if you want to spend most of a summer's day drinking without falling down.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by Richard English
I don't know the book - but there was no "Western Front" as such in WW2. Indeed, there was very little trench warfare at all.



Yeah, I thought it was an unusual phrase to be used (especially capitalized), since it's so associated with WWI and trench warfare. Perhaps the quote, while in a book subtitled "Eisenhower and His Boys: The Men of World War II" http://tinyurl.com/2p8k4t , is still about the First World War?
(A search on the above link seems to show they're WWII references, tho'.)

Originally posted by Richard English


Interesting that beer quality had been so compromised even before prohibition. Of course, if is possible to brew a tasty beer of under 3%

Yes, but I wonder exactly WHAT those breweries still open were brewing- a totally "new" beer rather their pre-War recipes, or just a weak beer or a semi-near-beer where fermentation was stopped and/or alcohol boiled or evaporated off?

Originally posted by Richard English
- many UK Milds are of that category. Harveys Dark Mild is 3% and Weltons Pride and Joy (a low gravity bitter more than a light mild) is only 2.7%. Both are very nice drinks and ideal if you want to spend most of a summer's day drinking without falling down.

Yeah, in the US we don't have anything like that -and most of the UK milds we get- like Gale's and Sarah Hughes- are on the high side of the style, as well as the contract version of Mackeson's being 5%.

Besides a short-lived fad for "low alcohol" macro beers a decade or so ago (which were basically just MEGA-LIGHTs) the only thing I can think of in that range in the US is (was?) Berliner Kindl Weisse, at 2 1/2%. (Did I read that it's been discontinued?). Unfortunately, it's one of the most expensive imports in the US- $12 a sixpack.
There was a history of "weiss beer" in the US (it even get a mention in The Practical Brewer from the 1940's) but I'm not sure when and where it was brewed (sources usually just mention "some breweries in the late 19th century" marketing it).

[chazwicke]

Prohibition started earlier in many states. In Virginia it was 1916. Maine had long been a prohibitionist state. Mid 1800s I think?

We do get Coniston Bluebird here bottle conditioned. It is 4.3 but on cask I think it is 3.8% And a favorite from the UK is Woodfordes Wherry which is 3.?%

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
I don't know the book - but there was no "Western Front" as such in WW2. Indeed, there was very little trench warfare at all.

What the bloody hell are you talking about? What does the term "Western Front" have to do with trench warfare, except for the period of time it might be illustrating?

Mr. Ambrose was one of the world's reknowned historians on the subject of WW2. As I suggested earlier - read some of his work. It could enlighten your perspective on history.

In my own defense, why do you suppose I'd change the line of thinking in the subject matter? We've been discussing the effect of WW2 on U.S. beer, I'm not going to jump a 30 year period with no indication.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by jesskidden
Yeah, I thought it was an unusual phrase to be used (especially capitalized), since it's so associated with WWI and trench warfare.

I quoted Professor Ambrose verbatum, including caps. I think I'll defer to his expertise.

Perhaps the quote, while in a book subtitled "Eisenhower and His Boys: The Men of World War II" http://tinyurl.com/2p8k4t , is still about the First World War?

Given that title, what do you suppose?

S.

[Jeff]

I don't know that I would call Ambrose a reknowned historian after his plagiarism has come to light.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by steveh


Given that title, what do you suppose?

S.

Hey, I "thought" it was WWII, but Richard English didn't and like him I first think of the First World War when I see expression "Western Front".

Certainly it's *possible*, that in a book about Eisenhower (can't recall if he was in Europe for WWI) and/or the US military fighting a war overseas, an author *could* refer back to US experiences in another war.

A search for "World War I" and "Civil War", for instance, shows a number of "hits" on the web book linked above, which is a pretty cool feature, after all. "Beer" turns up 3 hits, including a reference to Schlitz, nothing for "ale". <g>

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Prohibition started earlier in many states. In Virginia it was 1916. Maine had long been a prohibitionist state. Mid 1800s I think?



Yeah, a bunch of states had a number of Dry periods (Iowa seems to top the list five separate eras- surprisingly Rhode Island is second with 4) and I was just generalizing when I said "Western states" for the area that had state Prohibition immediately before National Prohibition mostly because those states had well-known breweries that closed "early" unlike states like Georgia or West Virginia in the east.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Jeff
I don't know that I would call Ambrose a reknowned historian after his plagiarism has come to light.

Haven't heard any news on this (got a link?). I'd find it surprising and the definition of "plagiarism" by his detractors could be blurry - especially when writing about a subject on which so many have already written. But I'd have to see just how it balances to his contribution to history before I discredit everything he's written.

Jess - you fell into Richard's trap. He can't tell me he didn't know all along that wasn't written about WW2 -- as said, why would I jump 30 years in the middle of a conversation?

BTW - IIRC, Eisenhower didn't make it overseas in WW1, and nearly didn't go in WW2.

S.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by steveh
What the bloody hell are you talking about? What does the term "Western Front" have to do with trench warfare, except for the period of time it might be illustrating?
S.

"All Quiet on the Western Front" is a novel by Erich Maria Remarque, dealing with the horrors of trench warfare in WW1, subsequently made into a film. Most people, when speaking of the Western Front, make a connection with this (and thus with trench warfare) - not with WW2 and the Blitzkrieg style of war.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by steveh


Jess - you fell into Richard's trap. He can't tell me he didn't know all along that wasn't written about WW2 -- as said, why would I jump 30 years in the middle of a conversation?
S.

If you could help me by unravelling the double negatives I'll try to answer you.

[MeridianFC]

FWIW "the Western Front" has always implied WWI to me. "the western front" I'd take as applying to any front not eastern, northern or southern in a referenced conflict. That said a quick search reveals that there was a "western front" in each conflict.

I digress, in any case to help focus the discussion, I take it as a fairly obvious statement that any solider in harms way, certainly one who has been in that circumstance for a long time, will want to not be in that position. If someone was shooting at me the first thing I'd want is to not be in a situation where I was being shot at, and then I'd probably put a home, hearth, and beer on the list.

To drag this back on topic, a mighty task if ever there was one in any internet discussion:

Q: Did the large US brewers ever make good tasting beer?

A: Don't really know.

talking points and questions for further investigation:

*Prohibition had an effect on general US beer quality & production
*There are other factors, not just prohibition
*The military conflicts (both WWI & WWII) effect on material probably plays a roll
*Did the precursor prohibition low alcohol beers play a roll in the modern macro flavor profile?
*It's been surmised elsewhere that older generations beers might not be to our taste, though that usually refers to preindustrialization, cetainly pre Pasteur (Louis died in 1895, AB formed in 1852, Coors 1873, Miller 1855) so there's definitely questions about the processes, ingredients, and recipes the big guys used at the time of all this scientific discovery.
*AB claims to have used the same recipe for Budweiser for at least 100 years.
*The role of women's taste, as specifically relates to WWII, on beer might be a factor (women are theorized to in general be more averse to hops bitterness).
*the Role of the other brewers at the time before the big 3 had a stranglehold on the market is an area worth exploring (the large regionals, the various immigrant brewing enclaves, etc.)
*As I noted much of this will be conjecture unless any survivors with good taste memory or any documentation with any descriptions (tasting notes, brewing information) can be found.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by steveh
Haven't heard any news on this (got a link?). I'd find it surprising and the definition of "plagiarism" by his detractors could be blurry - especially when writing about a subject on which so many have already written. But I'd have to see just how it balances to his contribution to history before I discredit everything he's written.

You really didn't hear anything about this? It was a pretty big news stories awhile back.

If you type in "Stephen Ambrose Plagiarism" into google you will find more than a few credible articles. I grabbed one from forbes that I haven't read yet.

http://www.forbes.com/home/2002/02/27/0227ambrose.html

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed Wild Blue, but more for the story than anything else. I did not consider it an historic account of World War II. I most enjoyed the book because my uncle served on a B-24, and was stationed in the same location as George McGovern.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Jeff
You really didn't hear anything about this? It was a pretty big news stories awhile back.

No, I missed it back in '02 - and that article seems to have a lot of speculation and editorial. Whatever became of all the accusations anyway, died away with Ambrose?

As I said before, when so many have written about a subject, it's difficult to dissect what's footnote and straight remembrance of learning. I quote Jackson and Eckhardt all the time without actually using quotes, but that's who I learned beer from.

Richard -- all of my negatives are quite singular. ;)
Now convince us you aren't making waves for the sake of?

And I have 2 copies of Remarque's novel on my shelves, doesn't mean he copyrighted the term. And I'd venture to say he was writing about the horrors of war, period. Not trench warfare in particular.

Meridian -- thanks for the confirmation, I hadn't had the chance to research the term.

S.

(am I really defending Stephen E. Ambrose? Who next, William L. Shirer?)

[Jeff]

Originally posted by steveh
(am I really defending Stephen E. Ambrose? Who next, William L. Shirer?)

I've got a copy os Shirer's book right next to Wild Blue, was not aware of any controversy surrounding his work.

As I said before, I did not take time to read the Forbes article, I apologize if it was more an editorial than news.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Jeff
I've got a copy os Shirer's book right next to Wild Blue, was not aware of any controversy surrounding his work.

It was a comparison of 2 great writers on a similar subject...let's not start any rumors!!

As I said before, I did not take time to read the Forbes article, I apologize if it was more an editorial than news.

Not your fault at all, I was just making a personal observation. And I apologize for not thanking you for the link.

S.

[chazwicke]

I recall the allegations in the news. I think the same story also made the same claims against Doris Kerns Goodwin and another noted historical scholar and author.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
[B

To drag this back on topic, a mighty task if ever there was one in any internet discussion:

Q: Did the large US brewers ever make good tasting beer?

A: Don't really know.

talking points and questions for further investigation:

*There are other factors, not just prohibition

*As I noted much of this will be conjecture unless any survivors with good taste memory or any documentation with any descriptions (tasting notes, brewing information) can be found. [/B]

I've been doing a lot of research on a few old breweries lately (thanks to a forced retirement and cold weather <g>), so this topic has been on my mind, especially since reading Ambitious Brew (a controversial book, one with benefits and flaws- I should re-read it before I post, but...).

A couple of thoughts.

I think I usually think of the evolutionary predecessors of "typical US industrial light lager" (or whatever your favorite term of endearment for it may be) - often lumped together as "pilsners"- when the discussion of the lager beer revolution in the US in the 1800's comes up. Certainly, beer became a lot more popular and the industry became dominated by German brewers mid-century, after the introduction of lager yeast by- well, that's still up in the air.

But, I'm wrong in that sort of short-hand thinking. There were actually many steps along the way from 1800's beer to 2000 beer, of course, and a big change was from just "lager" beer to "pilsner/Czech/Bohemian" beer (obvious when one thinks about it, since Pilsner Urquell was only first being brewed during the lager revolution in the US in the 1840's).

While the popularity of A-B's "Budweiser" (which doesn't appear until the mid-70's) has been discussed in the above book (which often reads like PR from A-B) and elsewhere, it's often noted that it was in comparision to not just "heavy ales and porters" but also to other lagers in the US- best thought of, prehaps, as Bavarian style vs. Bohemian style lagers in the US.

Here's an interesting quote from the book "25 Years of Brewing" by Geo. Ehret (Ehret's NYC firm, Hell's Gate Brewery, was the #1 brewer in the late 1800's, altho' eventually surpassed by Pabst) from 1891:

(speaking of US barley usage) "The data here will be better understood, if it be borne in mind that all light beers of that peculiarly vinous taste, which has late become somewhat popular, are made of malt and rice or corn, as in the case of the excellent Pilsen brands. The prevailing taste, however, still calls for a brewage of a deep reddish-brown color, peculiar to heavily-malted beers, such as emanate from Hell's Gate Brewery."

As for the amazing growth in popularity of lager beer in general (esp. compared to the "older" ales and porters) consider that P. Ballantine and Sons was, in 1877 the #4 brewer (after Ehret, Pabst and B&E in Phila) and brewed only ale and porter. Two years later, they bought a failing lager brewery in Newark -Schalk (which failed in part due to a big bill owed to Ballantine, also a maltster, for malt.)

The new lager brewery was run for a time as a separate company, Ballantine & Co., (apparently Peter Ballantine's sons were against the purchase). The new lager brewery (which unlike the ale division, didn't bottle, only keg) grew from 40,000 bbl. to 227,000 bbl. in the decade 1880-90, so that by 1891 it was outselling the ale brewery's products (202,000). A few year before Prohibition (and after they started bottling them), lager beers were said to 76% of Ballantine sales.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by jesskidden
There were actually many steps along the way from 1800's beer to 2000 beer, of course, and a big change was from just "lager" beer to "pilsner/Czech/Bohemian" beer (obvious when one thinks about it, since Pilsner Urquell was only first being brewed during the lager revolution in the US in the 1840's).



Great post JessK.

I hadn't considered the highlighted point. Does anyone know if any of the current big 3 ever brewed, primarily, darker colored lagers or did they get into the game on Bohemian Pilsner style wave?

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
Great post JessK.

Does anyone know if any of the current big 3 ever brewed, primarily, darker colored lagers or did they get into the game on Bohemian Pilsner style wave?

Well, Anheuser-Busch (and predecessor companies) existed for a few decades before they created their "Budweiser" and even then, it was something of a contract brew for an area restauranteur and they didn't acquire the rights to the name until the 1880's IIRC.

In the late 1890's, A-B's line up included beers labeled "Black & Tan", "Muenchener", "Old Burgandy", "Erlanger", etc.

Pabst's late 1800's line up included beers labeled "Export", "Select", "Bavarian", "Bohemian" and "Hofbrau".

I believe Miller had similar line-ups (altho' Miller was actually pretty small for most of it's history compared to it's Milwaukee neighbors Pabst, Schlitz and Blatz. Even in the 1960's, it was only the #11 brewer in the US- behind even regionals like Schaefer, Ballantine, Rheingold and Hamm).

Coors certainly emphasized just it's one beer for many years, but it wouldn't be surprising to find other styles were once brewed and marketed (pretty sure they had a "bock" at least).

At the time beers were marketed more by "style" than "brand", and, as seen by the above, many styles were name after the geographic origin- other common ones of the era were "Vienna", "Culmbacher"and, of course, "Pilsener" and even "Budweiser".

Thus A-B's problem with claiming the name as their own trademark over the years- it began, like all the above, more as a descriptive style name and was brewed by a number of companies- all of whom A-B went after in court eventually. In the US, this one seemed to last the longest (even tho' they were in and out of court for decades)-

http://www.metnews.com/articles/2005/reminiscing080405.htm

[steveh]

Originally posted by jesskidden
I believe Miller had similar line-ups

I have a Miller tap handle that proclaims Munchner. Though, based on its size and shape (4 inches square +/-), I'd guess it to be 50s vintage.

S.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by steveh
I have a Miller tap handle that proclaims Munchner. Though, based on its size and shape (4 inches square +/-), I'd guess it to be 50s vintage.

S.

Oh, yeah, that sounds familiar. I remember a lot of bars in New England when I lived up there in the 70's would often have a tap handle that just said "Bavarian" and it was the dark version of whatever beer they had on tap (usually Falstaff or Narragansett, but possibly other common NE brands like Carling and Knickerbocker, as well).

I think the tradition of offering a dark draught beer lasted longer than the bottled/canned versions (think of famous bars like McSorley's and Jacob Wirth's in Boston, etc). I remember Schaefer had a draft-only product called "Braunslager" for a time and Falstaff continued making Ballantine Dark Beer for awhile, too. Michelob Dark, at the time, was considered a rare find, as well (I remember finding it in Pennsylvania once, and even tho' I was there looking for the local beers on tap- I even had one <g>)

[Acmemfg]

Pabst used to market a reasonably good Bock beer about 30 years back. Never saw it on tap; only in cans. It was creatively called "Pabst Bock". No misleading pseudo-Teutonic names for these guys (now Andeker..that's another story).

[chazwicke]

Pabst brought out a bock seasonally for many years. It was at least darker in color. I drank it and liked it back in the 70s. Doubt if I would now though. Yuengling Porter was a good brew available during those beer deficient times in the States.

I was distressed to see Miller taps in several pubs in Scotland last week.

[The Alchemist]

I think I mentioned earlier that many US breweries made a Spring bock. There was a Bock Day release in March. I remember my Dad talking about this. This would have been from the 30's til ?