What Should I do?

[Fast_Eddy]

This weekend I'll be brewing my annual czech pils.

I'm giving you guys the choice of how many decoctions I should pull. I've done three before and it took forever but it was super freakin' delicious. So here's your chance to suck up my time.....

[fretlessman71]

If you're going to do it, you better do it right. Just think... the more of these you do, the easier they'll get, right? You're doing this so you'll have a GREAT beer rather than a good one... so go for three!

Besides, I'M not doing the work.... ;)

[brewmonkey]

With the malts available and the high modifications decoctions are not needed and area waste of time IMHO. Remember, they were invented when malt was undermodified. Unless you got your hands on some moravian undermodified malt, go with an infusion mash.

[Tweek]

I voted for three because I revel in others pain.


however if I were you I would go with none. I myslef have never done a dection but have been there for a few and was not able to taste a diference, I was told this is due to the high quality of malts like BM said. I think you would be wasting your time doing a decoction mash.

[Fast_Eddy]

My HBS has undermodified moravian - which is what I'd use if I go with three or two. I'll use fully modified pils if I go with one or none.

IIRC, Noonan makes a compelling argument for at least one decoction to infuse up to proteolytic activity when making a very light colored lager(eg pilsener) - even when using fully modified grain. The thrust of it was a more complete degradation of large proteins to smaller head supporting proteins.

Richman makes the point of higher melanoidin production - but that's fairly easily reproduced, IMO, with a touch more munich.

More voters? It's 50-50.

[brewmonkey]

If you go with the undermodified then do the triple decoction. No sense in half-assing it.

Most people I know of go for the decoctions for the melanoidins like you mention, hence my reply that we have ways around that and they are just as good.

My Pilsner is not a decoction but a multi-infusion including dough in with cold water and the first rest at 95F, then on from there. But I also use a European Pilsner malt with a touch of melanoidin malt.

[fretlessman71]

Hey... *I* want to be a moderator! It means I can goof up people's polls to suit my tastes, right? Sounds like fun!.... ;)

JK brewmonkey... doing a great job as always.

[brewmonkey]

Had to modify it so I could vote properly. :D

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Had to modify it so I could vote properly.

Thx Ed - fat lot of help that is. :p

Now it's 2-2-1......no clear winner in sight.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
...

My Pilsner is not a decoction but a multi-infusion including dough in with cold water and the first rest at 95F, then on from there. But I also use a European Pilsner malt with a touch of melanoidin malt.

Do you go the 95, 113, 132, 149, 168 route? Or do you do a combo step around 122 for the proteases?

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Fast_Eddy
Do you go the 95, 113, 132, 149, 168 route? Or do you do a combo step around 122 for the proteases?


The steps are almost right on with mine except I prefer 148 for rest and 172 for mash out.

[Caffinehog]

If you're doing this with soft water, (which you should for authentic taste,) you'd better have pH paper to tell you if your mash is acidic enough. If it is, a two step would work fine. If not, you'll need an acid rest. If using hard water, two steps should be fine.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Caffinehog
If you're doing this with soft water, (which you should for authentic taste,) you'd better have pH paper to tell you if your mash is acidic enough. If it is, a two step would work fine. If not, you'll need an acid rest. If using hard water, two steps should be fine.

That is the rest conducted at 95 degrees.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by Caffinehog
If you're doing this with soft water, (which you should for authentic taste,) you'd better have pH paper to tell you if your mash is acidic enough. If it is, a two step would work fine. If not, you'll need an acid rest. If using hard water, two steps should be fine.

Softer water usually has less CO3--,HCO3- and as a result a lower pH. Hard water(usually more alkaline) should have the pH lowered(slaked lime, acidification, acid rest, etc) by removing CO3-- and HCO3- when brewing a lighter beer. As a general rule a pils should never be brewed with water that has more than 50-75 ppm (bi-)carbonate. See Fix's "Principles of Brewing Science" for an excellent discussion of this. As pH decreases

CO3-- -> HCO3- -> H2CO3(carbonic acid) -> H20 +CO2

[Beerconnoisseur]

With no decoctions, hopefully there will be less risk of HSA. And you can always step mash with a protein rest if you want those large proteins broken up.

But those're my $0.02....

[Fast_Eddy]

Well I'm off to HBS and still haven't decided......

[brewmonkey]

HSA is not something homebrewers really should be concerned with. It generally is not a problem when the beer is consumed over a short period of time, unlike a package brewery where it may sit in a warehouse/display for some time and be months before it is consumed.

[Fast_Eddy]

Well - here's what I done did....

I did a pseudo-decoction/single infusion. I wanted the richer melanoidins and also a protein rest so I was creative. Rested most of the grain at 122F while I had a medium thick decoction going. Decoction start at 122F raised to and rested at 148 for 15 minutes. Raised to boil. Infused main mash (after 15 minute decoction boil) to 148F for 50 minutes. Good conversion. We'll see how it comes out.

[Fast_Eddy]

Put this bad boy to bed twenty minutes ago. A long brew day - 7 hours. Damn near had a stuck sparge. I didn't give proper credit to the amount of proteins that would be coagulated by the decoction and the protein rest. Lot of powdery proteinaceous matter on top of the grain. The wort, after the boil, had a great color and tasted perfect. I'm eyeing the National Homebrew competition in Vegas.

We'll see...

[BucksBrew]

[i] I'm eyeing the National Homebrew competition in Vegas.

We'll see... [/B]

I made my first All Grain a couple of weeks ago. I tasted it last night and it tastes great!

I thought of looking for a place to maybe enter it after my first year of brewing!

Maybe?.....we'll see...

[Fast_Eddy]

Still lagering - man it's so hard to wait to make a good lager. Haven't even tasted it yet but I think I will this weekend.

[Fast_Eddy]

Tasted it (several times :) ) and it's very good. Still needs a couple more weeks of lagering. I'm not sure if it's going to be as good as I had hoped but sometimes it goes that way...Not quite as clean as I'd like.

[BucksBrew]

I made my 1st Ag on 1-24-04. today is 3-12-04, I think it's ready to keg and drink by the weekend! It will be 7 weeks old on Saturday. I would have never thought I could wait for beer like this when I first started! haha

I think that is why I was having problems internally with the beer at first, I was drinking it too green! haha


Fast Eddy: My 2nd AG was/is a Becks Lager Clone using Wyeast #2007. You said you used that before and the krausen was pudding like. When it's finished fermenting, does the pudding drop down into the wort? Or does it just stop and I'll have siphon through it?

Thanks

[Tweek]

Not Fast Eddy but I have used some yeasts where the Krausen produces was very think and once done never quite broke up completely and sank, so I did just siphon it off and left it behind.

Waiting for your beer to properly condition while it may be painstaking is well worth it in the end. Nothing like a well made beer in its prime. This is why one must own several carboys so that several batches can be going at any given time and then things will start to line up and the waiting wont be as hard when you have stuff on tap :)

[BucksBrew]

I bought 5-6 corny's with hopes of having 3 beers on tap along with a half of Sierra in my converted freezer.

That has yet to happen! My wife gives me too much flack sometimes! I try to explain to her about aging and creating inventory! She says I'll have plenty of time to brew when the kids move out or quit hanging out with us. But that is 10-15 years away! All I want is 4-5 hours every 2 weeks! ha ha

That is why I want to increase my batch size to at least 10 gallons at a time. Ideally I'd like to buy 3-60 Qt. Polar ware pots with spigots and thermometers to do double batches. Or just buy converted kegs to do 5-15 gallon batches. The downside with making 15 gallons is you better like the beer you just made.

Back to the topic, looks like I will siphon through the Krausen when the ferment is finished. I forget when I made that batch, but it's been over 12-15 days.

Thanks

[Fast_Eddy]

I almost never allow the kraeusen to drop back into a lager. I usually rack out from under it once the most vigorous part of the ferment is complete.

[BucksBrew]

I was thinking the same thing, sorta like reverse trub!

Maybe I'll check the bubble count and rack to a secondary this weekend.

[Fast_Eddy]

On the pils - it was just a little too sweet because it lacked hop presence - aroma. Today I made an aroma tea from saaz and added 8 oz. We'll see how it goes......

[Fast_Eddy]

Well, this beer only scored a 26 at NHC but I think it's primarily due to how I bottled it - picnic tap with a 12 inch length of hose. It was a delicious beer on tap but definitely lost something with the low carbonation. Oh well - I re-brewed it 3 weeks ago and had enough sense this time to fill 8 bottles.