Forced Carbonation

[daveyP]

I've been brewing about two years and started out bottle conditioning my brew. The last four or five batches I've tried forced carbonation in a conry keg. I've ended up with foamy but under carbonated ale. There is a lot of conflicting info out there as to how to force carbonate. Any tips?
Hoppy brewing to all........

[Tweek]

Force carbonation is a combination of lbs of pressure and temperature of your beer. The colder it is the less lbs you need. When you are force carbonating you need to shake the keg until you can no longer hear the hiss of your c02 tank, this usually takes a few minutes. Then you need to wait a day for it to settle. plus you need to do it on the out of the corny keg. If you do it through the gas in then you will have minimal beer exposure to the gas causing your beer to just be under high pressure, which would give you low carbonation and lots of foam.

hope this helps

[daveyP]

Thanks, I was doing it on the in side. It makes more since on the out side with the tube at the bottom.
Thanks again, D

[danno]

(I'm waiting for Richard to tell us all we're the disciples of satan for force carbing... :D )

Foamy but undercarbonated? Couple of things to check come to mind:

How long is your tap line? If you're using 3/16" ID beer line, you want to have about a half a foot of line per PSI to balance your system.

Are you using real beverage dispensing tubing and not hardware store stuff? For the beer line, you want the good stuff because the interior walls are smoother, which would keep it from foaming while dispensing...

[daveyP]

Yep, I'm using the real beer dispencing stuff. 3/16" beer tubing. 3.5 feet. Disciples of satan, I read an interesting story about forced vs. bottle conditioning. I can't remember the whole thing, but the bottom line is that CO2 molucules are CO2 molucules. They don't know if they are being produed by fermentation or if they come out of a tank.

[matt]

I remember reading the article you're talking about as well, but I also remember the rubuttal, which my palate seems to agree with.

The rebuttal went something like this...

Yes a CO2 molecule is a CO2 molecule. What the hell does that have to do with beer carbonation? It's not like one bubble of CO2 == one molecule of CO2. Natural fermentation causes a more even distribution of CO2 in solution than forced carbonation generally. Forced carbonation can come close to the gas profile of natural carbonation if applied and held over a long period of time, a much longer period than it would take to just let the beer condition naturally. There was also somehting about carbonic acid that I don't remember...

That said, you may still want sediment free draft beer. In my experience its much easier to seal up a keg and let it condition naturally, then transfer under pressure to a serving keg. Here's how to do it. Brew beer. Ferment beer. Transfer fermented beer to a keg, add sugar, seal up under minimal pressure. Beer will carbonate itself after several days/weeks/whatever. Here's where it gets tricky... but in my mind not as tricky as force carbonating and certainly more consistent in terms of results for the average homebrewer.

0. Chill beer, preferably to colder than serving temp.

1. Connect gas to gas in, and a faucet to beer out. Draw off sediment via normal method, and taste some of the beer. Beer good, proceed. Beer bad, weep.

2. After tasting and drawing off trub, disconnect facuet from beer out line and connect a tube from the beer out line of keg #1 to the beer out line of keg#2. What you do with the rest of keg #2's parts sort of depends on how anal you are. I leave my lid off, because only minial carbonation is lost that way, and I make low CO2 beers to begin with. But the other options are to seal up keg #2 and rely on the pressure relief valve to maintain a proper pressure, or you could attache a regulator or adjustable pressure relief valve to the gas in spout which is where excess pressure will want to escape from. Its generally a good idea to fill keg #2 with CO2 (cold CO2 if possible) before filling it as well as this will keep more CO2 in the beer, but I don't generally do this step.

3. Apply pressure on gas-in of keg #1 until beer starts to flow from keg#1 to the bottom of keg#2. If you notice excessive foaming, drive the beer with a lower pressure. As soon as Keg#2 is full, put the top on seal it up.

To me this method is more consistent than trying to force carbonate, its just less work, and I think the results taste better. Of course if you need carbonated beer in a hurry and have fermented beer just waiting in a carboy, then force carbonation is the way to go.

[matt]

Damn me for not proof reading. I don't actually think that rubuttal is a word. :-)

[danno]

Originally posted by matt
...To me this method is more consistent than trying to force carbonate, its just less work, and I think the results taste better.

Less work than hooking up the gas and letting it sit for a couple of weeks? I'll grant you that the "rack, shake the crap out of it, and drink" method may produce less than desirable carbonation, (especially retention), but if you let it carb and age for at least a week or two, there's no discernable difference between natural carbonation and force carbonation. I just consider the time on the gas to be a cold conditioning period and adjust my expectations accordingly...

[matt]

Never really tried that because I only have one CO2 cylinder and I have to swap it between serving duties and kegging duties. I might give it a shot at some point.

[Richard English]

I agree with this article up to the bit that said, "...connect the gas cylinder..."


I would amend that to read, throw the gas cylinder into Lake Superior or other convenient piece of deep water. Fit a tap to the cask (and if it doesn't have a hole for a tap, then it's a rotten cask). Turn on tap and pour beer. Repeat until cask is empty.

That's the way English pubs do it.

[matt]

Richard,

I had already assumed you would say something to that effect eventually. There is no more need for you to go through the formality of actually posting. :D We will all dutifully assume that you are of the strong opinion that Real Ale is the only form beer. Look on the bright side, your fingers will have more time to bring beer to your mouth!

[Richard English]

I would hate to disappoint my readers!

However, I have found, both from looking at this site and from conversations with others, that very few Americans are aware that there is a difference between draught (draft) beer and tap beer, or between a cask and a keg.

Fewer still know what the difference is!

What I find so strange is that so many home-brewers over there seem go through the complex and expensive business of turning their Real Ale into something that is just that little bit closer to chemical fizz, when for far less effort they could drink it naturally (and probably enjoy it more).

[matt]

The problem is that we don't have a good supply of casks here. I have two pin casks that took me about three months to track down and buy.

If you can get casks, then you have to worry about maintaining a supply of spiles and such.

Rest assured, the vast majority of American homebrewers do brew Real Ale because bottle conditioning is still the most popular packaging option for homebrew.

Mostly we use reconditioned soda kegs for draught beer. The seal on soda kegs has to be made with a head pressure of CO2 to seal it up, otherwise the vessel won't retain any carbonation. So you have to have the CO2 around anyhow, even if you use a natural priming process. These soda kegs also use draw tubes to draw from the bottom like a regular keg, so we don't have the option of gravity dispensing with them. Unless you have a beer engine, (which are also hard to come by) that means that the actual dispensing needs to be done via CO2 as well.

Some of the more interesting draught Real Ale options for American homebrewers are Party Pigs and pastry kegs.

The Party Pig is a rather fascinating device. Rather than explain it, here's the link for the company. http://www.partypig.com/overview.html
This is my current favorite method for conditioning and dispensing beer, though I do sometimes miss the effect of the sparkler on my beer engine. I'm not sure what CAMRA would think of the party pig, but as a cask beer lover, I certainly think the Party Pig dispenses beer every bit as good as a cask, without the worries of spoilage.

Pastry kegs are also interesting. These are 5 liter containers that are generally sold comercially for German lagers. They can be reused essentially as casks. There is a bung at the top which a spile can be affixed to and then through the use of the PhilTap from Listerman manufacturing, you can connect to a beer engine. The spoilage worries are minimal because the vessel only holds 5L.

Refrigeration is also an issue, I have a fridge that will hold 55 F, but a pin cask with a tap inserted won't fit in it, all the other vessels will.

Its a problem I experiment with a lot because I want draught Real Ale dispensed at 55F degrees from my beer engine. I'm on a mission to find the easiest way to do that which doesn't require me to worry about beer oxidation (breathers are even harder to find than casks and spiles.) and supply issues.

Sometimes Americans also have a tendency to experiment for experimentations sake. Even if we don't think the results will be as good, or even if it winds up ruining the batch of beer, its fun to learn from the process.

I would like to put your mind at ease at least a little as far as american brewers and drinkers are concerned. Cask Ale is catching on over here in a big way. I'm constantly getting people to try cask ale at my local brewpub, and demand for the product increases through word of mouth advertising. I know of 12 restraunts/bars in the DC are that serve cask beer right now, compared with maybe three a year ago. I dare say CAMRA would be proud. There's still a ton of education to be done though and I certainly appreciate that you're one more person spreading the word to american drinkers, I can't do it all by myself!

Cheers!

[Richard English]

The Party Pig seems a good idea but, again, I wonder whether it's a technological solution looking for a problem!

I accept and understand what you say about casks and spiles; I use a Boots pressure vessel for my own brewing which works just like a cask. Rather than a spile it has a pressure release valve which allows just the right degree of natural carbonation. It does have a tapping to which a gas cylinder can be connected but I have never found it necessary.

If enough beer is drawn off at any one time to allow the gas pressure to reduce to zero, thus halting the flow, then I just release the valve, allowing air into the cask. As there is a blanket of carbon dioxide on the top of the beer (it being so much denser than air) the air doesn't get to touch the beer and thus can't spoil it. The worries that many have about oxidation are actually false; the air won't touch the beer in the conditions that prevail in a properly set-up cask.

Of course, the beer in the cask, being live, will continue to work until it has used up all its sugar and will then stop. At that time the carbon dioxide layer will gradually disappear and then, when the beer and air get together, the process of acetification will start and the beer will turn to vinegar.

An externally applied blanket will help to slow this process, of course. However, to my mind it's better to brew in quantities comensurate with your own drinking speed than to try artificially to extend the life of your beer.

[matt]

I'd love to hear more about this Boots pressure vessel. What is it exactly? Do they have a website through which I can get my hands on one? I've always thought that we've been missing a sufficiently clever serving tank, this thing sounds like it might do the trick for me. I had always assumed Brit homebrewers used pin casks.

I would caution you that when you create a nearly negative pressure in the vessel, and then open a release valve to let in air, the air will literally be sucked in. Gasses behave in a substantially similar manner to liquids. To get an idea of the path the air takes when let into the vessel, take any liquid in a glass and pour in another liquid. (Tea and Cream, water and oil, sprite and coke) The liquid being poured in heads stright for the bottom of the vessel. Eventually the CO2 will settle back to the bottom, but the beer does get exposed to air. It sounds like you're drinking the beer fast enough so that this doesn't happen so it really doesn't matter.

There are actually some problems to which the party pig is ideally suited. Namely any beer that is to be more carbonated than can be accomodated with a non-sealed and non-pressurized vessel. I especially like Vienna Lagers from my party pig. It has other advantages too, beer in it will last literally for months and not experience a negative flavor change and they are easy to transport and refrigerate in a normal refrigerator.

I probably do worry too much about oxidation, I've never actually managed to oxidize a beer, but I spend an enourmous amount of time worrying about doing so. I actually like malt vinegar, so I'm not sure what the problem is. :-)

Anyhow, you've really got my curiosity piqued about this pressure vessel. I'm very interested to hear about it.

Slainte!