Carbonation question pt.2

[MeridianFC]

This is really pt.1 but the other thread took a turn off of the main thoroughfare, so I thought I'd start this thread to solicit some more information on the original question (when did forced pressurizing aka artificial carbonation first appear) and introduce some new information.

In some reading I was doing I came across a diagram of a "typical American brewery" from 1900-1906 period. In the drawing the bottling line of the brewery is on the lowest floor and the bottling line is labeled like this:

compressor - pump - carbonator - pump - cooler - filter - racker

The carbonator is an odd old fashioned gas pump looking device. Interesting that the filter comes after the carbonator. So this is much early than my supposition that it was post war era.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
(when did forced pressurizing aka artificial carbonation first appear)

If by "forced pressurization" you mean forced CO2 to dispense beer, you can't define that as synonymous with "artificial carbonation." While the CO2 used for dispensing a beer from a keg (read, the US definition) can be absorbed by the beer over time, it's not the main source for carbonation in the beer.

Artificially carbonating a beer by infusing it with CO2 is a much more direct process than merely attaching the pressure tapper. A home-brew friend that grew impatient with waiting for natural carbonation learned how to use his dispensing CO2 to infuse carbo into his beer. By pumping the CO2 into a full Cornelious Keg, then agitating the beer (literally rocking it back-and-forth), the beer would absorb the CO2 - of course, this took nearly as much patience as waiting for natural carbonation because he needed to follow the procedure about 5 times over a day in order to get a good carbonation.

While his beer didn't taste bad, it never seemed to be as rich as a naturally carbonated beer.

In some reading I was doing I came across a diagram of a "typical American brewery" from 1900-1906 period. In the drawing the bottling line of the brewery is on the lowest floor and the bottling line is labeled like this:

compressor - pump - carbonator - pump - cooler - filter - racker

The carbonator is an odd old fashioned gas pump looking device.

I have the same diagram in a 1986 book titled, Beers of North America by Bill Yenne. A great book for names, locations, old photos, and dates, but very little history on the process of brewing. "Old fashioned" is the perfect description of the "carbonator" in that illustration, and I've never seen or heard of any such device at a U.S. microbrewery or brew-pub, as natural carbonation is the preferred process.

S.

[brewmonkey]

I do know of a brewery in my area that goes from brite tank to centrifuge to filter to carbonation to package.

Even during the process of natural carbonation you would want to get as much of the yeast and other solids out of suspension before carbonation, even if it is a bottle conditioned beer. They have the ability to calculate and add precise measurements of gyle back to the beer for carbonation and while it will add some turbidity to the beer, it will certainly be much clearer then before.

[steveh]

A 1986 book titled, Beers of North America by Bill Yenne.

In this same book, there is an interesting outline of the brewing process at the Anchor Brewery. At the fermentation step it reports:

"The initial fermentation process yields a 'big tub of flat beer,' which is placed into large closed stainless steel tanks where the beer is 'krausened,' or naturally carbonated. A few days after it is placed in the tanks, fresh still-fermenting beer is added to the original batch. For the next several weeks the fermentation continues in an environment of gradually increasing pressure as the yeast continues to produce carbon dioxide.

"The krausening of the beer produces a finer bubble and better bonding between beer and CO2, which gives Anchor Steam Beer its characteristic rich creaminess and longer-lasting head."

This is the alternative method to English style cask-conditioning to finish a beer that I was explaining in the first thread. Worth noting is that before the advent stainless steel, huge wooden barrels were used as the krausening tanks, and as the lagering vessels.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
I do know of a brewery in my area that goes from brite tank to centrifuge to filter to carbonation to package.

Using an artificial infusion of CO2 for carbonation? How does that beer taste, and do you recommend it to friends? Please tell me it's not Boulevard.

Even during the process of natural carbonation you would want to get as much of the yeast and other solids out of suspension before carbonation, even if it is a bottle conditioned beer. They have the ability to calculate and add precise measurements of gyle back to the beer for carbonation and while it will add some turbidity to the beer, it will certainly be much clearer then before.

Thus some of the conical tanks for drawing off the sediment, as well as filtering that is still a common practice - but not to the point of filtering out all flavor.

S.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by steveh
If by "forced pressurization" you mean forced CO2 to dispense beer, you can't define that as synonymous with "artificial carbonation." While the CO2 used for dispensing a beer from a keg (read, the US definition) can be absorbed by the beer over time, it's not the main source for carbonation in the beer.


I think I have not been explaining myself clearly (nothing unusual there). I'm looking for information on the histroy of carbonation of the actual beer I'm not really concerned, for this purposes of this inquiry, with dispensing. At some point in history all breweries naturally carbonated their beer by some stripe of secondary fermentation; krausening or conditioning in the cask or bottle. Then at some as yet undetermined point the technology came into existence (or already existed by was applied to the brewing process) that allowed brewers to take the flat beer that had finished primary fermentation and force C02 under great pressure into the beer where, in it's container (tank, keg, bottle, etc) it was forced into solution and the beverage became carbonated. I believe this is called "artificial carbonation" and I also believe that this is by far the most common method of carbonating beer nowadays. Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

Carbonation has a huge, though often overlooked, impact on flavor, or maybe more correctly how flavor plays out on the tounge. The result of "artificial" v. "natural" carbonation is raging in the other thread, I'm very interested in when the shift from one method to the other took place, accepting that some breweries still do not use "artificial" at all.

K.

As a side note I just finished the Bill Yenne "American Brewery" book, which I'll discuss elesewhere, but man did I notice a lot of errors in it, both factual and things that escaped the proofreader, if he indeed employed one.

[Richard English]

Prior to the invention of artificial carbonation the only way of carbonating any drink was to ferment it or to obtain it from a naturally carbonated supply (like Evian or Perrier).

The main problem with artificial carbonation is that carbon dioxide is only slightly soluble at atmospheric pressure and so bubbling the gas through water will not work. It has to be forced in under pressure to dissolve and then stored under pressure. Once the pressure is released then it bubbles out giving rise to the effervence we all recognise.

The first man to make an artificially carbonated drink was that great experimenter with gases - Dr. Joseph Priestly, who created the first drinkable man-made glass of soda water in 1767 in Leeds.

The first soda factories in the USA started in Philadelphia in the 1830s and in 1886. John Pemberton, an Atlanta, Georgia pharmacist, developed Coca Cola (yuk!).

The first record I can find of pasteurisation of US beer was in 1904 and it would seem probable that artificial carbonation took place at the same time.

[brewmonkey]

Using an artificial infusion of CO2 for carbonation? How does that beer taste, and do you recommend it to friends? Please tell me it's not Boulevard.

All Boulevard beers are bottle conditioned.

The brewery I used as an example is also bottle conditioning the beers. Even after filtration it is possible to do so. Filtration occurs not with a polish filter but rather a loose one at 2.5 microns+/- to allow only large particles to filter out. They then add whatever the brewer determines is the proper amount of slurry/fermentable to achieve the desired volumes of CO2.

Loose filtration ensures that while the beer will not be crystal clear, you won't end up with a pale ale that looks like a hefe.

[steveh]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
All Boulevard beers are bottle conditioned.

Whew, for a minute there, I thought maybe they'd gone artificial on us.


The brewery I used as an example is also bottle conditioning the beers.

Okay, I misunderstood in thinking that they were artificially carbonating by infusing CO2 into their beer.

S.

[MeridianFC]

I just got my copy of "The Perfect Pint" by Ray Daniels wherein it contained the bit I was looking for regarding CO2 levels:

Measured as volumes of C02 dissolved in one volume of beer, we are accustomed to seeing values of 2.25 to 2.75 in the US. As a result of cask conditioning, the typical bitter will have a value of just 0.75-1.00.

[Brownbeard]

John Pemberton, an Atlanta, Georgia pharmacist, developed Coca Cola (yuk!).

Now I see, Richard is a heretic. Coca-Cola is the nectar of the gods.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
I just got my copy of "The Perfect Pint" by Ray Daniels wherein it contained the bit I was looking for regarding CO2 levels:

"Measured as volumes of C02 dissolved in one volume of beer, we are accustomed to seeing values of 2.25 to 2.75 in the US. As a result of cask conditioning, the typical bitter will have a value of just 0.75-1.00."

What U.S. beers is he talking about, macro swill or micro? Of course, all CO2 as carbonation is dissolved in beer, be it natural or artificial.

I wonder what the values would be in a good, naturaly carbonated German Pils, does he say?

S.

[Richard English]

Quote "...Now I see, Richard is a heretic. Coca-Cola is the nectar of the gods...."

Are we talking about the same drink here? I sampled (once - and that was enough) a brown, fizzy, sickly, cloying liquid that made my teeth furry and quenched my thirst nearly as well as a lump of sugar. That's the same liquid that I used, some time later, to clean the tarnish off an old coin (it did a very good job).

Apologies if the drink you are speaking of is not the same as the one I sampled - but mine certainly came from a can named Coca Cola.

[Brownbeard]

I was making jokes. I am a die hard coca cola fan. I have one every day.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by steveh
What U.S. beers is he talking about, macro swill or micro? Of course, all CO2 as carbonation is dissolved in beer, be it natural or artificial.

I wonder what the values would be in a good, naturaly carbonated German Pils, does he say?

S.

No speicific of even generic range of beer was identified. I'd imagine the range listed would cover macro as well as micro. I'll E-mail him and find out.

Is there anyone to actually determine the amount of CO2 actually in solution in the beer you've been served. I just always eyeball it and and say "a lot" or "not much" based on sight and taste.

When it comes to soft drinks, make mine a Boylan's Sugar Cane Cola, Blenheim's Ginger Ale (hot), or Dominion Root Beer.

[danno]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
Is there anyone to actually determine the amount of CO2 actually in solution in the beer you've been served. I just always eyeball it and and say "a lot" or "not much" based on sight and taste. if you know temperature and pressure, you can calculate volume. I posted a chart I borrowed in this thread (http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2402).

I think Mr. Daniels is using the high end to make his point.

Seriously though, can someone explain to me how you can get 0.75 volumes of co2? maybe my brain is turning to mush (it's been a long, stressful week), but I picture 1 volume of co2 as what I have in a carboy, after my beer is fully fermented. it's saturated with co2, but at atmospheric pressure. am I wrong here?

[brewmonkey]

The chart is a nice thing but not at all accurate without a Zahm & Nagle volumeter totest it. For bottles they have one that will pierce the cap and for brite tanks they make one that will attach to the Zwickle valve.