TAD N2O question

[PCaravan]

I did not buy the Tap-a-Draft for this purpose but it would be nice if the Nitrous Oxide (N2O) worked as advertised. I would like to know if anyone here has tried them and what the results were.

I participated in a thread at the Northern Brewer forum asking the same question. I posted there first because they already had a decent sized thread about why they won't work but I recently came accross something that makes it seem like it should work. I've got the same user name overthere you can see what I posted if you want too.

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?t=7039

The real question I have though is, have any of you tried those N2O cartriges and what were your results?

Thanks

[Professor Frink]

My 2nd keg with TAD was an Irish stout that I used a nitrous cartridge with. It was a poor subsitute for Guinness on tap at best. I Think the pressure from these cartridges are much lower than the CO2, and this left the keg with very low carbonation overall, and was not even close to the creamy texture. I don't think nitrous oxide from those cartridges really dissolves well into beverages, I've had much better results with just 2 CO2 cartridges. To say you will get a creamy draft with these just isn't true. In my opinion, save your money, and just use CO2. Granted this was my 2nd TAD keg, and I've learned a little more since then like, waiting a few hours after tapping before drawing a beer for better carbonation.

[danno]

I don't have a TAD, so I can't comment about it's use. But, the way you get a creamy head is with a stout tap, not simply the use of nitrogen. First, Professor Frink is right, nitrogen does not readily dissolve into beer, so you're not going to get good carbonation simply using nitrogen.

Note, you don't want nitrous oxide, that not what is used for dispensing beer. You want "beer gas", which is a mixture of nitrogen and CO2, not Nitrous Oxide. Two completely different things.

Second note, the restrictor disk inside a stout tap is what gives your traditional stout its creamy head. When you near the end of the pour, the tap is pushed back (past the shutoff point), your beer goes through the restrictor disk, forcing out most of the carbonation and creating the creamy head.

[PCaravan]

The part your telling me about the N2O being the wrong stuff is the reason I'd like to know about others who have used it on the TAD.

The part about the restrictor disk in the tap is a little harder to take though since you get the same results with a Guinness Draft can that has the little nitrogen thing in the bottom of the can... not tap/restritor disk there.

If you've never had what I'm refering to go here for a complete description.

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/barron/guinness_can.html

I didn't think it would actually be like draft but I ordered Guinness at a restaurant thinking I was getting that bottled Export Stout but they brought the can right to the table opened it and poured it right there in front of me... beautiful cascading creamy head and all.

Based on the link's description of how it works it looks like you need nitrogen and some way to agitate the beer when it's being poured. It seems to me the agitation part would be easy. The N2O part in place of Nitrogen is what I'm not really ready to believe.

That being said, I this responce from a supplier when I asked if his cartriges were really nitrogen (as he had listed) or it was really N2O as I suspected:

"I looked into this issue awhile back. I talked to Leland, the manufacturer of the bulbs. They said that the Nitrous bulbs would work for this purpose. They said the oxygen would dissipate and there would be Nitrogen left. They told me that no one can make a little Nitrogen bulb. It has something to do with pure Nitrogen's boiling temperature. We have had many customers purchase the bulbs for their Tap-a-Draft system and we have had no complaints. The Nitrous bulbs are recommended by the Tap-a-Draft company as well."

He later sent another email:

"Apparently the boiling point of Nitrogen is:
Boiling point: -320.4ºF (-195.8ºC) at 1 ATM
I do believe that they have to use liquid to fill the little bulbs.
Correct me if I am wrong; wouldn't the liquid have to be colder than -320.4 degrees to be a liquid if the boiling point is -320.4?

If it boils at that cold of a temp, image what it would do at room temperature. I talked to the Leland people a couple of years ago but I think this is why they can't make a little bulb.

The nitrogen tanks you see at room temperature use gas and not liquid. I think it is a manufacturing little bulbs issue."

So I'm just curious as to what others have found through actual use at this point. I don't have a stout to try it with myself and wont for a while but if no one else has really tried the N2O cartriges and posted back here about them by then I'll try them... there not THAT much more than the CO2 cartriges.

[PCaravan]

By the way I forgot to thank Professor Fink. That what I'm looking for here but I would like to here from more people and in particular someone who has tried it several times.

Thanks

[danno]

Originally posted by PCaravan
They said the oxygen would dissipate and there would be Nitrogen left.
um, oxygen in your beer is bad. this would seem to me to be reason enough to stop this idea right here....

Originally posted by PCaravan
Correct me if I am wrong; wouldn't the liquid have to be colder than -320.4 degrees to be a liquid if the boiling point is -320.4?
this is where the pressure comes into play. my co2 tank is around 800psi at room temperature to remain liquid. I can't remember my high school physics, but there's a relationship between temperature and pressure for boiling and freezing points...

[PCaravan]

Once again, hereing from one who hasn't tried it.

Oxygen in beer is bad because it oxidizes beer. That effect becomes noticible over time but not immidiate as I understand it. We're talking about a minikeg system that would not last long once exposed. I doubt the short amount of time 6L of beer would be exposed would show up in a stout (darker beers are known to stand up better against oxydation). That being said, I'm not entirely convinced of this part either. That's why I'm looking for people who have used them before on their TAD.

As far as the relationship with pressure and tempurature stuff goes, it doesn't really apply hear since pure nitrogen bulbs are not available apparently not going to be available.


Again, looking for someone who has experience using N2O on TAD.

[fuji6100]

I've used nitrogen (typically sold as whip-cream dipsensing refills) cartridges in my TAD with good success. YOu aren't going to get that ULTRA silky head like guiniess hass, because they have a patented way of adgitating the beer with the widget inside, and the guiness taps have a special head that does the same.

What I do with mine, is this. I carbinate naturally with priming sugar, then when I'm ready to pour, I put one (previously saved) empty cartridge in one side (just to hold the washer secure and shut) and one c02 on the other. I let that carbinate and draw a beer or two off of it and just drink those as is. Then, I put take out the blank and put the nitrogen cart. on and let it sit overnight.

Now you have a mix of co2 and nitrogen inside (it isn't regulated very well in a consitant ratio, but it is better than nothing)

Then, pour your beer normally from the TAD until it is half full. Then, hold the TAD about halfway to 3/4 closed, so it shoots a very thin, very forceful stream of beer right down in the center of your mug/glass. This should give you a fluffy creamy head that is better than what you would get with C02 by itself, but not the same as guiness.

Hope that helps.

[PCaravan]

THANK YOU fugi6100, THANK YOU Professor Frink.

Those are the kind of posts I was looking for.

fugi,

Your post kind of supports my suspition that some kind of agitation is necessary (it doesn't have to be a special guiness tap to do it) to get the job done. Closing the tap part way is kind of what I had in mind to try if I got that far without any other input.

My point in starting the this thread was just to see if there was a difference and if there was any improvement with the use of N2O. Everywhere I looked I usually found people who never bothered trying saying it would never work or people who didn't keep trying. Sorry Professor Frink if that's you but I did find your post useful... definitely more so that danno's continued interference with this discussion. With your's and fugi's comments I'm getting a better idea hear. So will others who research the N2O issue.

Please, any others... comment on YOUR EXPERIENCE.

P.S. fuji6100, do you notice any oxydation when using the N2O cartriges? I'm sorry, I had to ask since this has already been mentioned in this thread.

[Moondoggy]

Although this does not directly relate to the specific question in this thread and I hope that I am not rebuked

But, how does the TAD system work in general. I was considering purchasing one but hesitated thinking I would get poor performance from something so inexpensive.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by PCaravan
Once again, hereing from one who hasn't tried it.



I understand that you are looking for a specific answer from a certain group. However, answers outside that realm certainly do not deserve to be answered with the tone that you did. This is a friendly group where all can contribute wether you like it or not. If you do not like the answer they give, keep on reading but no need to be an ass about it.

[PCaravan]

Sorry to if the tone I used seemed inapropriate. I was getting a little frusterated that this thread seemed to be heading down the same road I've seen other threads that started with a similar question about the TAD. Those threads seem to become a party for those who want to bash anything that is not the perfect guinness/tap/nitro settup. I had hoped to avoid this by asking for the results of those who have actually tried it. In my first post following danno, you'll see there is no negative tone. I figured someone like him would chime in with the same arguments I've seen before so I just explained why I was keeping an open mind and showed what someone else was giving as the other side of the argument. In danno's next post is where I picked up the first negative tone and is why I replied with such. Again, I'm sorry if this was inapropriate and I'm sorry to danno if I infered anything incorrectly.

By the way, I don't mind questions outside the realm of this thread but I really do want to avoid conclusions drawn from someone who hasn't tried it. Those conclusions have been covered in other threads and are particularly well covered in the link I provided in my first post.

Moondoggy,

I'm not sure what you mean by poor performonce. I was kind of hesitant to purchase one myself because it looked to cheap to work more than once or twice. However, I don't like bottleing so much and going from 5 gallon batches (extract) to 10 gallon batches (all-grain... whoo hoo) so I had to contain my beer differently. I just couldn't take the idea of bottling 10 gallons. That left me with these options: korney (no space) or a party pig/mini keg/tap-a-draft. I researched several forums and decided the TAD had the best overall reviews. Do a search here in this forum for Tap-a-Draft as this forum seems to have the most experience with it.

[brewmonkey]

No problem as long as all understand that any question asked is bound to recieve posts about everything but the subject or a re-hash of a previous thread.

My take on the TAD. We looked at them for the pub several years ago as well as the Party Pig's for a way to get beer out to the patrons in smaller then 1/6bbl's but bigger then a growler. After recieving several of each to experiment with we found that they both had issues and neither was superior to the other. The pig was a pain due to the bladder and was a nightmare in my eyes to maintain. The TAD was easier to maintain but we had trouble with dispensing the beer the way we wanted, in particular any beer that we wanted to push with mixed gas (we do several other then the stouts that way). We would either lose carbonation over the duration of an expected consumption cycle or we could not get the beer to pour correctly through the period. We had some success with both, but overall we were not satisfied that they would consistantly perform to the advertised specs.

[PCaravan]

Yeah, I would think consistency would be a problem for your situation as quality control (by that I mean having the same actions producing the same results) is more of an issue for you. If there is an improvement of anykind using the N2O I would expect it would take a little practice. Like fugi's post, I would not want to have to tell a customer to do all that.

By the way, you say it wouldn't hold carbonation through the duration of an expected consumption cycle. Do you remember how long you used as a consumption cycle.

Thanks

[brewmonkey]

We experimented with it for 2 and then 3 weeks. 3 weeks is where we started having problems.

[Professor Frink]

Originally posted by Moondoggy
Although this does not directly relate to the specific question in this thread and I hope that I am not rebuked

But, how does the TAD system work in general. I was considering purchasing one but hesitated thinking I would get poor performance from something so inexpensive.

I am very happy with my TAD, overall. It took a few tries before I was getting a little more consistant with it, but for the cost, it is well worth it for the time it saves bottling. Once you get a feel for when to reload with CO2 cartridges and have patience after tapping to let it force carbonate enough before drawing a beer and releasing the pressure, it has performed beautifully.
Eventually I see myself getting a kegerator, but until finances permit, this is very good intermediate solution.

[PCaravan]

Thanks, yeah, I don't drink them quite that quickly... unless I have help which is a little rare on the darker stuff. I would've hoped they lasted longer than that.

[fuji6100]

I don't think the comments were made that the TAD actually BREAKS after 3 weeks, but that the desired results began to wane after about 3 weeks. I've had been in my TAD as long as 5 weeks with no noticable off flavors (from the nitrogen cartridges) but I do notice that once the PET bottle is down to the last 1/4, you get a really slow pour and you can either deal with that, or eat up an extra cartridge to get the last little bit out.

I don't have any experience with leaving the beer in the TAD over 5 weeks, but I've had mine for about 6 months and haven't it break, fail, or leak.

The PET bottles do recommed being replaced after 6-8 uses (they accumulate scratches on the outside of the bottle) which is pretty cheap. Washers can be replace for a few $$ per set (I washed one down the sink once) if it ever does start leaking co2.

[PCaravan]

Well I didn't think he meant that it broke either. And if it did I've read in various places that Sturman has great product support for the TAD.

What I thought he meant was that it lost carbonation (not dispensing pressure). Loosing carbonation seems like a real problem to me. But if we're talking about dispensing pressure then, oh yeah, I would have expected that. You can't expect a low price minikeg that works of seltzer bottle chargers and whipping cream chargers to be perfect! I think I would just deal with it as long as it WAS still dispensing to some degree.

These bottles I have would have to get some pretty serious scratches as they seem pretty sturdy to me. We'll see how I feel on that one though when I get closer to the 6-8 uses.

Just out of curiousity, what washers came off. The directions I have about cleaning the system just say to hold the assembly under the tap and let hot water run through the tubing. After doing that I could find anything else that looked like it needed cleaning as it didn't look like anything else had be exposed to beer, though I really didn't try to dissasemble the thing.

[Moondoggy]

Am I to understand that:

Once I bottle into the TAD bottles I can let them bottle condition as normal.

Then I can hook one up to the tap assembly, charge the system and have it sit for over a month fully pressurized awaiting me to pour one with no off flavors?

If this is the case why the heck am I bottling? I am purchasing one!

[PCaravan]

Haven't had mine long enough to tell for myself but one of the main reasons I ended up with the TAD was that if the cartridges ran out before you were done (which is more likely to happen if you don't drink it quickly) you could put another one in. I know you couldn't do this with the party pig because the pouches went INSIDE the bottle/assembly or whatever it was. I don't remember for sure but I think the metal minikegs had a problem with this as well. As far as off flavors go, I really can't see how TAD would contribute to off flavors.

[Moondoggy]

The off flavors comment was coined toward the months time sitting in the bottle once tapped.

It does make sense that it could stay fresh since as long as the system is constantly pressurized.

[PCaravan]

Oh yeah, it should be able to stay under constant pressure. If it the dispensing pressure runs out of the cartridges, you can replace them mid stream (our should I say mid minikeg/bottle?).

If you got a TAD I'm sure you'd like it. In the little experience I have with it I can tell you it's not perfect but it works fine. One note about perfection though, a real kegging system isn't perfect either as I saw beer go everywhere at a bar tonight when the bartender unwitingly drew the last bit of beer from the keg. At least with the TAD you can see when your about to hit the end!

[fuji6100]

actually, my "off flavor" comment was referring to the supposed oxygen release from the n20 cartridges. Using just the c02 by itself, you should be able to keep it in there far far longer before you run into any problems.

[PCaravan]

fugi,

yes thanks for that... I did ask for it. I just didn't connect Moondoggy's question to it. lol

I guess I poisoned my brains with too many homebrews!:(