General Attitudes towards beer

[bsardin]

I don't know if this has happened to many of you but when I have tried introduce co-workers to new beers there general reaction is "This is real good but I wouldn't drink it because it is too heavy. I can only drink 1 or 2 and I want to be able to drink as many beers as possible when I drink."

I really think it is attitudes like this that hurts the image of beer and beer drinker. It makes us all look like a bunch of drunks. I would personally rather have 1 really good beer that fills me up then a case of "chemical fizz" To me beer is a means to enrich life not just a means to aquiring a buzz.

Sorry just had to rant a little.

[davesarman]

I have had similar experiences, so I can relate to what you are saying. That can get discouraging, believe me. But every now and then, a ray of light shines through. I have managed to convince 4 of my coworkers (3 of which fall into the category which you describe) to go on a pub crawl next month with me that is sponsored by the association of Minneapolis area brewpubs! For $50 you get transportation in between each pub, a souvenier glass, t-shirt and a free pint at each of the seven pubs. A wonderful time, and a great way to introduce some willing novices to some great beer! So hang in there! It may be a long road, but every now and then, some real successes will come your way!

[batkins]

Damn, I'll get my cash ready! That sounds like fun, we need that here in Portland!

[spankymac]

That's a really great idea...I wish there were that many brewpubs in here in Asheville, NC. There are two that I know of; on the other hand, there's no reason other pubs couldn't be included even though they don't roll their own, so to speak. This is worth pondering.

[Richard English]

I posted a reply to this question - and it appeared on the board as I posted it, without any problem. However, now it's gone, leaving no trace of its existence.

Now, I have had this happen to a few previous posts and put it down to a glitch. However, I do recall that every time it's happened it's when I have been less than complimentary about one of the major brewers.

My question is, has the moderator been deleting my posts for fear of offending the likes of A-B (whose advertising does, of course, help support the board.

And my second question therefore is, would it not have been sensible (and mannerly) to have contacted me to say what was going on? Deletion of a post without so much as a "this is what's happened" note is, I suggest rather rude.

I spend a good deal of time and effort in trying to contribute to this board in the cause of good beer. I am not a troll; I do not post offensive and insulting rubbish just to see my eccentric opinions in print. My posts are researched, considered and thoughtful.

However, if the the owners do not appreciate what I do, then I'll go somewhere else.

[steveh]

Originally posted by bsardin
I don't know if this has happened to many of you but when I have tried introduce co-workers to new beers there general reaction is "This is real good but I wouldn't drink it because it is too heavy. I can only drink 1 or 2 and I want to be able to drink as many beers as possible when I drink."


I pride myself on having "converted" a few Miller Lite drinkers in my workplace over to - Guinness! Yep, Guinness draft in the cans. They didn't realize what they were missing in flavor and were "afraid of the dark." When I explained that Guinness draft wasn't motor-oil thick and had nearly the same calorie count as ML, they couldn't believe it. Now they're even trying other good beers and one is even home-brewing.

Evangelist? No, I just hate watching people waste their time on swill. Life's too short to drink bad beer!

S.

[bsardin]

Richard let us know if you get a response as to why your posts are being deleted. I look forward to reading your posts and hate that I never got to read your reply to my question.

[admin]

Richard, you wrote:

My question is, has the moderator been deleting my posts for fear of offending the likes of A-B (whose advertising does, of course, help support the board.

The answer is no.

I'm bumfuzzled as to what might have happened. I have looked in our database of posts and there are no apparent "holes" - such as would have been left by a deletion.

Is there a chance you could have been thinking about a post to another thread, perhaps this one (http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?threadid=166) ?

Prosit,
Stan

[Richard English]

Thank you.

It wasn't the post you directed me to, it was another about attitudes and in it I made remarks about the supposed ABV of Budweiser (5.0%) and its taste and body as compared with weaker beers such as Hog's Back T.E.A. (4.2%).

Sadly I didn't keep a copy but I'll try to remember what I said and re-post.

I can say, without doubt, it did seem to appear!

[Richard English]

Having been assured that there was no problem about my post and its disappearance was just one of those electronic mysteries for which we must, I suppose, thank Bill Gates, I will try again to suggest why the attitudes you cite are held.

I suggest that there are two factors in play here.

Firstly the belief by those who have tried only Budwesier and its clones that flavour must equal strength and thus to drink one or two UK ales will be equivalent to drinking several Budweisers. This can easily be dealt with by pointing out the ABV figure (5%) on the Budwesier bottle. Unless A-B are being economomical with the truth, then their beer is actually stronger than many UK ales. T.E.A., for example, is only 4.3% ABV. That T.E.A. tastes like beer whereas Budweiser tastes of nothing at all, has nothing to do with the strength.

Fizz-beer drinkers also believe that the feelings of bloatedness they get are caused by the strength of the beer and that the thumping head and bilous stomach that they experience the next morning is also caused by the beer's strength. It is not. These effects are caused by all the chemical rubbish in fizz-beers, not the alcohol.

Secondly the belief that Real Ales are "heavy" and that they can't therefore be drunk in the same quantities as "light" beers. Again wrong. As we who know about good beers can vouchsafe, a good beer will slip down almost unnoticed and settle happily into the stomach - there to allow its alcohol to migrate gently into the bloodstream to induce that slightly soporific and euphoric state that is the result of having "had a few".

Fizz-beers, on the other hand, have to be forced down against the carbonic acid bite on the roof of the mouth and the near-freezing temperatures that do no good at all to the gullet. Then, when they arrive in the stomach, they continue to discharge their cargo of dissolved carbon dioxide, causing a bloated and uncomfortable feeling. The alcohol does, of course, get into the bloodstream (often more rapidly since carbon dioxide assists its transfer) along with the alcohol all the preservatives and other rubbish. Nausea and actual vomiting are likely long before the drinker is intoxicated.

Tonight I shall be in the Garland in Redhill and I'll have five or six pints (Imperial Pints, that is) of Harvey's Mild. I will go home happy; I shall sleep well; I shall get up with a clear head ready for the day. I hate to think what I would feel like had I drunk six pints of Budweiser. Incidentally, The Garland is one of the only pubs I know where A-B Budweiser is not sold. If you ask for Budweiser you get the REAL Budweiser - brewed in the Czech Republic in accordance with the dictats of the Reinheitsgebot - Water, malt, yeast and hops only - no rice and no chemicals!

There is, of course, only one way to convince the non-believers and that is to get them to have a session on good beer. Possibly you could suggest an evening where each of you pay in turn for the whole evening's boozing - with the person paying choosing the evening's drink. When it's your turn you buy only Real Ale; when it's another's turn they can buy what they want (after all, you don't have to drink it!)

[steveh]

Richard - While I wholeheartedly agree that the chemicals allowed into beer by the US-FDA (I have an astonishing list provided by a great beer distributor) can promote a hearty hangover, with A-B Budweiser I've always blamed the rice. I don't know if I have an allergic reaction, but if I sip even the smallest amount of the swill, I'll develop a raging headache and queazy stomach.

The best experiment that I can use as example was while judging lagers at a home-brew competition. We sampled an A-B Budwesier clone - no, I don't know why the poor, misguided soul wanted to duplicate the liquid - but many home-brewers try to hone their skills by duplication. I took, literally, 3 sips of this brew and was useless for the rest of the competition. I've had the same reaction when Bud was the only beer available in an establishment. I'm happy to say that I haven't let an A-B product pass over my lips in about 10 years - mostly due to this reaction, and I don't patronize taverns that carry A-B exclusively.

Back on the subject of introducing good beers to otherwise ignorantly bliss swill drinkers - last summer I met some friends for a few in celebration of one's impending marriage (it really wasn't a bachelor party, per se - honest). Most were guzzling the (unfortunately) ubiquitous Miller Lite when I ordered a pint (sorry Richard, not imperial - wish it had been!) of Bell's Oberon. The swillers were intrigued by the light color - it was a "boutique" beer that wasn't immediately frightening to them. Well, they all tried one and I think I may have converted more diciples in the crusade for good beer!

Cheers,
Steve

[rabidbeerjunkie]

That's what it's all about. We may not win the beer war, but there are surely battles along the way where victory over swill will be proclaimed. My wife and I have been hosting beer tasting parties(pairing styles with food) in our home, annually for 10 years. Our first party had only 8 guests. In Oct. 2002, we had 43. I think we're going to start doing it 2 or 3 times a year to incorporate more seasonal varieties. Keep fighting the good fight.
Prost!
Todd

[beerinator]

I don't really think we need to win the war.

I would consider myself a winner right now, even if I never convinced someone to switch from Macrobrew. People are always going to eat at McDonald's, and there will always be Bud drinkers.

What we need to focus on, as beer lovers, is helping those that are interested in trying new styles. Not necessarily converting Bud drinkers. Trying to convert them, is like trying to argue religion with a stranger...

[b3s]

passive conversion invite people over, offer them a beer, give them one of my micro/craft/import brews.

aggressive conversion when going out to a bar with people, ask what they got on tap. pronounce all macros as crap and recommend some brew pub in the area.

in between when going to a bar with friends, ask the barkeep what's on tap. after they get done telling you all of the a-b/miller/coors products (depending on region) and stop, ask them what beers they have on tap, then order a martini.

i like to mix and match the three :)

[Richard English]

In one way I agree with you. Why should we worry about converting others just so long as we get what we want.

Sadly, that's not the way it works. It was the apathy of Real Ale drinkers that allowed the chemical fizz manufacturers to foist their rubbish onto the market and then, because of the massive profits the rubbish makes, were able to buy up the Real Ale breweries, one by one, and then just close them down. Once the competition has been elimininated then they could do what they liked - and did.

It's due almost entirely to the efforts of CAMRA that this didn't happen in the UK and their example has been followed now by many other countries.

But don't be complacent; A-B is a massive, massive organisation with huge budgets and promotional strength. Given far less than half a chance it would eliminate its competition and submerge the world in an ocean of tasteless chemical fizz.

The war is not yet won and we must continue to fight it!

Every subscriber to this board could start by joining CAMRA!

[beerinator]

The smaller breweries (smaller than the big three) aren't going anywhere, and I am supporting them. Some of them may sell out, but those that really care about their beers will not.

I don't see that what I am saying or doing is complacent. But I also don't see why we need to worry about those who will probably never see the light(pun truly not intended). In a world with Arrogant Bastard, Old Rasputin and Immort Ale we should consider ourselves very lucky.

I have a pretty large circle of beer knurds that I call friends, but a few of my other acquaintances drink Macrobrew. They know of my affiliation to the craft beer 'team' and they surely know that I love to talk beer. But they also know that I respect their decision to drink what makes them happy. I would love for them to come over one day, and say, "Let's browse through your beer cellar." But I don't feel like we should force our opinions on people who are happy. We can drop hints, or ask if they would like to try something. But I feel that if they're enjoying what they're drinking, then it's not my problem.

[Richard English]

I think this list should be published here, in the public media, be listed on every label and piece of point-of sale material and given as hard copy to every person starting on a drinking career!

Maybe then the chemical-fizz drinkers will begin to realise what they're doing to their systems!

[CaptHook]

Richard, I second the motion. How many smokers were surprised
to learn of additives. Additives train your brain to respond. Did you ever see a smoker switch brands at will? No, they are locked into brand association. Beer drinkers are the same. I know people
that would rather fight than switch. Thats the power of advertising AND additives!

[steveh]

Originally posted by beerinator
But I don't feel like we should force our opinions on people who are happy. We can drop hints, or ask if they would like to try something. But I feel that if they're enjoying what they're drinking, then it's not my problem.

I don't necessarily force my opinion on those blinded by the lite (pun intended). People I work with and my friends know me as the "beer guy" because I always drink good beer, talk good beer, and brew good beer. Okay, 2 out of 3 ain't bad. ;)

Most of the time, beer talk comes up at a bar where I may order something someone has never seen or heard of - they break the ice and I start telling them about it. Sometimes they give it a try, other times they stick with their old stand-by. It's usually in the discussion of (what appears to them) the radical difference between what I'm drinking and what they're drinking that comparison discussion of different kinds (and brands) of beers evolve. Some are interested, some stick to their drink obstinately. My usual answer to the "loyal" ones is a shrug. I never go out of my way to point and bellow, "Oh my GAWD - how can you drink that?!" But I may think it!

You're right, there are many people who can't be convinced, but there are many others who can - and it's fun to see the "light" in their eyes when they discover what they've been missing.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
I think this list should be published here,

I'll see if I can dig it up.

S.

[rabidbeerjunkie]

OK. Maybe it's not about winning the war, but Richard's right, we DO need to keep fighting it. It's not only about the chemicals and additives "they" put in their beer, or the billions of advertising $$$ "they" spend(making what should be a $2.50 six-pk. $4.50^), or the dishonesty involved. It's the principle. I don't go out and try to force good, real beer down somebody's throat, although sometimes I'd like to. I try to educate, share and enlighten. Do I get combative at times? Oh, hell yes. Especially when I try to have a discussion with a macro-beer rep and they don't even know enough about their product to even begin to defend it. It's pathetic. I know there will always be purveyors and consumers of crap, but I'd like to save a few of the lemmings from their icy water demise. Beer Rant Part 1 concluded.
Prost!
Todd
P.S. Richard...I have been familiar with CAMRA for many years and support the work they do, but am not a member. Can any real-ale-loving guy join?via a website? Thanks.

[beerinator]

CAMRA's site (http://www.camra.org.uk/)

You can join up online. I joined a few years ago when I was in London, at the 'London Beer Festival'. Or at least I tried to. I never got any information about it in the mail. You're supposed to recieve a monthly newsletter, and other goodies. I really enjoyed my copy of the Good Beer Guide, and even got lucky enough to run into Roger Protz and he signed it, and took my wife and I out for a pint!

That alone was worth the price that I thought I paid to join! :)

[bsardin]

.In one way I agree with you. Why should we worry about converting others just so long as we get what we want.

Excellent point Richard. Another point that has not been made is the way these macro's promote beer. It is no wonder that most people think drunk when they hear beer enthusiast. You do see that when someone claims to be a wine enthusiast. Instead, people percieve them as sophisticated and knowledgable. Beer is just as complex as wine and just as elegant. Unfortunately, the macro's don't want anyone to know that or otherwise their product will become the Boone Hill of the beer world

[Richard English]

You can join CAMRA online and membership for those outside the EC costs £20 (about $32) per annum. Go to http://shop.camra.oxi.net/acatalog/CAMRA_Merchandise_CAMRA_Membership_26.html to sign up today.

Full details of the benefits available and other membership categories are on the site. The monthly newspaper "What's Brewing" is alone worth the membership fee and it has many articles about overseas beers (I learnt about Goose Island through What's Brewing).

Incidentally, I have no official connection with CAMRA but have been a Life Memebr for around 25 years.

[steveh]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Richard English
[B]I think this list should be published here, in the public media, be listed on every label and piece of point-of sale material and given as hard copy to every person starting on a drinking career!

Well, my excavation of my archives produced no results. I may have lost the document in a move, or it could be housed in a box in the attic (which looks startlingly similar to the warehouse in the last scene of Raiders of the Lost Arc). But I did some digging on the web to some avail and found this little bit:

"...supplied by the Center for Science in the Public Interest, a consumer group based in Washington, D.C., that recently made a not-very-successful effort to get manufacturers to voluntarily reveal their ingredients. I don't mean to single out the Miller company, but you may be interested to know that Miller Lite contains propylene glycol alginate, water, barley malt, corn syrup, chemically modified hop extracts, yeast, amyloglucosidase, carbon dioxide, papain enzyme, liquid sugar, potassium metabisulfite, and Emka-malt, whatever that is. I would venture to say that light beers as a class tend to have more additives than others, simply because they'd be totally flat and tasteless otherwise.

"For more info on this subject, see Chemical Additives in Booze, available from the Center for Science in the Public Interest, 1755 S Street NW, Washington, D.C. 20009."

--CECIL ADAMS

I'll plan a foray into the attic for the weekend - the list of "allowable additives" is quite astonishing, just in the fact that it's 2 pages long.

Steve

[Richard English]

Are you supposed to drink this stuff - or use it to steralise your breweing bucket?

[paul84043]

I actually read an article yesterday on sterilizing and general sanitization. The PHD that wrote the article actually DID recommend rinsing your equipment with the stash of Bud you have in the garage from your "unenlightened" days....pretty funny. I guess the alcohol does a fine job of killing off the microbeasties.

[hnrblbrbrn]

The Bud addiction reminds of my time in the Navy. We'd do our Med cruise and every port there was always the mob of guys looking for Bud. It seemed to me like trying to find the same girl everywhere. My philosophy was, since I'm here I'll try what's available, be it the women or the beer. Now that I'm married I'm still allowed to have different beers.

[beerinator]

Originally posted by hnrblbrbrn
... My philosophy was, since I'm here I'll try what's available, be it the women or the beer. ...

Too bad they don't make contraceptives for Bud! :)

[Bryant]

Originally posted by bsardin
I don't know if this has happened to many of you but when I have tried introduce co-workers to new beers there general reaction is "This is real good but I wouldn't drink it because it is too heavy. I can only drink 1 or 2 and I want to be able to drink as many beers as possible when I drink."

I really think it is attitudes like this that hurts the image of beer and beer drinker. It makes us all look like a bunch of drunks. I would personally rather have 1 really good beer that fills me up then a case of "chemical fizz" To me beer is a means to enrich life not just a means to aquiring a buzz.

Sorry just had to rant a little.

My friends and family flatly don't like the "stuff" I drink. My brother loves beer and particularly loves Moosehead, but he would just assume drink a Natural Light because he is cheap. I drink crafts and imports because I like them, but I'm not going to lie about it.... I like the end result as well. It's quite rare that I drink to the point where I am a stumbling, obnoxious moron but the "buzz" is part of the experience of beer drinking and I wouldn't take it away for anything.
I'm not jumping on your post as I know that you weren't saying you disapprove of someone who enjoys the "buzz" as well. I just have to say, I would never have started drinking beer in the first place if it didn't make me drunk. When I first started drinking beer, I would have just assumed to drink battery acid if it gave me the same effect. I thought it tasted like crap, but fortunately my priorities changed as I matured as did my palette.

Bryant

[Richard English]

Don't forget that there is a world of difference between the pleasant intoxication that comes from drinking reasonable quantities of good beer and the nausea that comes from drinking similar (or even lesser) amounts of rubbish beer and its additives.

With rubbish beer you will go home feeling sick and ill and have a splitting head in the morning; with Real Ale you'll go home feeling comfortable and at peace with the world and wake up with a clear head.

[hnrblbrbrn]

Richard,

You said that your post didn't appear due to offending A-B then possibly Bill Gates hid it.
Could it be you stumbled across a Microsoft and A-B conspiracy?? Maybe they're the ones out to take over the world.
The truth is out there ;)

[beerinator]

Originally posted by Richard English

With rubbish beer you will go home feeling sick and ill and have a splitting head in the morning; with Real Ale you'll go home feeling comfortable and at peace with the world and wake up with a clear head.

Richard, I've seen you say this before, and I understand what you're trying to say. But there are plenty of people who drink nothing but yellow fizzy beer, with no visible problems. I have a friend that I grew up with, and his parents drink a lot of beer. One drinks Natural Light(Nasty Light) and the other drinks Busch Light. They are healthy looking, trim 50+ year olds. I've talked to them about it, and they claim that during the summer(one is a teacher) they drink 6+ beers a day. They both never wake up with a hangover, and I am assuming that if they went to bed feeling sick every night they would have stopped drinking those brands of beers.

Maybe their insides are brimming with preservatives and additives, but they don't seem any the worse for it. The foods that most people eat today have stuff that is just as bad as what is put into mass marketed beer.

[Richard English]

I agree with you about the additives and preservatives in food, too. It's just that this is a beer site!

I suppose I would be better able to comment on the "6+ beers" contention if I could be sure what "a beer" is in the USA. Over here US beers are usually supplied in 330 Cl bottles (that's just over half an Imperial pint. If it's the same serving size in the USA, then 6 beers is rather less than four Imperial pints. Am I right here?

Four Imperial pints spread over a day would probably not make a regular boozer even slightly intoxicated, of course. However, the same quantity in an hour or so probably would.

Certainly, if In were to drink four Imperial pints (about 10% more than US pints) of medium-strength Real Ale in an evening I would feel pleasantly pickled but would wake with a clear head. The same quantity of fizz-beer would give me a thumper in the morning (and probably gastritis as well).

[beerinator]

bottled/canned beer in the US usually = 12 oz
Imperial Pint = 20 oz
A US pint by the way = 16 oz

6 bottled US beers = 72 oz/4 Imperial Pints = 80 oz
I don't know too many people(with jobs) who drink more than 72 oz of beer a day. I myself have consumed many more than that in one sitting, but not on a daily basis.

Of course, I would not be happy drinking 6 macrobrews. But, my point is that you and I are not every person. 6+ macrobrews obviously doesn't bother some people. So the preservatives(actually I think it's the gas, not the preservatives anyway) must not have an effect on everyone.

[paul84043]

My own personal observation has been that while drinking Macro-Fizz on a semi-regular basis, I could get away with it 70% of the time without a hangover. When we started drinking home brew, I did notice that the buzz is completely different, definitely more stealthy and much more consistent meaning that I know exactly how I'm going to feel the next day pretty much every time. Which by the way is pretty good.
BUT....when we went back to Macro-Fizz, it was horrible! Both myself and my wife had real nasty hangovers, like my body was having a hard time re-saturating with all the crap they put in them...

Basically, I noticed a big difference and it was enough for me personally to want to avoid it in the future.

[CaptHook]

Basically, I noticed a big difference and it was enough for me personally to want to avoid it in the future. [/B][/QUOTE]

Many of the Macros will give me an ice-cream headache after 2 cans. In 3 yyears of home brew, not one! I keg, 4 live taps on my bar 24-7. I comsume 5 gals per week with no ill effects. Macros
must be for the strong manly types.:D Maybe we need a club for wimps that can only handle "Scotch Ales"

[Richard English]

Quote "...But, my point is that you and I are not every person. ..."

Maybe this is the problem!

I have just finished a meeting in London and decided to have a jar with a friend. We popped into a local boozer near to Victoria and I have just returned home having had four pints (Imperial) of Charles Wells Bombardier (4.3 ABV).

I now expect to deal with my day's backlog of work (I work from home) and would be most aggrieved were I to wake up tomorrow with a hangover!

Clearly there is a difference in the way that people handle their alcohol. Having said which, I would now be feeling very poorly had I consumed four pints of, say, Carling - weaker though it surely is.

[asciibaron]

the conversion of the BIG 3 drinkers to finer quality beverages is self serving in several ways.

firstly, the BIG 3 are the major grain buyers of domestic grain products here in North America. they get the better quality grains - esp. in the past few drought years. This forces the smaller brewhouses to pay more for lessened quality. my local brewhouse switched to imported grains because they are more stable in cost and quality.

secondly, if a local beer retailer only has space for a limited number of beers, then they are going to stock that which moves off the shelfs quickly. they are in the retail business to make money, not enlighten people with "fancy" beers. the only way to convince these places to carry good beer is to hit them in the wallet.

and finally, when a retailer does carry the good stuff, their needs to be enough of a demand that the stock does not sit on the shelf for too long. i recently was amazed to find Anchor Steam at the local beer store - it was $8.50 a six pack. get it home and it was very old beer. tasted like it had been heated and refriged a few times - totally undrinkable. several other quality beers i purchased at local places all suffer the same fate - not enough rotation of the product and then when someone tries the good stuff, it is past it's prime.

here in the mid atlantic, Yuengling Lager is the new Rolling Rock. it is nearly everywhere and everyone wants it. but then again, "yuppies" are swilling down Schafer like mad.

[Richard English]

Quote: "...it was very old beer. tasted like it had been heated and refriged a few times - totally undrinkable...."

I don't know how the law is in the USA but in the UK this would be illegal. Any product or service sold must be "fit for purpose" and sellers are not allowed to exculde their liability in any way (by using such expressions as "sold as seen")

If the item is not fit for purpose (drinking, in the case of beer) then the purchaser has an absolute right to a refund or replacement.

If it's not a legal requirement in the USA, then it's certainly good commercial sense to refund, since nobody wants to go back to a shop that's let them down.

[asciibaron]

i have since discovered date codes and even my favorite local brew. i'd rather keep the money in the local economy and support Clipper City (www.clippercitybeer.com). did the tour on saturday and am very impressed with the qualityof product made less than 10 miles from my house.

it also helps that the owner is a very knowledgable and nice person.

so yeah, i'll have to ask around who has the good stuff when i want to stray from the flock.

where in the UK are you Richard? reply off forum.

[Guy Sajer, FS]

Don't forget about the glut of marketing that goes out over the airwaves for Big Beer. Ever notice how 99% of these commercials have nothing to do with taste but everything to do with their latest gimmick? That alone shuld tell you their product is second rate.
The biggest advantage I see for converting the masses to real beer over Big Beer is in quality of product. Since organic choices are begining to take hold in food, it's only a matter of time before people start to wonder aboout their beer ingredients. Talk to someone about crappy grains and preservatives in their beer as opposed to quality hops and whole grains, and their eyes light up.
After that impresion is made, the battle is far from over (sticker shock, liking beer that has a 'malt' taste to it after drinking Big Beer), but at least you've got them thinking in the right direction.