Geography of Beer

[Ninkasi_in_AZ]

I hope I have come to the right place for this post. I am just about to start my thesis lit review and I was hoping a few of you might have some input for sources. I am looking at the connection between sense of place and beer. Any ideas? Journal articles would be ideal, but at this point I am willing to check out anything.
Thanks.

[chazwicke]

Welcome to the board. I am certain you will find some helpful info. here.

[fretlessman71]

Welcome, welcome! You could possibly interview a few board members here, I suppose. Just what do you mean by "sense of place and beer"?

[hopjack13]

place and beer...hmmm
uh the west coast has the best beer! :p

[chazwicke]

England has the best beer!

[studentofbeer]

maybe one place to start would be michael jackson's website? he has archives of his beer writing discussing travels all around the world and how beer culture in each of these places is different.

http://www.beerhunter.com/

ill keep thinking of other things that might be useful.

[hopjack13]

WEST COAST!!!!

[Richard English]

Quote "...uh the west coast has the best beer!..."

I'm not convinced. St Austell is a bit bland and Smiles is in Bristol, not really the west coast. Of course, there's the Blue Anchor in Helston (one of the oldest home-brew houses) but there's no brewery with the age, tradition and general standards of the likes of Fullers and Youngs.

Surprisingly, since it's a holiday area, the West country is far from being the best areas for drinking. Though I did enjoy a day out on the West Somerset Steam Railway last summer - they have Real Ale on all their trains and in their station buffets.

[fretlessman71]

Are we talking about 2 different coasts here? ;)

[barley ben]

I would definately say so!

[Richard English]

That's just my point!

[Ninkasi_in_AZ]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Just what do you mean by "sense of place and beer"?

With beer being as regional as it is, it's possible to attach an exclusive regional identity to a brew. Pilsner Urquell is a great example beer of place. When you think of this beer, chances are you think of Pilsen in the Czech Rep or associate it with the region in some way, shape, or form.

This is true for a slew of brews and I basically want to document the connection and explore the reasons for beer's association with place in some regions (like Germany and Belgium) and not others.

[Richard English]

Historically one of the reasons for different types of beer (or even beer as opposed to wine) was simply the availability of ingredients. Too cold for grapes - grow barley.

The water, too, used to make a difference. The hard waters around Buron-on-Trent gave rise to the lighter types of beer of that region. London's softer water was better for darker brews.

That's not a reason now, of course, since water can be treated and ingredients transported. However, beer styles will have become associated with particular regions and those in the regions will have grown to expect the style and ofetn to reject anything else.

That's all changing now, of course, since the commercial pressure to maximise profits has meant that one style of beer - the cold, yellow, fizzy, tasteless and inert A-B chemical fizz - is now the most popular style in the world, by far. Probably 90% of the world's drinkers have never tried anything else but A-B or its clones.

As has been mentioned previously, it has only been through the efforts of those few people and organisations who have worked so tirelessly to stem the tide of yellow fizz that there are any indiginous beer styles left to discuss.

[dillen]

Midwest!!! Go Cubs

[MeridianFC]

Ninkasi,

It seems there are some pretty immediate beer/place associations. Who doesn't think of Dublin and the banks of the Liffey when supping on Guinness? I know for many a pint of Anchor Steam immediately evokes thoughts the maze of hills and the fog rolling in off the Bay in San Francisco. Doesn't a mug of Paulaner (or Spaten, Augustiner, Hofbrau, etc) make you think of the city of Munich and Oktoberfest tents? A goblet of Chimay the abbey deep in southern Belgian countryside?

As far as articles if you haven't read any Michael Jackson or Roger Protz, amongst many others, put down your pen and go out and start with these. They definitely cover much of what you seek. If you can find it the Michael Jackson Beer Hunter videos (Are these ever going to come out on dvd? How about a new series?) are worth a view.

[chazwicke]

When I think of Budweiser, I think of Ceske Budejovice in the Czech Republic.

[chazwicke]

(Except when I visited that brewery and Pilsner Urquell it was still Czechoslavakia)

[hopjack13]

WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST!!!!!!!
U.S.A.~!!!

[fretlessman71]

You mean, the Left Coast? I see.... and now, at least you're accurate in Richard's eyes by clarifying the country, right? So that post wan't a TOTAL loss... :D

[hopjack13]

actually thats the "BEST" Coast! do i sound bias?:D

[fretlessman71]

No, but you sound BIASED..... :D

[hopjack13]

thank you happy helper :p

[fretlessman71]

Feel free to call upon my humble singularity whenever the need for grammatical perfection arises in the future! ;)

[thewiz]

Originally posted by Richard English
Historically one of the reasons for different types of beer (or even beer as opposed to wine) was simply the availability of ingredients. Too cold for grapes - grow barley.

I'd like to add:

climate (ales vs. lagers)

customs and traditions (oktoberfest and marzen)

typical foods in a geographic area

and I'm sure a bunch of other things I just can't think of this moment.

[Richard English]

Quote "...at least you're accurate in Richard's eyes by clarifying the country, right? So that post wan't a TOTAL loss... ..."

I had realised, of course, that it was the west coast of the USA that was subject to mention in that posting. I did want to make the point, though, that over 90% of the world's population does not live in the USA and neither is the USA the world's largest country (or even the world's largest democracy).

Since there is no facility on this board to indicate contributors' origins, we cannot necessarily assume that all, or maybe even most, of its contributors hail from the USA - tempting though that may be.

[Richard English]

Quote, "...Feel free to call upon my humble singularity whenever the need for grammatical perfection arises in the future!..."

Since you raise a topic that is dear to my heart, but one which I have hitherto refrained from mentioning on this board (which is not, after all, a spelling and grammar board), could I ask that you make a start on your grammatical crusade by asking that contributors make proper use of the apostrophe?

To start with, let me point out that there is a difference in meaning between the word "its" and the word "it's" - which difference seems unknown to many.

[thewiz]

Originally posted by Richard English
To start with, let me point out that there is a difference in meaning between the word "its" and the word "it's" - which difference seems unknown to many.

don't forget its'


Originally posted by Richard English
I had realised, of course, that it was the west coast of the USA

I realized (but didn't realise) of course that I'm a smart aleck.... lol

[Richard English]

Quote "...don't forget its'...

Since the word does not exist - or, more acurately, has no meaning - , I suggest it is actually better forgotten (should anyone have been unwise enough ever to have learnt it)

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
Since the word does not exist - or, more acurately, has no meaning - , I suggest it is actually better forgotten (should anyone have been unwise enough ever to have learnt it)

Acurately? Sorry Richard, people who live in glass houses and all -- including yours truly -- but I couldn't resist! ;)

While we're on the apostrophe subject, they're not to be used in plural words - ex. lagers, not lager's - adding the apostrophe makes the word possessive, as in "The lager's flavor was head and shoulders better than average lagers."

Let's not even get started on there, their, and they're...

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
As far as articles if you haven't read any Michael Jackson or Roger Protz, amongst many others, put down your pen and go out and start with these. They definitely cover much of what you seek. If you can find it the Michael Jackson Beer Hunter videos (Are these ever going to come out on dvd? How about a new series?) are worth a view.

I'll add Jackson's Beer Companion: The World's Great beer Styles, Gastronomy, and Traditions to the bibliography list too, this is the book from which the Beer Hunter series was basically adapted. Jackson's New World Guide to Beer would add some great info as well.

Speaking of that series, has anyone seen it available on video lately? I used to have it, recorded from the original Discovery Channel showing, but I leant it out... DVD re-release would be great.

S.

[Richard English]

Quote "...Acurately? Sorry Richard, people who live in glass houses and all -- including yours truly -- but I couldn't resist!..."

There is, or should be, a law that states that any correction posted to correct another's grammar will, itself, contain an error.

I would generally not presume to correct simple typos. but actual errors of word use are, I suggest, in a different league.

The, as yet un-named, rule has found its next victim!

Quote "..."The lager's flavor was head and shoulders better than average lagers."..."

The comparison was between flavours - you can't compare flavours and lagers. So your example should have read, "...The lager's flavour was head and shoulders better than that of average lagers..."

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
There is, or should be, a law that states that any correction posted to correct another's grammar will, itself, contain an error.

I'm sure it falls under Murphy's somewhere! ;)

S.

[Richard English]

Quote, "...I'm sure it falls under Murphy's somewhere!..."

Poor Captain Edward A. Murphy! For a relatively unimportant USAF engineer his name has certainly become mud (when it should have remained Murphy!)

[studentofbeer]

lol richard... see i take a different tack. my job is working as a reporter and editor right now, but when it comes to the internet im as anything goes as the next person, as you can tell by my penchant for all lowercase words.

chalk it up to the internet generation...

i appreciate proper word choice but things like apostrophes and caps go out the door online!

plus, you gotta wonder how many beers people have had while they post on this board.

at least no one here writes in 1337 5p34|< or text-messaging shorthand.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
Poor Captain Edward A. Murphy! For a relatively unimportant USAF engineer his name has certainly become mud (when it should have remained Murphy!)

No, no -- Mudd was the doctor who administered to John Wilkes Booth's broken leg after the confederate sympathizer assassinated Abraham Lincoln. Mudd's treatment (and safe harbor) prolonged Booth's evasion of the law and forever sullied the good doctor's name!

S.

http://www.nps.gov/foth/escapjwb.htm

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Are we talking about 2 different coasts here? ;)

Everyone knows that the MIDDLECOAST has the best damned beer!

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by thewiz
I'd like to add:

climate (ales vs. lagers)


Once upon a time (not to long ago either) there was no distinction as lager yeast had not been identified.

[Richard English]

Quote "...i appreciate proper word choice but things like apostrophes and caps go out the door online!..."

I can understand the advantages of this when using a mobile 'phone to send a text message - the mobile telephone's keyboard's design is such that capitalisation and punctuation is time-consuming.

In the same way, those of us who grew up in the days when telegrams meant a method of communication and not a party entertainment, will recall telegraphese - where whole words were dropped, and abbreviations used, simply to save money (telegrams being charged for, of course, by the word).

However, text messaging techniques are not necessary when a proper keyboard since the process of capitalisation and punctuation is no more complex than is the process of normal typing.

The rules of punctuation and grammar exist to aid understanding and, to my mind, you ignore them at your peril in formal (or even semi-formal) communication!

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Richard English


I had realised, of course, that it was the west coast of the USA that was subject to mention in that posting. I did want to make the point, though, that over 90% of the world's population does not live in the USA and neither is the USA the world's largest country (or even the world's largest democracy).


Yes, but they're the least IMPORTANT 90%.... :D

...and the USA isn't a democracy, by the way - it's a republic. Splitting hairs, to be sure, but it's a fair distinction.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote, "...Feel free to call upon my humble singularity whenever the need for grammatical perfection arises in the future!..."

Since you raise a topic that is dear to my heart, but one which I have hitherto refrained from mentioning on this board (which is not, after all, a spelling and grammar board), could I ask that you make a start on your grammatical crusade by asking that contributors make proper use of the apostrophe?

To start with, let me point out that there is a difference in meaning between the word "its" and the word "it's" - which difference seems unknown to many.

Works for me! Shall I explain (since Richard and I feel the same way)?....

If you already know this, I'm NOT talking to you. If you DON'T, I'm not PREACHING, either, but you might learn something by accident!

-"It's" is a word that is a lazy way of saying "it is": "It's about 32F outside... better get your coat!"

-"Its" (note lack of apostrophe) is a word that refers to possesion of the object in question: "I'd love to get my coat, but its zipper doesn't work!"

Here's hoping you don't feel like I'm ramming this down your throat, and I hope Richard will agree with my definitions. Next week we'll discuss the differences between "you're" and "your"! Or maybe "there", "their", and "they're". Or MAYBE...... ahh, screw it... ;)

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Everyone knows that the MIDDLECOAST has the best damned beer!

Yeah, but you're a state-and-a-half away from the Rockies, brewmonkey.... :D

[Richard English]

Quote "...Yes, but they're the least IMPORTANT 90%...."

I will not rise to the bait - I will just suggest to Fuller's that they don't sell you any more 1845!

Quote "......and the USA isn't a democracy, by the way - it's a republic. Splitting hairs, to be sure, but it's a fair distinction..."

The USA's consititution is that of a Republic - as is the UK's that of a Monarchy. We are, though, both democracies - we both have the unfettered right to vote for our leaders (and just to head off any comments about the Monarchy's not being elected I would point out that the Queen is not effectively the leader of the country).

It is quite possible to have a Rebublic that is not democratic - there are many such extant right now.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Yes, but they're the least IMPORTANT 90%....

...and the USA isn't a democracy, by the way - it's a republic. Splitting hairs, to be sure, but it's a fair distinction.

Yes indeed we are a Free Republic.

While we may not be the most populated country in the world, we are the most populous country that is either a third world country or at least acting like one. China and India may have 2 billion people between them, but they have better then 3/4 of the population living in substandard conditions and well below the poverty line.

Russia (#6) doesn't even factor in anymore after the breakup of the CCCP. They have about 1/2 of the US population.

The other 2 countries rounding out the top (4 & 5) Indonesia and Brazil. Enough said....

Did I mention that we are the worlds only superpower left? :D

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by studentofbeer
lol richard... see i take a different tack. my job is working as a reporter and editor right now, but when it comes to the internet im as anything goes as the next person, as you can tell by my penchant for all lowercase words.

chalk it up to the internet generation...

i appreciate proper word choice but things like apostrophes and caps go out the door online!

plus, you gotta wonder how many beers people have had while they post on this board.

at least no one here writes in 1337 5p34|< or text-messaging shorthand.

I disagree completely with this concept. Beer or no beer, we are, after all, COMMUNICATING, and apostrophes help us do just that. Maybe I'm just a prude in my old age (everyone here knows how I feel about getting drunk for drunkeness' sake), but I maintain that proper grammar and punctuation means proper communication. (Well, at least you did YOUR part, anyway...) I refuse to chalk it up to a new generation because there are enough things about the new generation that I can't get used to - and I'm not ready to give this up just yet!

And no, I don't hate the younger generation... just ask my wife about that! ;)

[Richard English]

Quote "...and I hope Richard will agree with my definitions. ..."

Almost 100%. In the UK, though, "it's" can also be an abbreviation for "it has" as well as "it is".

For example, "...I'm sorry - you can't have any 1845 - it's all been sold..."

I assume that this usage is known in US English as well.

Incidentally, could I reccommend to the attention of those who are interested in the proper use of English, the Wordcraft site http://wordcraft.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=441607094

There are at least two of us who post here who also post there.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...Yes, but they're the least IMPORTANT 90%...."

I will not rise to the bait - I will just suggest to Fuller's that they don't sell you any more 1845!

Quote "......and the USA isn't a democracy, by the way - it's a republic. Splitting hairs, to be sure, but it's a fair distinction..."

The USA's consititution is that of a Republic - as is the UK's that of a Monarchy. We are, though, both democracies - we both have the unfettered right to vote for our leaders (and just to head off any comments about the Monarchy's not being elected I would point out that the Queen is not effectively the leader of the country).

It is quite possible to have a Rebublic that is not democratic - there are many such extant right now.

We are a Republic that practices a democratic process in the election of MOST of the officials but that is it. A lot of the people in politics are NOT ELECTED but rather appointed to their positions (all Federal judges are appointed) as well as ALL cabinet members of the Government. The people who help guide the Presidents decision were never elected they were appointed by him. While Congress does get to confirm appointments, they can be made without the approval of Congress (President Bush's latest appointment was made this way), while Congress is not in session.

Richard, believe it or not most Americans do understand that Britain is a Constitutional Monarchy and that the Queen/King are just figureheads and have no true power over the law of the land. But you also have to understand that alot of us find it absurd to have a family that lives off the Government but has no role in politics.

Here in the US we call them Welfare cases.....(ducking for cover)

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...Yes, but they're the least IMPORTANT 90%...."

I will not rise to the bait - I will just suggest to Fuller's that they don't sell you any more 1845!

Quote "......and the USA isn't a democracy, by the way - it's a republic. Splitting hairs, to be sure, but it's a fair distinction..."

The USA's consititution is that of a Republic - as is the UK's that of a Monarchy. We are, though, both democracies - we both have the unfettered right to vote for our leaders (and just to head off any comments about the Monarchy's not being elected I would point out that the Queen is not effectively the leader of the country).

It is quite possible to have a Rebublic that is not democratic - there are many such extant right now.

The distinction between a republic and a democracy was explained to me as follows: If 51% of the voting American public decided to repeal the ban on murder, it wouldn't get past the Supreme Court. An entire amendment would have to be removed from the constitution, and that would take much more than a majority vote. If this was a true democracy, it would have to become law after said vote. There are too many checks and balances to make sure that some things never come to pass in this country! And I'm sure England is the same way.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...and I hope Richard will agree with my definitions. ..."

Almost 100%. In the UK, though, "it's" can also be an abbreviation for "it has" as well as "it is".

For example, "...I'm sorry - you can't have any 1845 - it's all been sold..."

I assume that this usage is known in US English as well.

The reason it's not well known is because the phrase "it has" isn't in very common usage outside of the New England area. We'd rephrase the line as such:

"I'm sorry - you can't have any 1845 - we're sold out."

Americans tend to speak in the present tense whenever possible for whatever reason, for better or for worse...

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by brewmonkey

Richard, believe it or not most Americans do understand that Britain is a Constitutional Monarchy and that the Queen/King are just figureheads and have no true power over the law of the land. But you also have to understand that alot of us find it absurd to have a family that lives off the Government but has no role in politics.

Here in the US we call them Welfare cases.....(ducking for cover)

The difference here, brewmonkey, is that the USA doesn't make a whole lot of money off of THEIR welfare cases, and they don't really care for those people very much, either!

I think the Queen is pretty cool... didn't I see a picture of her somewhere holding up a pint?

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by hopjack13
WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST,WEST COAST!!!!!!!
U.S.A.~!!!

England!!!!!!!!

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
The difference here, brewmonkey, is that the USA doesn't make a whole lot of money off of THEIR welfare cases, and the don't really care for those people very much, either!

I think the Queen is pretty cool... didn't I see a picture of her somewhere holding up a pint?

I know, but I just had to give Richard some crap. :D

[fretlessman71]

Well deserved, I'm sure... :) (Sorry, Richard!)

[chazwicke]

I think the monarchy is pretty cool to. I know there is a movement to get rid of it. I say "Long live the Queen!"

[brewmonkey]

Since I am not a subject of the crown I have no opinion on it. For me to say it should stay/go would be like a Brit saying we should get rid of the Supreme Court (or some other Governmental body). At least that is how I feel.

[fretlessman71]

Sounds fair... this works for us, that works for them; we'll let it be!

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I think the monarchy is pretty cool to. I know there is a movement to get rid of it. I say "Long live the Queen!"

...Is pretty cool WHAT??!?!?!?!??!? ;)

[Richard English]

Quote "...The difference here, brewmonkey, is that the USA doesn't make a whole lot of money off of THEIR welfare cases, and the don't really care for those people very much, either!

I think the Queen is pretty cool... didn't I see a picture of her somewhere holding up a pint?..."

In fact it is a common misconception that the Monarchy costs us a great deal of money but it's not the case. I did work out the figures once and, from memory, the Civil List (that's the money the Crown gets from the taxpayer) is around about 16 pence (about 30 US cents) per person, per year. Most of us think that's pretty good value and you only need to compare the numbers standing outside Buckingham Palace any day with those standing outside the White House to get a pretty good idea of which is the most popular tourist attraction - George Bush or Queen Elizabeth!

London is the most visited city in Europe, if not the world (for some reason Tijuana is supposed to hold that distinction but I am at a loss as to understand why - presumably it must be on the way to somewhere). I doubt London would hold that distinction were it not for our Monarchy.

In the Buckingham Arms (Chazwyke, you've been there - it's one of the best Young's houses in London) there is a picture of the late Queen Mother drinking a pint of Young's Bitter. {Prince Charles and Philip both like a pint but I don't think the Queen does. GWB, of course, prefers Coca Cola.

[Beaver]

Speaking of non-Democratic elections, don't forget the Presidency. With the electoral college in place, it is not a true democratic election. I'm pretty sure in some states, the electoral votes don't even need to go to the popular vote winner of that state.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Beaver
Speaking of non-Democratic elections, don't forget the Presidency. With the electoral college in place, it is not a true democratic election. I'm pretty sure in some states, the electoral votes don't even need to go to the popular vote winner of that state.

I think Nebraska gets that distinction!

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I think the monarchy is pretty cool to.

Ahhhhhhhh, he ended a sentence with a preposition........:eek:

Or did you mean "Too" as in also?

LOL

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Richard English
GWB, of course, prefers Coca Cola.
Fine with me - if he can't hold his liquor, I don't want him drinking while he's in charge of MY country!

At least it's not Pepsi..... :D

[fretlessman71]

I'm sorry.... I sure hope that our friend who began this thread has all the information he needs! Let's head back that direction. Brewmonkey and Richard, you two know an awful lot about who drinks what, where they drink it, and why it's drunk there... and since I've been chatting with the two of you, I'll throw this out: Maybe an online interview (if this would be sufficient for a thesis) would work well! The three of you ought to try to make this work.

[brewmonkey]

I actually wrote a paper my second year of college on a subject very similar. The paper is long gone, but I may be able to help out some. Feel free to PM me with some questions and I will be glad to help.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
...Is pretty cool WHAT??!?!?!?!??!? ;)


TOO (That is my poor typing skills)

[chazwicke]

[i]Originally posted by Richard E

In the Buckingham Arms (Chazwyke, you've been there - it's one of the best Young's houses in London) there is a picture of the late Queen Mother drinking a pint of Young's Bitter. {Prince Charles and Philip both like a pint but I don't think the Queen does. GWB, of course, prefers Coca Cola. [/B]


I remember the pictures.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by chazwicke
TOO (That is my poor typing skills)

THOSE ARE your poor typing skills. (You've gotten my dander up - I'll keep harping on you until you get it right! ;))

[chazwicke]

thems my pore skills

[fretlessman71]

Naw.... DEMS yo pore SKILLZ! :D

[Richard English]

Quote "...THOSE ARE your poor typing skills. (You've gotten my dander up - I'll keep harping on you until you get it right!..."

I think we need to be careful here. The sentence as written could be quite correct when taken in context. I had assumed that the comment was in answer to the accusation of an error.

If the word "that" refers to the situation, then the sentence is correct as can readily be seen if the whole exchange is considered as one coversation.

"Hey, you've made a mistake by writing 'to' instead of 'too'"

"I'm sorry - that's my poor typing skills"

It is easy (and often unfair) to take small fragments out of context. (But it's a trick that most journalists love to do).

[chazwicke]

Now you've got it.

[Theakston]

Originally posted by Richard English

London is the most visited city in Europe, if not the world (for some reason Tijuana is supposed to hold that distinction but I am at a loss as to understand why -

Cheap tequila and hookers.:eek:

[fretlessman71]

Interesting how the sentence looks much better when the contraction is used, isn't it?

Of course you're right, but I still feel that it could go either way. And punctuation would certainly have helped to make that a lot clearer, which is where we began this bogarting of a perfectly good thread! :o

[bigmf]

I am very sorry I missed most of this discussion. Poor use of grammar and punctuation is a pet peeve of mine as well. So to the conversation I would like to add the following:

Prepositions are not for ending sentences with.

M.

[chazwicke]

And i before e except after c.

[Theakston]

How to write like a wanker (http://www.guidenet.net/resources/wanker.html)

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by chazwicke
And i before e except after c.
.... or the sound of an "a" as in "neighbor" and "sleigh"!

[Richard English]

Quote "...Prepositions are not for ending sentences with..."

There is no rule, in US or UK English, that makes this stipulation. If it is logical to end a sentence with a preposition, then that's what you should end it with.

Otherwise you might get the kind of tortuous construction that Winston Churchill exemplified in his reponse to a civil servant whose refusal to end with a preposition annoyed him.

"This is", said Churchill "The kind of language up with which I will not put"

[bigmf]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...Prepositions are not for ending sentences with..."

There is no rule, in US or UK English, that makes this stipulation. If it is logical to end a sentence with a preposition, then that's what you should end it with.

Otherwise you might get the kind of tortuous construction that Winston Churchill exemplified in his reponse to a civil servant whose refusal to end with a preposition annoyed him.

"This is", said Churchill "The kind of language up with which I will not put"

I know all of that Richard, I was hoping someone would find the humour in the sentence, without having to resort to the smilies.:(

M.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...Prepositions are not for ending sentences with..."

There is no rule, in US or UK English, that makes this stipulation. If it is logical to end a sentence with a preposition, then that's what you should end it with.

Otherwise you might get the kind of tortuous construction that Winston Churchill exemplified in his reponse to a civil servant whose refusal to end with a preposition annoyed him.

"This is", said Churchill "The kind of language up with which I will not put"
Must be a Harvard rule.... heard it all my life.

Couldn't WC have said "I will simply not put up with this kind of language," or was he trying to be sardonic?

There's an old joke where a young freshman at Harvard stopped a professor and said, "Excuse me, sir, but could you tell me where the library is at?"

"Young man," the prof replied, "At Harvard we NEVER end our sentences with a preposition."

"Oh, I see," said the freshman. "In that case, could you tell me where the library is at, asshole?" ;)

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by bigmf
I know all of that Richard, I was hoping someone would find the humour in the sentence, without having to resort to the smilies.:

M.
Humor? There's no humor in language... this is not a laughing matter! ;)

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...Prepositions are not for ending sentences with..."

There is no rule, in US or UK English, that makes this stipulation. If it is logical to end a sentence with a preposition, then that's what you should end it with.

There's almost always a better way to phrase sentences like this... for example, "If it is logical to end a sentence with a preposition, then that's how you ought to end it." Doesn't that sound better?

[Richard English]

Quote 1. "...Couldn't WC have said "I will simply not put up with this kind of language," or was he trying to be sardonic..."

Churchill was making, by giving an example, that there are times when it's better to end a sentence with a preposition than to use an awkward sentence.

Quote 2. "...There's almost always a better way to phrase sentences like this..."

There is almost always a way to re-write any sentence and it's often the best thing to do. However, as I have already said (notwithstanding anything that Harward might have to say on the matter) it is perfectly in order to end a sentence with a proposition and it's often the best way to get the effect you need.

There are many "rules" which are quite false but which have gained currency and are believed by too many.

A pint to anyone who can find an authorititive source that firmly states that:

A preposition is the wrong thing to ever end a sentence with.

It is wrong to ever split an ininitive

And it is wrong to start a sentence with a conjunction

Or that the rule about one-word sentences is simple.

Eschew!

[fretlessman71]

Don't tell me this is something I'm not allowed to boldly go on with! Rubbish! ;)

[brewmonkey]

The preposition ending a sentence stems from Latin where you cannot split the preposition from it's noun (or the noun phrase if the noun is modified by adjectives) without losing the meaning of the word. While there is no rule in US or UK grammar that stipulates it cannot be done, it should be avoided when possible to avoid confusing the reader.

[Richard English]

Quote "...it should be avoided when possible to avoid confusing the reader..."

No. It should be avoided if it might confuse the reader. If their use clarifies, then both split infinitives and sentences ended with prepositions are perfectly acceptable - indeed are preferable - to the kind of convoluted construction that might otherwise be necessary.

And I'll pass on the apostrophe...!

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...it should be avoided when possible to avoid confusing the reader..."

No. It should be avoided if it might confuse the reader.



That is what I said.

[Richard English]

Quote "...Quote "...it should be avoided when possible to avoid confusing the reader..."

No. It should be avoided if it might confuse the reader.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is what I said...."

I can't speak for US English but those two sentences have quite different meanings in UK English.

The first means that it should be avoided - if not it will confuse the reader.

The second means it should only be avoided if, by its use, it will confuse the reader.

The first is a prohibition, the second a warning.

[brewmonkey]

You are reading way to much into something simple, you are trying to play a semantics game.

[Richard English]

This is the whole thrust of my argument. Precision and accuracy in langauge is important otherwise errors and misunderstandings can, and do occur.

Remember, the communication is for the benefit of the receiver, not the transmitter. If the recipient misunderstands the message then it matters not how perfect the originator of the message feels it is. It has not succeeded.

I misunderstood your message - not because I am playing with semantics but because its meaning was not clear to me. That it might be my own fault because I am unfamiliar with the nuances of US grammatical construction matters not - the misunderstanding happened.

This is why, when I post here, I freqently take the trouble to clarify British terms where I feel they might be misunderstood; you will never see me write about "a beer", for example, when the context needs an understandable quantity. I would say that it's an Imperial Pint or half a litre - or whatever, simply to help the reader.

[brewmonkey]

A half liter sounds good right now.

[MeridianFC]

A few points:

1. To say this thread has veered off course is a gross understatement.

2. "Two countries separated by a common language" anyone?

3. I will not even pull out my linguistics training and get into the realm of correct colloquial communication, language & power structure ideals, and the like.

4. In the matter of grammar and spelling, I throw myself on the mercy of the court.

5. Why is not "the Beer Hunter" on available on dvd?

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
Why is not "the Beer Hunter" on available on dvd?

Don't know. I've checked Amazon.com and the Discovery Channel, nothing out there but used versions of the videos.

Maybe a post at Beer Hunter.com is in order? Or a FLOOD of posts!

S.

[studentofbeer]

Originally posted by Theakston
How to write like a wanker (http://www.guidenet.net/resources/wanker.html)

<-----wanker

Originally posted by brewmonkey
A half liter sounds good right now.

You're telling me.

you all should go get this book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1592400876/qid=1074888209//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-7273787-7544646?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). (or this one for you folks in the uk (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1861976127/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/026-4455613-5121265).)

here's the joke the book title is based on: A panda walks into a bar, orders a sandwich, fires a gun and heads for the door. Why did he do that? the barman calls after him.

The panda tosses him a badly punctuated wildlife manual. "I'm a panda," he says. "Look me up." The barman finds the relevant page, which says: "Panda: Large, black-and-white bear-like mammal native of China. Eats, shoots and leaves."


punctuation can be a bit overdone tho. one of my favorites is a note from James Thurber to another writer at the New Yorker criticizing him for the sentence, "After dinner, the men moved into the living room." Thurber said, "this was Ross's way of giving the men time to push back their chairs and stand up. There must, as we know, be a comma after every move, made by men, on this earth."

[brewmonkey]

I think with that joke this thread should die!

[hopjack13]

:o well my grammer sux and so does my spelling! but it doesn't bother me, i have plenty of other skills to make up for it! if someting needs to be rebuilt, welded or wired up ? im your man, but if it needs to be type up you better get a secretary. i save a lot of money, i don't have to call electrians, plumbers or mechanics i can do most of it by myself ( lack of tools screws me up sometimes) but i guess th point is just because someone doesn't type well it shouldn't be an issue. we're all here for the beer anywayz!

[threecb]

Geez, now I see how the 1000 club stays on top of the posting leaderboard!;)

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by hopjack13
:o well my grammer sux and so does my spelling! but it doesn't bother me, i have plenty of other skills to make up for it! if someting needs to be rebuilt, welded or wired up ? im your man, but if it needs to be type up you better get a secretary. i save a lot of money, i don't have to call electrians, plumbers or mechanics i can do most of it by myself ( lack of tools screws me up sometimes) but i guess th point is just because someone doesn't type well it shouldn't be an issue. we're all here for the beer anywayz!

Why was this directed at me? I did not knock anyones use or should I say misuse of grammar. In fact the opposite is true, while I do not care for the lazy way's the internet seems to have brought about I could give a rats ass how you post.

[hopjack13]

take it easy there tough guy :p
im ment sorry for not killing the thread

[brewmonkey]

Ahhhhh, I see said the blind man.

[hopjack13]

talking to his def dog :D

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by threecb
Geez, now I see how the 1000 club stays on top of the posting leaderboard!;)

Hey, I'm staying out of this one!

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Ahhhhh, I see said the blind man.

As he picked up his hammer and saw.

[brewmonkey]

One dark morning in the middle of the night
Two dead boys got up to fight
One was blind, the other could not see
so they used a dummy for a referee
Back to back they faced each other
pulled out knives and stabbed each other
A blind policeman saw it all
and cam and shot the two dead boys.

[chazwicke]

It rained all night the day I left.
The weather it was dry.
the sun so hot,
I froze to death.
Suzannah Don't you cry!

[hopjack13]

hey two deaad boys doesn't rhyme with saw it all?:mad:

[chazwicke]

A deaf pliceman heard the noise
and came and shot the two dead boys.

[fretlessman71]

If you don't believe this story is true,
Ask the blind man - he saw it too!

[thewiz]

Originally posted by Richard English
We are, though, both democracies - we both have the unfettered right to vote for our leaders

(sorry in advance for not helping to keep this on topic)

Richard - are you aware we don't vote for President of the USA?

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by thewiz
(sorry in advance for not helping to keep this on topic)

Richard - are you aware we don't vote for President of the USA?

I love it when people just throw this out there like that. We do vote for the President/Vice President. The electoral college then based on the votes in EACH INDIVIDUAL STATE casts their vote in accordance with the wishes of the voters. I do believe there is only one case where the electoral college (and it was only one elector) voted differently then the majority of the popular votes. That is why on election night you see them keeping tally of states, esopecially the ones with a large amount of electoral votes. You could literally win the majority of the states and still lose the election or even have the majority of the public votes (done twice now) and still lose the election based on states electoral colleges.

If you do not carry TX, NY, CA, FL, OH, PA, IL, MI, NJ you might as well hang up your hat. Those states alone count for 250+ of the needed 270 votes to win the election. Add WA and VA to the list of carried states and it does not matter of the rest of the states voted 100% against you, you would be President with over 270 required electoral votes.

Be careful when you say we don't vote for President, the last election should show you that no only do we vote, EVERY vote counts.

For you guys wondering what two elections I was talkning about.

Grover Cleveland Vs. Benjamin Harrison- Cleveland won the popular vote but lost the election. He failed to carry several critical states.

George Bush Vs. Al Gore- Neck and neck until FL. Gore failed to carry the popular vote of the state even though he had the majority of the popular vote in the nation. He also failed to carry several critical states that would normally have voted Democratic.


Anyway, we do vote for the President and whoever informed you that we don't has lied to you.

[thewiz]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
You could literally win the majority of the states and still lose the election or even have the majority of the public votes (done twice now) and still lose the election based on states electoral colleges.

...you that no only do we vote, EVERY vote counts...

Anyway, we do vote for the President and whoever informed you that we don't has lied to you.

Clearly I meant that if it were a simple democracy, our vote would go for a candidate and count. Obviously, if you can have the majority of the votes and not win the election, a single vote doesn't count. It counts towards a 'sub-election' of sorts.

Being a Republican in California MY vote for president hasn't counted since the days of Reagan. Every vote in Florida was of unbelievable importance, but California was irrelevant. A better way to realistically put this is: "Every vote MAY count"

We vote for an elector, not for the President. The electors vote for the President, and they may or may not vote for who we wanted them to. That isn't a lie....

Sorry to invade this thread again...if we desire continuing this discussion, maybe we should open a new thread?

[brewmonkey]

Nah, we are having fun keeping this one as dysfunctional as possible.

[thewiz]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Nah, we are having fun keeping this one as dysfunctional as possible.

cool.... dysfunctional I can relate to 8-)

[chazwicke]

I agree, I love it when a thread goes haywire. Usually means that there is lots of good discussion.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by thewiz
cool.... dysfunctional I can relate to 8-)

Is that your stack of checks on the layout?


Before I got into brewing I was a poker dealer for Harrah's Casino. I loved to deal (especially Hold-Em) and now I play as often as I can. I will play other variants, but they just don't have the mystique that hold-em does.

I have only played no limit once and a few pot limit games, but I prefer to stick to the smaller 5-10 games.

Who else is a card player?

[hopjack13]

uhh...i can play go fish!:D

[fretlessman71]

52 Pick Up anyone? ;)

[Stodbrew]

As far as gambling goes with cards, I prefer blackjack. The game I really like to play, though, is craps. It's absolutely addicting.

[chazwicke]

I have watched them play poker in the casinos but I usually play blackjack or roulette. I love watching Texas Hold Em on TV though. I may try it next time I'm out in Vegas.

[hopjack13]

Originally posted by Stodbrew
The game I really like to play, though, is craps. It's absolutely addicting.
i love craps too ! and roulette! the only games i play, so it's not hard to find me in a casino.

[brewmonkey]

Craps was the first game I learned hoe to deal. You think it is fun to play, dealing it on a Friday night is a blast. IF your table is even close to luke warm you will make about $200 in tips. Of course, you better know all the payoffs quick because they will not slow the dice down for you.

[MeridianFC]

It's gotta be poker, man.

[brewmonkey]

Maybe we need to organize a Stout, Stogie and Poker event and have all the proceeds go to a charitable organization.

[MeridianFC]

Where do I sign up?

[chazwicke]

Count me in.

[thewiz]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Is that your stack of checks on the layout?

Yeah, I had just got my camera phone and decided to snap a quick pic.... it's been a pretty cool avatar so I keep using it.

Before I got into brewing I was a poker dealer for Harrah's Casino. I loved to deal (especially Hold-Em) and now I play as often as I can. I will play other variants, but they just don't have the mystique that hold-em does.
I have only played no limit once and a few pot limit games, but I prefer to stick to the smaller 5-10 games.
Who else is a card player? [/B]

I dealt when I was in college and a couple of yrs ago because a friend ran the poker room (needed help). I'm a 10/20 and tourney player now, when I can find a game. 'round here it's usually 3/6 drizzle. What area are you from brewmonkey? Maybe we'll have to hook up sometime when I travel.

[thewiz]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I have watched them play poker in the casinos but I usually play blackjack or roulette. I love watching Texas Hold Em on TV though. I may try it next time I'm out in Vegas.

Well.... coincidentally I just won my way into one of those TV events. It's one of the World Poker Tour events in Aruba. $1 million first place.... that's a lot of beer!

Anybody know if there's any good beer in Aruba?
8-)

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by thewiz
Yeah, I had just got my camera phone and decided to snap a quick pic.... it's been a pretty cool avatar so I keep using it.



I dealt when I was in college and a couple of yrs ago because a friend ran the poker room (needed help). I'm a 10/20 and tourney player now, when I can find a game. 'round here it's usually 3/6 drizzle. What area are you from brewmonkey? Maybe we'll have to hook up sometime when I travel.

I am in Kansas City and we have several poker rooms in the area too. Harrah's (North KC) shut theirs down but Ameristar and Argosy have one running as well Harrah's Prarie Band (Topeka KS) and the Sac & Fox up towards Atchison. Sadly when they do have Hold-Em spread it is a 1-4-8-8 game and either everyone is in or everyone is out. Amazing when every one lands suited connectors! :rolleyes:

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by thewiz
Well.... coincidentally I just won my way into one of those TV events. It's one of the World Poker Tour events in Aruba. $1 million first place.... that's a lot of beer!

Anybody know if there's any good beer in Aruba?
8-)

Hey good luck with that! you will have to let us know when it is televised. Again, good luck!

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by thewiz
Well.... coincidentally I just won my way into one of those TV events. It's one of the World Poker Tour events in Aruba. $1 million first place.... that's a lot of beer!

Anybody know if there's any good beer in Aruba?
8-)

I have been watching the WPT as well as the Party Poker Million and have been debating on trying to get in through partypoker.com. My luck though, I would get stuck at a table with Phil Helmuth.

[chazwicke]

Go for it Brewmonkey. you guys would have a lot of moral support from this board.

[brewmonkey]

My wife thinks I should too.

[hopjack13]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Go for it Brewmonkey. you guys would have a lot of moral support from this board.
ditto! YOU CAN DO IT!

[thewiz]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
My luck though, I would get stuck at a table with Phil Helmuth.

Funny story - I was at a $4/$8 table online recently with Phil and he was the only one I could beat at the table....

I played with him once in Las Vegas at the series and he is an awesome live player though. His big strength is reading people, when he doesn't get on tilt that is. He intimidated me then.... I don't think he will this time though....

[thewiz]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
I have been watching the WPT as well as the Party Poker Million and have been debating on trying to get in through partypoker.com. My luck though, I would get stuck at a table with Phil Helmuth.

BTW, Phil Helmuth plays at UltimateBet.com and he isn't allowed to play in the tournaments.... something in their marketing agreement (how would it look if he won a tourney?)..... UB sponsors the Aruba event and is where I won my entry. I'm also going to WPT Reno - but I'm going to try to win my buy-in to the main event once I get there.

If you do join UB Brewmonkey (or anyone for that manner) look me up.... I'm on all the time - my name is Nut_Flush....

Also.... let me say about my last post - Phil Helmuth is a great player and by no means am I claiming to be better than him.... it was just a funny coincidence..... as they say - "even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then"

[thewiz]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Hey good luck with that! you will have to let us know when it is televised. Again, good luck!
Thanks!!! If I win I think I can afford to buy everyone a round!

[steveh]

Okay, beer - smokes - gambling... put up your old avatar, Brewmonkey, and we'll definitely set off bells and whistles with the feds! ;D

S.

[brewmonkey]

Hahaha, I do still have that avatar! :D


I just read Phil's book and my concern would be his ability to read people. However, I have seen him play live and on TV and he goes on tilt way to easy and it has cost him several titles. I would like to see Phil Ivey play, he seems almost emotionless while he is playing and has taken down some pretty big pots.

[MeridianFC]

It's always the quiet ones!

Ivey does seem like quite the monster at the table. As Howard Lederer said during the WSOP broadcasts, he could be playing any two cards at any time and he'd work 'em just like aces. Now me I can play aces like any two cards.......

[brewmonkey]

Howard is no slouch himself and his sister is a great player as well. Amazing, two pro poker players from one family.

[brewmonkey]

I watched this one on TV this year and it was an amazing game to watch indeed. For those who did not catch it here is a page about this years WSOP winner.....

http://www.poker-babes.com/bio/chris-moneymaker/

[MeridianFC]

While he did play well and you can't be a complete slouch and end up winner, Chris Moneymaker is one of the luckiest SOB's I've ever seen. He pretty consistantly pulled against-the-odds wins out of his ass. I mean everybody has to get lucky at some point during any tournament, but he had more than his share of the deck hitting him squarely in the face.

[brewmonkey]

Sometimes it pays off to NOT know the pot odds! :D

He is a good example of that and some other things that should not work in poker but do, once. Now that he is a "seasoned" player he better learn odds/pot odds and how to read players, because I am sure they all have a bead on him. Expecially since ESPN and Travel channel have the hole card cams going. Uh-Oh! No more stone cold bluffs.........

[thewiz]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
While he did play well and you can't be a complete slouch and end up winner, Chris Moneymaker is one of the luckiest SOB's I've ever seen. He pretty consistantly pulled against-the-odds wins out of his ass. I mean everybody has to get lucky at some point during any tournament, but he had more than his share of the deck hitting him squarely in the face.

The majority of the time I read comments like this about Chris Moneymaker, the Phil Ivey hand is almost always mentioned. There are a couple of things most people don't consider. #1, Phil Ivey got 'lucky' on the turn... Chris had a nearly unbeatable hand on the flop odds wise. This makes the fact that Chris got 'lucky' on the river kind of irrelevant. I think Phil Ivey played that hand poorly. #2, Chris being the chip leader has more leeway than someone short stacked like Ivey. As I like to say, Chris had at least a couple 'fouls' to give.....

Robert Varkoni (the year before winner) will forever be the worst player to ever win the WSOP main event. Moneymaker did get lucky, but it's nearly impossible to win any tourney without making even 1 mistake, and getting 'lucky' from it. Overall he played very well. Robert Varkoni won with Queen-Ten offsuit more times than probably all the players in the tournament even played it combined.

[thewiz]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Sometimes it pays off to NOT know the pot odds! :D


Pot odds are a huge factor in limit poker, but the WSOP main event is a No Limit tournament. Pot odds are seldom a huge factor in No Limit, especially tournaments. Stack size is one of the largest factors, especially at the end of the tourney.