Carbonation yeast?

[thewiz]

I visited Sierra Nevada Brewery and did the tour thing.... one thing stood out that I've never heard talked about from home brewing....I've always wondered why if SNPA (and others) is bottle conditioned - why isn't there trub in the bottom of the bottle?

Well - the tour guide was saying they send the beer through a 'chill proofing' process. After fermentation, they put the beer (ales included) into a near freezing condition for 3-5 days. This makes the remaining yeast and other sediment chill and settle out. Then, they measure the priming sugar (or whatever they use) and pitch it with new yeast prior to bottling. 12 days after bottling they send it out.

I wonder what kind of yeast they use to get the carbonation? Is there a kind of yeast that might produce more carbonation yet less undesirable by product?

This procedure seems like it would be so easy for homebrewers to do....any opinions? Anyone know anything about it?

[wortchillergoal]

I am told that they do this to help prevent harvesting of their yeast.

[mortong]

Sierra Nevada is pretty open with their information. They use Wyeast 1056 for both fermenting and carbonating.

An email to them got a quick reply that yes, it is the same yeast, and a wish of good luck to all homebrewers hoping to duplicate their beer.

After that, my love for SN has increased exponentially. They get it!

[thewiz]

Could perhaps then this process be to remove the majority of dead or suspended yeast and other sediment - meaning that only enough yeast to carbonate remains (which might not be enough to 'dirty' the bottom of the bottle)?

[sallad]

why isn't there trub in the bottom of the bottle?

if you look very closely, you can see a small amount of yeast at the bottom. much less than any of my homebrews, to be sure! actually, most BCAs have small amounts of yeast that seem less likely to pour into your glass and cloud your beer than my homebrews... maybe its just me, but i doubt it...

[chris1kanobi]

Some brewers use lager yeast because it generally has a smaller cell mass, is less likely to leave an autolyzed flavor, and flocculates and settles better than ale yeast. Also, most beers are stored and shipped at cooler lager-like temperatures. We homebrewers could adapt this process, but the work involved may not be worth the final result.

[thewiz]

Originally posted by chris1kanobi
Some brewers use lager yeast because it generally has a smaller cell mass, is less likely to leave an autolyzed flavor, and flocculates and settles better than ale yeast. Also, most beers are stored and shipped at cooler lager-like temperatures. We homebrewers could adapt this process, but the work involved may not be worth the final result.

But if I understand the whole process correctly, all we need to do is chill proof for a few days, then pitch new yeast and priming sugar.... that would be too much work? Did I miss something?

[chris1kanobi]

I guess it wouldn't be that much more work, but why? I normally cold condition both ales and lagers in the secondary. Then keg and force carbonate with co2. There is very little sediment and no need for adding another lager strain and waiting for it to settle out. If you are going for clarity, filtering and force carbonation is the way to go. If you are looking for bottle conditioned, I don't think the final result (clarity) is worth adding a different yeast strain. But obviously some brewers, and breweries do and they are more than welcome to. It's just not for me. If you do try it, please post the results so that we can learn from your experiences. :)

[fretlessman71]

So, if I get you guys right, I could chill my 2ndary down for the last few days of fermentation, filter my beer as I rack from 2ndary to bottling bucket, and repitch yeast STRICTLY for carbonation. Is this what I'm getting? And will this give me a stickier sediment cake at the bottom of my bottles?

[mortong]

Probably fret, but it looks like a lot of extra work. How many batches have you had yeast problems on?

[fretlessman71]

Just the one... it's the first batch I've made in 13 years. I guess I figured that if I could make a process out of something, eventually it wouldn't be such a chore and the beer would be better as a result. As it is, I'm letting my next batch sit in 2ndary a little longer to see what happens. Today is day 11, and I made a sweet stout using White Labs Irish Ale yeast. How long sounds right... 2 weeks? Three?

[chris1kanobi]

Are you using Irish Moss? You could also add a clarifying agent like isinglass, polyclar or gelatin to the secondary. :)

[fretlessman71]

It's for a porter. I thought "clarifying agents" were only to make your beer LOOK clearer... would this really reduce my final sediment in my bottle?

[chris1kanobi]

Sure it will. The clarifiers attract floating particles and help them drop to the bottom of the fermenter. You may also want to rack the beer again and try not to disturb the trub at the bottom of the fermenter. :)

[mortong]

Let it sit for two weeks in secondary total, then maybe another week in tertiary just to be safe.

You'll probably be fine just secondary though. See how it turns out after this batch before you take any drastic, costly, or timely steps - it sounds like it may have been just a fluke. I know my first batch (a porter) came out like old motor oil, and had lots of junk floating in the bottom. Now that I think about it, it sounds a bit like what you ended up with.

[thewiz]

Originally posted by chris1kanobi
If you are looking for bottle conditioned, I don't think the final result (clarity) is worth adding a different yeast strain.

Bottle conditioned yes, but clarity wasn't really the focus.... it was more to limit residual sediment in the bottle.... 'clarity' per se may be what ends up happening - but getting rid of sediment would be my biggest desire....

[fretlessman71]

Here's another thought... would making a starter for my yeast make a difference in the amount of sediment I get? More? Less? I'm wondering if that's part of why I never quite get down to my target FG...

[sallad]

a starter will let you start off with more yeast, so more yeast would be present in primary. however, more yeast will help you ferment more quickly and completely, so it might all drop out faster.

then, take a look at how you transfer. i use an auto-siphon that has a little cap on the bottom. the cap help keep the tubing out of the sediment, but things get stirred up even when it touches the sediment at all. therefore, i usually hold my siphon just above the level of trub. (you lose perhaps just a little more at transfer, but it helps keep it clear!) your beer should be quite clear when it goes through the tubing, and if it becomes cloudy you've stirred up some sediment.

also, if you move your carboy prior to racking/bottling, do it ahead of time. let is settle for an hour or 2 if you can before actually transfering.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by sallad
take a look at how you transfer. i use an auto-siphon that has a little cap on the bottom. the cap help keep the tubing out of the sediment, but things get stirred up even when it touches the sediment at all. therefore, i usually hold my siphon just above the level of trub. (you lose perhaps just a little more at transfer, but it helps keep it clear!) your beer should be quite clear when it goes through the tubing, and if it becomes cloudy you've stirred up some sediment.


My auto siphon is the kind where you shake the end up and down in the beer and it just GOES into the tube. I try to do this near the surface, and when I have suction I lower it into the beer. Problem is, I still have those damned white plastic buckets, so I can't see how far down it's going! Guess I'm going to have to make some sort of marking on the tube itself to know how far down the end is or something...

[brewmonkey]

Bottle conditioning sounds easy but in fact is not quite as simple as it sounds. It is not just a matter of adding yeast and a source for it to consume, it is an accurate measure of how many cells you are going to introduce and how much if any fermentable need to be added to achieve a certain volume in the bottle. If either is off you will have a wicked mess in the bottle or nothing at all.

Most brewers use a different strain then they brew with not to protect the primary strain but to allow for what Chris points out, A yeast that can floc out as well as work in a cool environment.

Bottle condition allows for several things but the biggest one IMHO is the clearing of fermentation/cellar space quickly. Every day a beer is out of its tank and in package is a day you can add a brew and drive up your production numbers. Some breweries (like Boulevard in KC) are brewing 60K+ bbls a year on small systems. Blvd uses a 35 bbl system, so they are brewing on the order of 1700 +/- times a year. They bottle condition their beer, allowing for tank space to be clear for racking the next batch.

Bottle condition also allows for a better shelf life as bottle airs are generally lower then in beer carbonated then filled. Less oxidation, and again IMHO a better tasting beer.

[Richard English]

I don't know what strain they use, but Goose Island BCAs have very little sediment. If clarity's important then it might be worthwhile harvesting some of their yeast.