Conical fermenter

[ray m]

The current object of my desire is a stainless conical fermenter from morebeer.com------the 7.1 gallon standard model for $545.00. I figure it would:

a) just be frigging cool

b) be much easier to clean than those damned glass carboys (my back is no where near what it used to be)

c) just be frigging cool

d) would be very nice not to have to worry about racking the beer to a secondary anymore---just dump the yeast trub out the bottom

e) just be, uh, you know, frigging cool to have

However, my wife is a pseudo-religious type person who very, very seldom imbibes (maybe a wine cooler or 2 a couple times a year). She merely tolerates my hobby as one who dabbles in the fermentation sciences. I devised a (what I think) a very reasonable (and somewhat devious) proposal to get my hands on one of these babies. I told her that, instead of getting the usual array of gifts from everyone at Xmas, everyone could make a small (but bigger is always appreciated) charitable donation to my cause. I even showed her the product, its cool features, and stressed the conical as a REPLACEMENT instead of an ADDITION. She replied with "uh.......no". I guess she thought that, upon first seeing the item, that it was some huge 500 barrel monster that was going to take up the entire basement. She then said that our home is not a brewery, and that I have enough "crap" to make my "baby beers".

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO......(insert mad smiley with steam coming out of both ears).

Water off a duck's back-----but I need to devise plans b, c, d, & e. I need help from you, my friends!!

pray for me......I know my wife's not hahahahahahahahahahaha:(

[brewmonkey]

Explain to her that since this is a stainless conical you will save money on your hobby over the long run.

1- It has a racking arm so you will be able to harvest yeast and repitch healthy viable yeast. 1 Vial will now last several batches, no more propping up and buying for every batch you make. You should be able to easily go to 3 or 4 generations of yeast if you take care of it.

2- As it is stainless and not glass so it will not break and it is not plastic that will have to be replaced when it gets scratched or broken.

3- It is stainless and cleaning and sanitizing is MUCH easier then glass or plastic IMHO.

4- Since it is a Uni-Tank you will have to spend less time cleaning and racking beer from one carboy to another. The design of the tank allows for primary and secondary all in one tank. You can blow down the yeast as it ferments allowing it to remain in one location.

5- As you will not have to move beer more often you will have MORE time to spend with her and you will be saving money on the costly chemicals we need for our hobby.

6- This tank will pay for itself within 2-3 years and will last well beyond that.

7- Everyone who is anyone has one! :D

8- If all else fails Pout and stomp your feet until she gives in.

[mmmBeer...]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
8- If all else fails Pout and stomp your feet until she gives in.

I wish this worked with my wife! I usually have to show her the cost benefit of what I am buying...

[paul84043]

THe cost of the 7 gallon one seems steep, I seem to recall lusting after a 12 gal for about the same amount.

All other things being equal, I'd rather be able to brew 10 gal batches.....

I have actually been making plans to build a stainless conical, but it may get put on hold for a few years until the in-laws retire and move away....(the religious thing you mentioned in the original post....)

[ray m]

Originally posted by paul84043:
_____________________________________
THe cost of the 7 gallon one seems steep, I seem to recall lusting after a 12 gal for about the same amount.

All other things being equal, I'd rather be able to brew 10 gal batches.....

I have actually been making plans to build a stainless conical, but it may get put on hold for a few years until the in-laws retire and move away....(the religious thing you mentioned in the original post....)
_____________________________________

Ah, yes, the religious thing.........I am assuming you mean that the in-laws live in the same metro area as you, NOT the same house, yes?? My in-laws are pretty religious folks---go to church twice on Sunday, once on Wednesday, etc., etc., etc. I don't let that stop me from brewing, though---they don't seem to let it concern them either way. However, I respect your position nonetheless---sounds like your in-laws merely tolerate your passion as well. Anyhoo....you are right about the 12 gal. vs. 7 gal. price---the 12 gal. one is only $50 more. My problem is twofold: storage space (for extra bottles & kegs that an additional 5 gal. would create), and I tend to start getting tired of my brews by the time I get into my 5th gallon. So, when I am at that point, I am more than ready to move on to another "flavor".

Drink hearty!!! Ray

[croc4]

Ray,

I have the 12 gal stainless, I went with this over the 7gal because

1. cost between the two was small
2. If I chose to do a 10gal batch, I could. But I can still run 5 gal batches.

I personally like to have a few options, if you never use it great, but if at some point in the future you wanted to do a 10gal batch your kind of stuck.


On the size, it is actually not that big, when I got mine, I first thought it was too small for 10gal.

But either way, if you do get one you'll really enjoy it. Best of luck
________
SweetAngel live (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/SweetAngel)

[DreamWeaver]

I was just about to ask a similar question/make observation about conicals in the yeast section. I too wanted a conical because it seemed so ... well, friggin cool. So I've been doin some beer research. I mean spend more $$$ on equipment, your beer has to be better, right? OK, I noticed that fermentation took longer in my 6 gal carboy than my not so tall, big-fat round 6.5 gal primary bucket and was wondering if it was just how far the yeast had to drop to sediment? I also just read that most large brewerys use conicals for lager beers & shorter squared primarys for ale. Then I talked to some local homebrewers that had "used conicals" for sale and they pointed out that the negative side to conicals was that the bottom spout/valve often plugged up and that when either valve was opened, that it allowed air to displace the beer or sediment causing a blub-blub of air (like a water cooler) to go back through the beer and they would cringe thinking about oxidation. :eek: Well, killed that sale. Keep in mind I am still wet with beer behind the ears but just some yeast for thought. Oh ye of little faith... Keep us posted!

[ray m]

Thank you for the input, croc.....It certainly does make sense to just go ahead and spend the extra $$ (what's $50 more when you're spending $500+ anyway?).

One way or the other, I'm gonna get one---probably toward the end of the year, but it'll happen.

Sometimes, guys, ya just gotta hang your balls out & risk pissin' off the wife......

[mortong]

Does anyone have an answer to the problem of oxidation with the air bubbling up into the conical? I was considering the idea, but that is one of my major concerns.

[evilredlight]

Is the conical sealed or open at the top?
If it were closed then yes you would get the glub glub as air would have to replace the liquid that is drained off.
if you opened a vent at the top of the conical you could drain off as much liquid as you need to and you would never get a glub glub of air from the bottom valve!

[paul84043]

I have two plastic conicals that I have used for about a year now.
I have to attach a fitting to the bottom that I can hook a piece of 3/4" tygon to, ( I use the PVC fittings that you can get at Home Depot) I backfill the tubing as completely as I possibly can with sanitizer and keep the other end dunked into a bowl or pan of sanitizer. Then, when you go to bleed off the trub, it may bubble a tiny bit initially, but as log as you keep the hose full of sanitizer and trub it's fine. The problem occurrs whan you have a large amount of air in the hose that overpowers the force of the trub pushing through the hose.

I had a "big bubble" once that instantly foamed an entire gallon of beer and blew the lid sky high.
The beer actually turned out fine though.

It's also critical to sanitize the entire fitting inside and out before assembly, and before putting the tubing on and filling it. I would worry about more than just oxidation if I shot a big bubble through my beer after only a couple days of fermentation.
I bleed off a bit of trub after three or four days, then a bit every couple days after that. It takes a while for the trub to settle back into the bottom of the cone, so you try not to drain off too much, otherwise you're wasting beer. If you overfill the same as you would a carboy to allow for waste, things work out just fine, also, If you wait too long, the trub plugs the bottom hole and is difficult to get started, I have had to go as far as poking a sanitized hanger down through it to get things moving.

You definitely want to strain the hops and protein out when using a conical to minimize the "stuff" you have to drain out. Hops plug up the bottom hole really well.

When I bottled my first few batches through the bottom, (which works fine), I ended up with alot of sediment in the bottles,
I found that I got considerably less if I used the racking port and transferred into a bottling bucket before (while) mixing in the priming sugar. It's very difficult to bleed off all of the trub, so if you mix in your priming sugar in the conical itself, you stir whatever is left into suspension.

It sounds like alot of trouble, but it's really no big deal, once you've done it a few times it takes only minutes every few days and eliminates the 30 minute transfer step that you do using carboys.

I also forgot to mention, whenever you're draining anything off, pop the lid a bit to allow air in the top. Any time you take the lid off, sanitize it before replacing it.

[ray m]

Paul...the plastic conicals you speak of...I know they exist, and I'm all for saving $$, but:

a) where can they be obtained, and how much do they cost?

b) is the "plastic = oxygen bleed through over a long period of time" issue a major concern with the plastic conicals? I plan on to continue to brew only ales, with avg, primary of 1 week and avg. 2ndary @ 10 days;

c) what other accessories need to be purchased with the plastic conicals so they function like the high-end stainless ones i.e., the dump port (or do they come with everything you need)?

d) do you have any complaints; are they worth the switch to you? (I'm gettin' tired of cleaning & rinsing awkward carboys)

Thanks for any advice....................Ray

Edit.....Paul, I found these at morebeer.com. Is the "V-vessel" the one you have?? If so, it doesn't look like there is a lot of headspace room given it's published 5.5 to 6 gallon capacity. Do you have a problem with headspace & foaming @ high krausen??

[paul84043]

I don't have the "V" Vessel, I agree it seems a bit tight on top, plus cleaning assess looks like a problem, and you pretty much "have" to hang it somewhere, which brings all kinds of complications to mind....

I have the "Mini Brew, Affordable conical fermentor", I have seen them all over the place, plus they can be purchased directly from the manufacturer, the "Hobby Beverage Manufacturing Company".
These are 6.5 gallons and have plenty of headspace for all but the biggest beers. My barleywine blew the top off and went completely crazy in one of these, I purchased the 1" Tygon blowoff tubing after that small disaster.

They are much easier to fill, but still just as akward to move as a carboy.

They usually come in several different configurations, one without a racking port, that can be purchased separately and installed by drilling a hole in the mounting spot. You can purchase them with the port already installed, and you can get them in 6.5 gal (120$)
8 gal, why, I do not know....(150$) 15 gal (225$), 25gal (350$), 40gal (425$).
Prices vary quite a bit with retailer.

As for it's functionality...
I don't buy the oxygen bleedthrough story. I'm sure that it will if left long enough, but the short timeframe that you leave beer in it fermenting, I can't even begin to believe that it's an issue. I have never had any problems with mine at all. Plus almost the entire time it's fermenting, it's actually under pressure, if anything, you'll be driving CO2 OUT, not pulling O2 IN.

The biggest probem I encountered is getting the smell out from the previous batch. I use a mild bleach solution and let it soak for a day, but there is still some smell left.
I have never detected a previous batch in any of my beers though.

THe other problem is that, plastic is NOT going to last forever. It will get scratched or crack eventually. It may take 5 years, it may take 10. It all depends on how you take care of it and where you store it when not in use.

It really depends on you, how much of a gadget freak you are. There are lots of people that contend that they would never spend 120$ on a plastic conical that's not going to last "forever" when carboys are so cheap.

I like mine, but I also like the simplicity and peace of mind that a glass carboy gives you.
I use them both equally. If I had the money, I would probably spring for one (Not two again), but if things are tight, there's really no justification for the extra expense. It doesn't make better beer and the time investment is pretty much the same, it's just more spread out with the conical vs the carboy.

The ultimate would be a stainless conical, which I am working towards.

[Payson]

I use the "Vessel" as of Christmas. The headspace does seem to be a little lacking but nothing a blow off tube won't correct. I had a high gravity beer that starting foaming the airlock so I simply replaced it with a tube. No problem. I can't speak regarding it with too much experience yet but I must say it seems well constructed and handy. The bulb at the bottom is slowy filling with dead yeast so it seems to be serving its purpose. I'll keep you posted regarding the "glug" of air, ease of use, etc...

[ray m]

Thank you very much, Paul & Payson, for your insights. I'll let all you guys know what I decide.

Paul, when you said "...if things are tight, there's really no justification for the extra expense", did you mean extra expense of plastic conical vs. glass carboy, or stainless conical vs. plastic conical?? Just curious.:)

[denver brewhoo]

ray m---just to muddy the waters even further, here's a link to the website of US Plastic. In a discussion of sanitary quick disconnect fittings on another website, somebody posted a link to the home page, and there was a picture of what looked like a perfect conical fermenter, sold as a plastic chemical tank, for like 50 bucks; with stand it's about a hundred (the minibrew one referenced above is $225). I bought one of these and am expecting it this week. With even food grade plastic fittings (a reducer for the dump valve; a bulkhead for a racking port; a bulkhead for the top to install blow-ooff), and ball valves from home depot or whereever, this thing is gonna come in at about $135.

This is MDPE instead of HDPE---but another guy that got one said it's actually pretty heavy duty and the specs at least convinced him (an engineer) that it was equally impervious to oxidation for our purposes...

You might want to give this a try: www.usplastic.com

there's a picture of the tanks on the homepage, but they move it around so if I say "bottom right" sure enough it'll be top left when you click on to it.

[paul84043]

Ray, I guess it all depends on your personal definition of tight finances.. to me, I haven't been able to swing a stainless conical yet, though I am considering taking denver brewhoo's approach and building one. I could save several hundred dollars on the stainless model.
I looked into making my own plastic conical, but the savings wasn't enough to sway me from the instant gratification of the off the shelf model...

[mortong]

How viable is this option?

click (http://www.morebeer.com/index.html?page=detail.php3&pid=FE550)

At 24.50 the price is right if you've got the carboys already.

[paul84043]

There have been several threads on this contraption, but nobody that comes to mind that has actually used it.
The single largest "flaw" that I see personally is that there is nowhere to vent, either for co2, or for air to bleed in when you "dump" the trub. THe only option is to bubble it up through the beer, which is a bad idea no matter how you slice it.

[ray m]

Thanks again, guys, for additonal insight & thoughts. Mortong, I thought I read in this community several months ago (POSSIBLY written by ToneyC) regarding the Fermentap. I read that a real big complaint with these is that with a carboy, a lot of the yeast settles onto the shoulder, and it ends up being a real bitch to clean when it comes time to do so.

Denver---I tried your link, but couldn't find what you were talking about. It's late, tho.

[danno]

mortong: the Fementap has been dissed by several people previously. Main reason, the walls of your carboy aren't steep enough for the yeast to settle, it will stick to the walls of your carboy, rendering it mostly useless....

another place to look for your stainless steel conical, http://www.toledometalspinning.com/ email them for a quote, I did a year ago or so, it was substantially less then b3's...

[fuji6100]

I have the same plastic conical that paul has, and I honestly haven't used it much. It was a cool addition at first, but lately I've gone back to my carboys, as I'm one of those guys that likes to "look in' on my beer once in a while. It doesn't seem to save me much time, and I had all kinds of plans of harvesting yeast to re-pitch, but I just don't brew/drink enough to do several batches back to back to back where it would be economical. Basically, it is just another fermenter that I use, mostly for lighter, quicker ales.

I just had to add my 2 cents that oxydation THROUGH the plastic isn't an issue. It is pretty thick stuff, and I honestly believe that the few molecules that might filter in over a month or three could NEVER be as much as is introduced during a single racking of a beer, no matter how gently you rack.

[Payson]

I have the fermentap and would gladly sell it to you!:D I've used it once, the batch was contaminated, and it lost alot of beer. In theory it's great, in practice it is unuseable.

[denver brewhoo]

Ray-- I just hit the link again, and there is a picture of the plastic "mix tanks" at the bottom of the page, below the blue box titled "shop by category", below the box with a picture of the bucket and the heading "Buckets, buckets, buckets", and above the address for USPlastics...there is a picture of two different sized plastic tanks sitting on stands, with conical bottoms, and the box is titled "tanks, tanks, tanks"---you didn't see that? They don't sell these as fermentors, we just figured they'd work as such---they sell them as "mix tanks".

If you click on the picture of the tank it takes you to a page with, surprise, another picture of tanks and a whole list of tanks and prices....our tank is the first one listed, item #8551....$54.99. Note that the conical section is a 60 degree slope, which is the same as the stainless ones and the plastic minibrew--and this is the reason the fermentap doesn't work, because the shoulders are insufficiently sloped for the yeast to fall down, plus the venting problem referenced above.

You can also just type in 8551 in the search box and I think it will takr you where you need to go....

[ray m]

Thank you, Denver-----yeah, I saw them, but I guess I was looking for something a little more "homebrew ready", plus I was extremely tired from a long work day.

I really appreciate the response all of you gave to this thread. I have looked at all the suggestions, and I decided to go with the V-vessel. I liked the fact that it pretty much comes with everything needed, including the yeast collection vessel. Since I really don't brew a lot of big beers & wheats, this vessel should be fine for the average strength beers I mainly brew. I will keep my glass carboys for the times when I get the itch to brew beers that are gonna produce tons of krausen.

I wish, though, that I could buy a stainless. I can always upgrade in 6 years & buy myself a nice retirement present (with a brewsculpture!).

If all goes right, I will hopefully receive my new purchase next week, and plan to brew a Conniston Bluebird bitter clone the Monday after that. I'll be sure to let you guys know how it performs.

Drink hearty!!! Ray

[paul84043]

I think that you'll enjoy your new toy, they are interesting and if it makes brewing more fun, then it can't possibly be bad now can it?

Keep us posted on your progress.

:D

[denver brewhoo]

hey Ray--if you see this, could you post a recipe? The way chaz raves about this stuff, i gotta have one, and I haven't seen any around here so I'm gonna have to make it myself.

[ray m]

Absolutely, Denver....I am typing this at work right now, so either tonight or tomorrow morning I'll post it for you.:)

[NewBrewMeister]

In biblical times, I believe that brewers used 7.1 gallon standard model stainless conical fermenters to make wine and beer. (see if she'll fall for that)....hah

Good luck !

[ray m]

Denverbrew'.........sorry this took an extra coupla days. This is the Conniston recipe I plan to use (for a 5 gal. batch):

Steep, in 1 gal. or so of 155* H20 for 30 min.:
--7 oz. 55L british crystal
--4 oz. torrified wheat
--1/2 oz. British roasted barley

Remove grains, bring to boil, remove from heat, add:
--5 lb. extra light DME
--7.8 AAU Challenger hops

Add water to bring volume to 2.5 gallons, boil 45 min., add:
--1/4 oz. Challenger hops
--1/4 oz. Kent Golding hops
--1 tsp Irish Moss

Boil 13 min. then add 1/2 oz. Challenger hops. Boil another 2 min., remove all hops, cool to yeast pitching temp. The book says use either Wyeast 1968 London ESB or 1187 Ringwood Ale. I'm gonna use White Labs London Ale (WLP013(?)).

If brewing all grain, mash 7.5 lbs. Maris Otter Pale malt & the specialty grains at 150* for 90 min. Upon boil add 6.5 AAU Challenger instead of 7.8 AAU. Everything else stays the same.

Prime with 1-1/4 cups extra light DME