Melonoidins

[MeridianFC]

I was actually moved to get off my ass and look up something Steveh talked about in the Aldaris Porteris discussion (right down yonder). Ok, I'm still sitting on my ass, but I did hit some keys on the aul' keyboard. In discussing Munich/Bavarian beers he mentioned melonoidins (did I spell that right), so I had a wee google to see what I could on this subject. I found this:

http://hbd.org/mbas/nov98.html

Certain malts, like Munich and aromatic malts, are high in toasty, malty-tasting melanoidins

Which was informative. Bavarian beer in gerneral and Munich beers in particular definitely have a specific taste like no other. The sweet, almost perfumy malt profile is heavenly, owing probably to the monks hotline to the Big Man Upstairs. I'm having a fit thinking about it even now. I do notice that there is some element of this that weakens when the beer travels. While present it is always greatly diminished in the bottled beers we get here (Paulaner, Spaten, Hacker-Pschorr, Augustiner, Ayinger, etc.).

BTW is it just me or has Spaten really lost the plot? It seems a pale shadow if it's former self (though I'm a confirmed Andechser or Augustiner man).

Is it possible to accurately re-create these flavors in domiestically kilned malt?

Are there any non-Bavarian beers that have this taste? I recall Christofel Robertus had something of it, but I haven't seen a bottle in forever.

Didja ever notice how hard it is to put your posts in the correct category here on realbeer? It seems like just about every post could be in 3-4 different categories.

I'm rambling again.

[brewmonkey]

There is also a malt from Weyermann's called Melanoidin Malt. It is a great malt that adds some complexity to the beer.

[steveh]

I pulled the info on melanoidins from Korzonas' Homebrewing, a great reference book.

Originally posted by MeridianFC
The sweet, almost perfumy malt profile is heavenly,

I think that the "perfumy" aspect comes from the nice balance of the noble hops with the malt. If you work at it, you can divide the subtle, toasty caramal aroma from the Hallertauer or tettnanger, but the Munich brewers do such a great job of balancing that it's difficult - and delicious.

BTW is it just me or has Spaten really lost the plot? It seems a pale shadow if it's former self (though I'm a confirmed Andechser or Augustiner man).

I have to agree that the Spaten Helles (at least the import) seems to have lightened in body and flavor over the years, but I'd like to try an experiment with filling up a full liter some time to see if the full mass (pun intended) of quantity is a better representative of the beer. I also find it difficult to pick a "best" between the Munich Helles'. They are all so much cousins, and I wouldn't turn any of them down. However, Augustiner is far overpriced in the U.S., at least in the Chicago area.

As a side, I think Spaten still does a great job with their Oktoberfest - far and away my favorite, and full of the melanoidin flavor.

Is it possible to accurately re-create these flavors in domiestically kilned malt?

I once read an interview with brewmaster Kirby Nelson of Capital Brewing, Wisconsin, where he was discussing his blonde and dark bock seasonal beers. He had created the recipes after traveling Germany and, while he thought his beers were good, they didn't quite taste like the Bavarian beers, as he'd wanted to recreate, and I tend to agree with both assessments. His revelation, and his own personal "duh" to himself, was realizing that he had used only domestic malts in the beers, not imported Munich or Bavarian malts. Although, he also realized that using a majority of these malts would dictate a higher price on a six-pack of his beers, so he resigned himself to being happy with what he'd created - and they are definitely great beers.

Are there any non-Bavarian beers that have this taste? I recall Christofel Robertus had something of it, but I haven't seen a bottle in forever.

Well, there are the Bohemian beers that definitely have the character. And, believe it or not, Beck's seems to be moving more in a Bavarian flavored direction, away from the Heineken character it seemed to have. Not familiar with the CR.

Didja ever notice how hard it is to put your posts in the correct category here on realbeer? It seems like just about every post could be in 3-4 different categories.

Yep. ;)

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
There is also a malt from Weyermann's called Melanoidin Malt. It is a great malt that adds some complexity to the beer.

Brew, is the Weyermann's significantly more expensive than the domestic malts like Schreier or Briess?

S.

[brewmonkey]

Weyermanns Pilsner malt runs about 40 cents per pound and Briess is about 35 cents per pound. It is difficult to say all across the board though because some specialty malts are cheaper through European maltsters then they are through an American one.

I am all across the board with previous orders as I would order for a recipe rather then just 1 kind of base malt for all beers. My Pils uses Briess Pilsner (can't be beat for an American Pils at .9L) but all my English Ales are 100% Baird etc....

I was deeply saddened when DWC decided to close up shop. :(

[steveh]

Originally posted by steveh
I have to agree that the Spaten Helles (at least the import) seems to have lightened in body and flavor over the years, but I'd like to try an experiment with filling up a full liter some time to see if the full mass (pun intended) of quantity is a better representative of the beer.

No sooner do I make this comment, than I cap a new bottle of Spaten Helles and find it a pleasingly malty, melanoidin-full, smooth lager with a nice hop balance. Reminiscent of the beer I always remembered - and no, I only poured a single bottle into a tall, German 1/2 liter glass.

Maybe because I hadn't had the beer in a while and my taste buds were fresh? Don't know, but my appreciation has been reawakened.

S.

[MeridianFC]

I'll have to grab another bottle myself, though the last time I did I was pretty disappointed. Paulaner seems to have stayed strong to me, but who knows.

I was out at the Old Dominion Brewing Co. the other day and the had a pallet full of Weyerman's melanoidin malt. I asked if I could take a bag home, but they rightly declined.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
...they had a pallet full of Weyerman's melanoidin malt. I asked if I could take a bag home, but they rightly declined.

LOL! Okay, that one got me - send some my way too! ;)

S.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
I was actually moved to get off my ass and look up something Steveh talked about in the Aldaris Porteris discussion (right down yonder). Ok, I'm still sitting on my ass, but I did hit some keys on the aul' keyboard. In discussing Munich/Bavarian beers he mentioned melonoidins (did I spell that right), so I had a wee google to see what I could on this subject. I found this:

http://hbd.org/mbas/nov98.html



Which was informative. Bavarian beer in gerneral and Munich beers in particular definitely have a specific taste like no other. The sweet, almost perfumy malt profile is heavenly, owing probably to the monks hotline to the Big Man Upstairs. I'm having a fit thinking about it even now. I do notice that there is some element of this that weakens when the beer travels. While present it is always greatly diminished in the bottled beers we get here (Paulaner, Spaten, Hacker-Pschorr, Augustiner, Ayinger, etc.).

BTW is it just me or has Spaten really lost the plot? It seems a pale shadow if it's former self (though I'm a confirmed Andechser or Augustiner man).

Is it possible to accurately re-create these flavors in domiestically kilned malt?

Are there any non-Bavarian beers that have this taste? I recall Christofel Robertus had something of it, but I haven't seen a bottle in forever.

Didja ever notice how hard it is to put your posts in the correct category here on realbeer? It seems like just about every post could be in 3-4 different categories.

I'm rambling again.

I remember the Christofel. Came in the handled bottles now used as growlers by many brewpubs. It indeed was a fine beer. I can't remember when I last saw it either. Shame