Keg vs, Can

[wortchillergoal]

Here is something I had not given thought to before but now the question has been asked of me. Why do we shun beer in a can when kegs are really just a large can?

[toneyc]

Kegs are stainless steel, cans are aluminum. Blind tastes tests prove that stainless tastes better.

:)
Toney.

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by toneyc
Kegs are stainless steel, cans are aluminum. Blind tastes tests prove that stainless tastes better.

:)
Toney.

Are you sure they are stainless? They do not look like it to me plus I think they would be even heavier.

[fretlessman71]

My guess is that the beer to metal ratio (inner surface area) is much higher in a keg than it is in a can, and therefore the keg will have less of a metallic taste. Also the cans have probably been mishandled along the way to their final destination at the liquor store.... maybe. I've had Dale's Pale Ale from CO in a can, and yes, I could taste the can. Still wasn't bad, though.

[steveh]

Originally posted by wortchillergoal
Are you sure they are stainless? They do not look like it to me plus I think they would be even heavier.

Some of the outside parts might be aluminum, but the insides - the surfaces the beer touch - are stainless steel. A half barrel, with the top cut off just right, makes a great boil kettle for home-brewing.

S.

[davesarman]

Plus, keg beer is not pasteurized, most canned beer is.

[fretlessman71]

Anyone old enough to know if the old "tin" cans kept beer tasting better? Or was american beer good enough back then to be able to notice a difference between the two? (I think most microbreweries came out well after the switch to aluminum.)

[Brownbeard]

I only get canned beer when fishing. I know people keep telling me that I should take bottles anyway, I am not willing to deal with the extra hassle.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by steveh
Some of the outside parts might be aluminum, but the insides - the surfaces the beer touch - are stainless steel. A half barrel, with the top cut off just right, makes a great boil kettle for home-brewing.

S.

Steve... you're the tops; you're the tower of Pisa! Look here... (http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/memberlist.php?s=&what=topposters&perpage=10)

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by davesarman
Plus, keg beer is not pasteurized, most canned beer is.

Not true. Some brewers do pasteurize in the keg, for the same reasons they do in cans.


Are you sure they are stainless? They do not look like it to me plus I think they would be even heavier.

Trust me, after 5 years of running a brewery that has 200+ kegs in the inventory they are stainless, while there are some kegs that are not all stainless.

The reason they are stainless on the inside at a minimum is do to the cleaning they must go through after each use. The caustic used to clean them would eat aluminum up in no time as would the acid used to remove any stone that deposits on the keg.

How heavy do you think an empty keg is? Most of the ones in our inventory came in easily at 22+lbs (11 kilos) and the rubber coated bastards at 30+.(14 kilos) A full keg of beer will usually tip the scales right around the 170lb mark or 73 kilos.

[Richard English]

Of course, in the UK there are still a few breweries that avoid the whole problem of metallic contamination by using wooden casks. Inded, there is a society for the preservation of beers from wooden casks. See here http://www.spbw.com/.

Also (maybe Summer can confirm) beer is still still brewed in the wood in Finland according to this site http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/styles/6_4style.html

[steveh]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Steve... you're the tops; you're the tower of Pisa! Look here... (http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/memberlist.php?s=&what=topposters&perpage=10)

Jeez, they actually track that? Just what I need, further proof that I need to get a life! :P

S.

[Summer]

Originally posted by Richard English
Also (maybe Summer can confirm) beer is still still brewed in the wood in Finland according to this site http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/styles/6_4style.html

Confirmed!!:) More info of Sahti (Finnish traditional style beer) on this site: http://www.beerhunter.com/documents/19133-000055.html

J.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by Brownbeard
I only get canned beer when fishing. I know people keep telling me that I should take bottles anyway, I am not willing to deal with the extra hassle.

Brownbeard - I'm surprised that you still buy beer to go fishing since you've started brewing. I figured you would've come up with some system to carry your own brew with you by now.

[Tweek]

I have found that filling water bottles, the plastic screw kind, is good for fishing trips. I fill em up from a keg and they stay carbonated until they are gone.

[Saint Patrick]

wortchillergoal, check your PM.

[danno]

Originally posted by Tweek
I have found that filling water bottles, the plastic screw kind, is good for fishing trips. I fill em up from a keg and they stay carbonated until they are gone.

two liter pop bottles work just as well, and I think they're easier to fill...

[Brownbeard]

Actually, with my last batch, I filled a 20oz soda bottle, to check for carbonation and so I could see the color and clarity of the beer. But, I can see where this will be a handy thing once summer hits and fishing is in full swing. I do like Leinenkugel's. I think it is a good example of an American Lager. It is still not available in cans in Iowa. So, I get some when I go up to MN. But this summer, I am gonna try to take the homebrew exclusively.

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by brewmonkey


How heavy do you think an empty keg is? Most of the ones in our inventory came in easily at 22+lbs (11 kilos) and the rubber coated bastards at 30+.(14 kilos) A full keg of beer will usually tip the scales right around the 170lb mark or 73 kilos.

I have handled alot of stainless reastaurant equipment in my time. I would have thought that an empty keg of all stainless would weigh more than 22 lbs.. I should not be surpised at the kegs being 2 ply if you will as I know some cookware is made of two different metals. I would also guess that the stainless I am used to is a heavier guage than what is probably on the inside of a keg, though it is probably not a light guage either.

[brewmonkey]

It depends on what the chimbs are made of. Some have aluminum some don't, My lighter ones were at 22lbs and they were the "miller" style with the aluminum crap all over them. Most of the inventory was from Spartenburg TN and nice and solid American made kegs.

Keg problem was solved though about 2 years ago when we installed our serving tanks, and my usage of kegs dropped down to an occassional batch here or there. I like the tanks better, while they were a bitch to install (we had to get them off the ground and up 1 flight into the icehouse), they never had to be moved again.

[bigmf]

I have to chime in here on the fishing trip stuff. It would work well with pop bottles filled from a keg. Water bottles might not handle the pressure and bottle conditioned bottles would have all the sediment mixed in by the time you drank it and you'd have to bring along some sort of drinking vessel.

I only drink from a can on the golf course. You can't bring your own in so you have to buy theirs.:(

[Tweek]

as far as not being able to bring in your own beer to the golf course, what you need to do is get a cooler and put a medical sticker on it. When they ask you whats in the cooler tell them its medication. Which on the golf course isnt that far from the truth!

[Richard English]

Quote "...bottle conditioned bottles would have all the sediment mixed in by the time you drank it and you'd have to bring along some sort of drinking vessel..."

And what, pray, is wrong with bringing some sort of drinking vessel? You manage to bring half a hundredweight of golf clubs - a single tankard isn't going to cause much problem!

And as for the sediment - it's only yeast and will not affect the flavour of the drink at all. I always drink the sediment from BCAs and it's never done me any harm.

[bigmf]

Originally posted by Richard English
And what, pray, is wrong with bringing some sort of drinking vessel? You manage to bring half a hundredweight of golf clubs - a single tankard isn't going to cause much problem!

If you put glass in your golf bag or tackle box it is likely to get broken. If you use plastic you might as well drink out of the aforementioned plastic bottles. Glass and fishing or golfing do not mix well.

The better thing to do I would suggest, if the canned beers are no good for you, wait and have something you prefer after the golfing or fishing.

Also some people have a lower tolerance for yeast in their diet. Look up the disease called Candida for more details.

M.

[Richard English]

Quote "...If you put glass in your golf bag or tackle box it is likely to get broken..."

I would prefer to drink out of a drinking vessel, even a plastic one, than to drink out of a bottle or can. However, what I normally drink ou of at home is a one-pint pewter tankard. Not unbreakable but certainly shatterproof.

I do not know enough about Candida to deny what you say but suggest that the ingestion of brewer's yeast is unlikely to affect those organs that are normally attacked by Candida - a yeast, I agree, but not the same kind of yeast at all. There are probably as many kinds of yeast as there are kinds of bacteria and to lump them all together would be unwise.

Most chemists in England sell yeast tablets (simply a pellet of dried yeast) as a diet supplement and I have never heard of any ill effects from eating them - or of drinking brewer's yeast for that matter.

[bigmf]

Candida Albicans was just one example. I do not have the problem but a person I know does. Any yeast ingestion is strongly discouraged by the doctors as it will help nourish the Candida yeast that attacks the body.

I personally will have some problems best left unmentioned if I drink too much brewers yeast.

M.

[bigmf]

Also, I think that everyone is different. Although you would rather drink out of a plastic cup while fishing, some of us might take the convenience of drinking out of a can to outweigh the loss of taste on those rare occasions where we can't have our own homebrew, or a nice pint of the local pub's best cask conditioned ale. (I threw that last bit in just for you Richard):D

M.

[hopjack13]

i thought yeast had vitamin b ? isn't that good for you?:p

[bigmf]

Yes it has a lot of vitamin B complex in it.

It also has a lot of vitamin F if you know what I mean.:eek:

M.

[chazwicke]

A lot of people take brewers yeast as a supplement.

Now back to cans.

The first beer in cans was in 1935. Kruger beer was test marketed in Richmond, VA. The cans were not tin they were three piece steel. Aluminum cans came along in the early 1960s and shortly thereafter came the two piece extruded steel and aluminum cans. The old steel cans had a silicone or some sort of lining to keep the beer from contact with the metal. I have seen evidence of this in old beer cans in collections. There sometimes is a dried out, peeling film inside them. The glass bottle manufacturers are said to have come up with the story that beer tastes funny in cans. It may be psychological but I do not really like beer from cans. (The Guinness and Abbot Ale widget cans excepted). I do love beer from firkins though!

[hopjack13]

my wife was reading me these beer facts thigs in a mr beer book this weekend and they said that beer came in six packs because back in the day someone decided that that was all a house wife could comfortably carry home from the store...or something like that....anyway i thought it was interesting.
cheers

[chazwicke]

A really good wife would carry more than that. And she would open it for you and bring it to you while you were sitting in your Lazyboy watching TV. A really good wife would do that. :D

[hopjack13]

hey i got one of those! my wife brought me home a 3litre of double bastard and a rochefort 10! quality is everything.

[Summer]

Originally posted by chazwicke
A really good wife would carry more than that. And she would open it for you and bring it to you while you were sitting in your Lazyboy watching TV. A really good wife would do that.

I don't think I'll ever be a really good wife. But a husband like that would be really nice ;)

J.

[wortchillergoal]

My wife kinda does that, only when I get the beer it is half gone.

[hopjack13]

at least you get half, my wife has left me dry more then once :(

[chazwicke]

My wife is one of the good ones.

[hopjack13]

thats right you said she doesn't drink but supports your hobbie. must be nice to never have to worry about a driver......
i can't wait till my oldest is able to drive ;)

[fretlessman71]

The worst part for my wife re my hobby is the cases of bottles laying ALL OVER THE PLACE! I'm not the neatest person in the world, and all this stuff in a 2 bedroom apt. makes things a little cramped....

[Stodbrew]

My wife is definitely one of the good ones, too:D

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by Stodbrew
My wife is definitely one of the good ones, too:D

I still count my wife as one of the good ones. There are not alot of women who will drink barleywine with you like mine.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Summer
I don't think I'll ever be a really good wife. But a husband like that would be really nice.

Just as everything in life, you get what you give! :)

S.

[brewmonkey]

My wife loves her beer as much as I do. She has brought me back beers from all of her business trips.

[mmmBeer...]

My wife loves her beer too…but it is my job to make and pour the beer (kinda like the cooking). I don’t think she even knows how the cobra heads on the kegs work!

Although this could also be my fault…in that I am told that I am territorial about certain things…like the cooking :)

[hopjack13]

sounds like my wife with the esspresso machine. she loves em but never makes them......somehow that became my job....? and i bought the set up for her for mothersday cuz i know she loves coffe.......:confused:

[chazwicke]

I think it is all a matter of proper training. Just kidding!

[hopjack13]

lmao...i think your right!;)

[steveh]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I think it is all a matter of proper training. Just kidding!

And how long you been married, Chaz? Not counting tomorrow...
;)

S.

[chazwicke]

It's my way or the highway when it comes to wives but please, please, please don't tell mine I said that! :D

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by steveh
And how long you been married, Chaz? Not counting tomorrow...
;)

S.

Actually we celebrated 10 years last Thanksgiving Day. and we were together for 4 before that. ( I am really lucky to have her and don't tell her that either!)

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by hopjack13
sounds like my wife with the esspresso machine. she loves em but never makes them......somehow that became my job....? and i bought the set up for her for mothersday cuz i know she loves coffe......

Never buy your mate a gift that requires them to work at something unless you know they enjoy the work as well! To some, it's like buying them a vaccum cleaner and a set of cookware for their birthday.... ;)

See, THIS is why it became your job! Heeheehee.....

[barley ben]

My parents gave me an odd look when I told the I wanted as/s pot for christmas. They did, an eight gallon with a nice thick bottom. Best gift I got.

[hopjack13]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
it's like buying them a vaccum cleaner and a set of cookware for their birthday....
hey that's what i got her for valentines day! i even had her name engraved on the vacuum...:eek:

[thewiz]

Originally posted by bigmf
... or a nice pint of the local pub's best cask conditioned ale. (I threw that last bit in just for you Richard):D

M.

To change the subject just slightly.... how would you carbonate a beer being aged in a wood barrel or cask?

Sorry for my obvious stupidity, but it seems the wood would be porous enough to allow CO2 or other pressure type gases to escape.... ferment in them? w/ or w/out airlock?

I ask since living somewhat near Napa, CA, cask aging might be a possibility for me some day, esp. with lagers or Marzens

[Summer]

Originally posted by steveh
Just as everything in life, you get what you give!

Yes, that's right!

My husband to be is not as enthustiastic about beer as I am, but he is open minded and learning well!! Sometimes he pours me a pint and brings it to me, when I'm watching telly. I don't do that to him, 'cause he's not in the mood for beer all the time, like me:D
But I do other things to make him happy!!

J.

[Richard English]

Quote "...To change the subject just slightly.... how would you carbonate a beer being aged in a wood barrel or cask? ..."

As I have treid to explain previously, there is only one way to do this and that is to have a secondary fermantation in the cask. The gas escape is controlled by a porous wooden spile and the beer remains carbonated only for as long as it continues to ferment.

It is less gassy than artificially carbonated beer and lasts for a shorter period. It is also very different in taste.

Those who admire British cask beers and want to be able to replicate them now know what they must do!

[steveh]

Originally posted by thewiz
Sorry for my obvious stupidity, but it seems the wood would be porous enough to allow CO2 or other pressure type gases to escape....

Following up Richard's info to add: cask ales (not familiar with cask lagers, it's a new concept and being discussed elsewhere on the board right now) are very low in carbonation and usually dispensed through gravity or a pneumatic hand pump (forcing just enough outside air into the cask to draw a 1/2 pint with each long pull - depending on the proximity of the pump to the cask, that is) - so no pressure gasses need be pumped in.

As Richard says, any carbonation bi-product of fermentation is released through the spile in the bung. As the ale is fragile to time, and must be consumed in good order, so any loss of carbonation (what little there is) through the wood itself is minimal over the life of that particular cask.

S.

[chazwicke]

I wonder if I could get some sort of grant to study British cask ales for a couple of years. :D

[fretlessman71]

Write to Matthew Lesko! I"m sure he can find some way for you to do it! :D

[chazwicke]

You know I actually read his first book "Getting Yours" back in the mid 80s. He was not such a baffoon back then. No funny suits!

[fretlessman71]

I guess when people stop listening to you, you can either try talking louder, or realize that nobody wants to hear you anymore and try something else.... ;)

[chazwicke]

True. Although he did have some decent suggestions in that book.

[fretlessman71]

On his getup these days - the one with all of the ? marks all over it - did anyone notice that several of them are BACKWARD? What's that about? Maybe it's just to make us ask questions... well, it's NOT GONNA WORK THIS TIME! ;)

[Brownbeard]

OK, so would any naturally carbonated beer be "real beer"? If I am bottle conditioning my beer, isn't that real beer? It will still probably have more carbonation than a cask, because the bottle does not allow for CO2 to escape. Or if you naturally carbonate kegged beer, isn't that considered "real beer"?

[fretlessman71]

My extract kit came with bottle caps that say, right there for God and everybody else to see, "REAL BEER". I'm convinced! ;)

[Richard English]

CAMRA regards bottle-conditioned beers as "real".

I have never heard of anyone engendering a secondary fermatation in a keg - I would think that it might be dangerous unless arrangements were made to vent of any excess pressure.

Charles Wells and a few others havd started to produce a large can that is supposed to replicate Real Ale, although I haven't yet tries it.

[Brownbeard]

I know a few people on this board and others prime their kegs naturally. I have considered doing the same myself. If you measure priming sugar or malt extract properly, it should not create any more pressure than in a bottle. When I say keg, I am talking about the soda kegs that we homebrewers use. I obtained my first one last night.

[Richard English]

I would imagine that beer that has been naturally conditioned in a keg would probably be more like bottle-conditioned beer than cask beer. Somewhat more gassy than cask beer but less so than normal keg beer.

I don't know why this treatment is not common; I have always assumed that there are problems. Certainly the pressure vessels sold for home brewing in the UK are not sealed - they have a pressure release valve. I have to say I would worry about pressurising such a large and relatively weak container (compared with a bottle) and would certainly not like to be around should one explode!

[wortchillergoal]

I have seen bottles explode. So don't forget my thread about safety. The glass from such an explosion can be driven into walls, celing, and human tissue if it is around.

[Brownbeard]

These containers are not sold for homebrewing use. They are made for soda pop. Coke and pepsi. So, they are designed to hold the pressure. They do have a pressure release valve on the top,but are rated to 30psi, which is far more than beer should be carbonated.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Richard English
CAMRA regards bottle-conditioned beers as "real".

I have never heard of anyone engendering a secondary fermatation in a keg - I would think that it might be dangerous unless arrangements were made to vent of any excess pressure.

Charles Wells and a few others havd started to produce a large can that is supposed to replicate Real Ale, although I haven't yet tries it.

I saw the Old Sarum in the large can. I guess it comes Brite and unfiltered. Please investigate Richard to see if these beers are any semblence of the "Real" thing. If they come close it may be a good chance to bring some home on my next trip. Which is May and exceedinly too long to have to wait for a cask beer!

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Richard English
CAMRA regards bottle-conditioned beers as "real".

I have never heard of anyone engendering a secondary fermatation in a keg - I would think that it might be dangerous unless arrangements were made to vent of any excess pressure.

Charles Wells and a few others havd started to produce a large can that is supposed to replicate Real Ale, although I haven't yet tries it.

Oxford Beer Bottled Database says:

A mini-cask is a fairly new innovation in beer selling in the UK, where the beer is sold in a small metal cask (typically 5 litres) as live beer (i.e. containing live yeast sediment). The resulting beer is therefore real ale, and the taste and condition of the beer is much closer to a pint of real ale served in a pub.

I need to try to get some of these send over here for tasting. Any connections?

[Oldskoolvwlover]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
The worst part for my wife re my hobby is the cases of bottles laying ALL OVER THE PLACE! I'm not the neatest person in the world, and all this stuff in a 2 bedroom apt. makes things a little cramped....

No wife but I am collecting all of my stuff in a studio apartment. People are gonna start walking in and thinking I have lost my damn mind.