Alcohol laws....

[Caffinehog]

OK, so I can go to the grocery store and buy a liter of cheap 40 proof vodka for $4. I can get a liter of 100 proof for $10.
So how come I can't get 10% alcohol (20 proof) beer at the store? It's twice the price of cheap vodka and it won't get you any drunker.
What is wrong with lawmakers?

[hops99]

Beer laws vary from state to state. Which state are you talking about?

[Caffinehog]

Ohio.

[Beaver]

Beer laws in Colorado that tick me off:

- you can only buy (non-3.2) beer from licensed liquor stores.

- no liquor stores open on Sunday

[Caffinehog]

They still make 3.2?

I may be wrong, but a guy from Delaware said that bars and breweries can sell any strength beer they want, but nothing over 10% can be sold at a store.

[Bryant]

Originally posted by Caffinehog
OK, so I can go to the grocery store and buy a liter of cheap 40 proof vodka for $4. I can get a liter of 100 proof for $10.
So how come I can't get 10% alcohol (20 proof) beer at the store? It's twice the price of cheap vodka and it won't get you any drunker.
What is wrong with lawmakers?


Vote Libertarian on every possible level of public office.

Bryant

[Herb Ninja]

Originally posted by Bryant
Vote Libertarian on every possible level of public office.

Bryant

You can say that again. :) Peace, HN-

[Caffinehog]

Originally posted by Bryant
Vote Libertarian on every possible level of public office.

Bryant

I don't know if I'm that crazy!
I just don't see a point to these laws. They're like saying that once you are 20mph over the speed limit, you're OK. I don't mind too much which way it goes, but make up your friggin minds!

[unkle bik]

The laws were changed here in Ohio in Nov. 2002 to allow the sales of beer with more than 7% ABW. (thank God)
Where in Ohio are you located?

[Richard English]

In England, for many years, there was a two-tier on-sales licence for pubs. They could either have a full licence and could sell all kinds of drinks or they could have a beer licence and could sell only beers and ciders.

The last beer-only pub in London changed to a full licence about six years ago as I recall and I am pleased to say that I did drink in it when it was a beer-only pub.

Now alcohol can either be sold or not sold - there is no distinction. Whenever you enter a pub, restaurant, shop or any other outlet that sells alcohol you will see a sign above the door that Mr, Miss or Mrs so-and-so is licenced to sell beers, wines and spirits for consumption on (and if applicable off) the premises.

The only real restriction is that of age. Nobody under the age of eighteen is allowed to buy or sell alcohol.

[Caffinehog]

Originally posted by unkle bik
The laws were changed here in Ohio in Nov. 2002 to allow the sales of beer with more than 7% ABW. (thank God)
Where in Ohio are you located?

I'm in Akron. And yeah, they just increased the limit, but there still is one. It's like 9% or 10%, but it's still there.
The best local brewpub celebrated by releasing three new beers that would have previously been illegal, having a big party with the brewer, and I think they had free appetizers.

[Jughead]

We have it pretty nice in Alberta.
Beer stores are privately owned (good selection). They are open weekends and late at night. There are no limits to what bars and stores can sell. Micros can make whatever they want. Brew pubs are allowed. Home brewers can make whatever and as much as they want (just cannot sell it).

My only complaint is that "you brews" or "brew on premises" are not allowed and I cannot figure out why. I guess Big Rock and Molson must keep enough pressure on the government to prevent them.

[chazwicke]

Lobby to change some of those silly laws. I lobbied along with others to change some laws in Virginia in the early 1990s and we were successful. We invited some of the state legislaters to a tasting at one of the Richmond brewpubs ( Richbrau) and many showed up. Virginia and the Washington DC region have very reasonable laws regarding beer. Our selection is also huge.

[brewmonkey]

Kansas has some strange laws but they are changing slowly. A lot of towns have declared home rule and are opting out of some of the states laws on alcohol. There used to be a law that you could not buy alcohol on Sunday's, but as the manufacturer we were exempt. In my town we were the only place that could sell package on Sunday's (Growler's and limited 6 packs) but then our town declared home rule and passed the Sunday sales ordnance. What was strange was that only liquor stores could sell on Sunday's, even though grocery stores and gas stations could sell all the other days they could not on Sunday. They have just passed another ordnance to change that.

We also have cereal malt beverage and strong malt beverage/ Cereal malt beverage is anything under 3.2 (that is all gas stations and grocers can sell) and strong beer is what you get in a liquor store.

If you own a liquor store and have a lisence for strong beer but not for cereal malt beverage, you cannot sell anything 3.2 and under (no NA stuff etc...)

Talk about some screwed up laws!

The state AG is challenging alot of the home rule cities, but looks like the state Supreme Court is bending towards the cities right now.

KS has some import/distro laws that do not affect pubs serving on premise. You cannot buy anything above 8% in the store or on draft at a tap house/saloon but if I make it I can serve it at my taps.

[Stodbrew]

California is generally pretty lax on alcohol laws. The only restrictions are you can't sell any alcohol between 2 am and 6 am. And, as a brewer, I can't make any deliveries on Sundays, which is ok, because I generally don't like to work on weekends anyway. There is no limit to the amount of alcohol percntage wise a brewery can produce.

[danno]

Minnesota apparently is a coupe of years behind Kansas. Currently, any properly licensed grocery or convenience store can sell 3.2% beer (or "malt beverages" such as Zima or what used to be called wine coolers). A "liquor" store can sell anything, except for some reason we have to drive to Iowa for grain alcohol. (for Brownbeard's sake, we'll leave the Iowa jokes out... :D)

Interestingly (to me anyways), the grocery store lobby is fighting for the right to sell wine in grocery stores. This may seem fairly harmless, until you consider the marketplace. 70+% of the liquor stores are single proprietor, family type businesses. Contrast that with 95% of grocery stores are corporate chains. The liquor market is such that what we call the mass market swill; Bud, Miller, Coors, etc. those margins are barely enough to pay the rent, due to competition. Hard liquor for the most part also has very thin margins, it pays the utilities. It's wine, with it's higher margins, that puts the local store owner's kids through college. So why would we want to take the wine margins out of the local, mom and pop economy, and give it to those cold ruthless corporations? Enough of the legislators must think that way, expanding wine sales has died for the past three years...

[fretlessman71]

Here in TN you can't sell beer less than 6% in a liquor store... it gets sold in a BEER store. Stuff like Arrogant Bastard can only be sold in a liquor store! Most big stores have TWO businesses right next to each other so they can cover everyone. Stupid!

[davesarman]

To add on to Danno's post, here in Minnesota, they just passed in 2003 legislation allowing bars to stay open until 2:00 am. Previous close time was 1:00 am. Also as part of that law, brewpubs can finally now sell growlers! No off sale on Sunday though, never understood that one. Unrelated, but also interesting, you can't sell cars on Sunday in MN. Never understood that one....

[brewmonkey]

Missouri is the same way on Sunday's with car sales, another FUBAR blue law.

[shaken]

We don't need no stinking beer laws....

I feel sorry for you people in "the lower 48"
I thought our beer and alcohol laws were strict, untill I started reading the laws you people have to work with.

We don't have an alcohol limit on our beers. some of the breweries are hitting around 12%

I just bought some "Imperial Blonde" ale, (about 8%), to sell in my restaurant. Also a "Cherry Winter Warmer" (about 9%)

We used to have to have a full serve liquor dispensing license in order to have a brew pub, but laws have changed this last year, as you only need a beer and wine license.

When I was brewing professionally, we always sold beer in growlers and in, no larger than, 5 gallon increments per person per day.

The STATE tax is rediculous on barrels produced.

I do know that the laws will eventually catch up with the rest of the world. but for now, we'll just have fun with it.......

Glad to live in "The Last Frontier"

[Caffinehog]

I don't think our laws are strict, just hypocritical.
Why can't we buy more than two kegs here? Why do we have to leave our name and address? Why will we soon be required to have labels stating the origin and destination of the keg and pay a hefty deposit? I can go to the grocery store and buy more beer than in a keg, for not much more, (maybe less with the cost of implementing the new laws,) and I don't have to leave anything. Why does Ohio make 1/3 of the world's beer illegal, but make things stronger and cheaper legal? Heck, I can buy wine at a regular store that is stronger than our strongest legal beer.

If the cutoff is 10% alcohol for beer, cut everything off at 10%. If it's 52.5%, cut everything off at 52.5%.
If you limit the number of kegs, limit the number of bottles, cans, and minikegs.

[brewmonkey]

In Kansas the law applies only to beer being put into distro. If I brew for one of my accounts I cannot go over the 8%, but if I brew it for in house I am not limited by anything and have put beers upwards of 14% on tap.

[Richard English]

What amazes me is that the United States of America, supposedly one country for over a century, has a greater disparity of liquor laws (and harsher liquor laws) than we have in Europe - which is not (and is unlikely ever to be) one country.

Since the advent of the EC, it is possible to transport alcohol between member countries with very little restriction and, so far as buying is concerned, in most European countries, although there is variation in age rules, if you can buy drink, then you can buy drink - whether it's one bottle of chemical fizz, a barrel of Real Ale, a case of wine or 10 bottles of 120% proof Navy Rum.

The more I learn about the restrictions that are imposed on Americans, by city, country, State and country, the more I am surprised. One of the supposed planks of the US consitution is individual freedom, or so I understood - but it does seem to me that this pledge is honoured more in letter than in spirit!

Am I right or have I misunderstood something here?

[brewmonkey]

A lot of the laws are carry over laws after the repeal of the Volstead act. I live in a state that had prohibition longer then any other (1870-1954) and still has many dry counties and cities.

A lot of the laws are being handled and amended for the current times, but for those of us living in the bible belt where the neo-prohibitionists are at work have a tough fight ahead.

It is so bad here that last year they introduced legislation to raise taxes on alcohol 545%. It did not pass as a whole, but they did get some other crappy legislation through.

Traveling with alcohol is not a problem in this country, it is flying with it that can cause propblems, and that is only post 9/11. What is really sad is I had no problem checking my firearms in my luggage last time I flew but they took my growlers of beer from me. How screwed up is that? Then when I got on the flight and asked for a beer, they gave me the whole beer, bottle and all. Duh!

[steveh]

Here in Illinois, and over the border into Wisconsin (and sometimes Iowa or Indiana), I've never had any trouble purchasing any sort of beer, wine, or liquor. The Dragon's Breath I just bought yesterday was 10% ABV. The only time I've ever run into any sort of wall was in Michigan before noon on a Sunday (a few years ago - they may have even changed the law by now), looked at my watch and it was 11:55, so I toughed out the wait! ;)

Richard, the separation of government between states and the country as a whole is a long, complex review of the history of democracy - having to do with keeping the checks and balances in place, and not allowing any one entity become the sole "authority." Between 50 states growing individually over 228 years, with individual and diverse societies, individual and diverse laws also grow.

It's difficult to explain why the country, as a whole, can't just define laws to govern everyone identically; much of the complexity having to do with each state wanting to retain their individuality, part of it having to do with the individual power each state wields within the country (footnote on the checks and balances there), and stubborn reluctance to sweeping change is a big part of the problem. Everyone in Virginia knows that they have the best state laws in the country, but everyone in Michigan knows that it's really their state with the best.

The complexity and diversity among our states is also a big part of the whole country's success as a nation - and makes for darn interesting house and senate meetings! We here can bitch and moan about our government open and freely, and often do, but there are very few who would trade up for anything else.

The other side of the coin is that if we aren't happy with a law or laws, with the right work, we can change or reverse them. I am a registered voter and take the time to know who and what I'm voting for, and do my best to elect those that follow my line of thinking on issues I care about. Those of you in states where you feel the liquor laws are unfair, have you called or written a senator? Do you vote regularly? Get involved.

S.

[brewmonkey]

That's exactly right! We kept a good portion of the laws from being passed and were able to get some repealed by making ourselves and voices known to the state reps and senators. I am sure had we not spoken, things would be different. In fact, the brewpub boon of the late 80's and early 90's is due in large part to the efforts of grassroots organizations getting together and pressing the lawmakers to listen!

Register to vote, and then make sure you do.

[Richard English]

Thank you. That is most enlightening and it explains why it takes so long to change things and why there's such a disparity of laws.

Tell me, though - why are some laws applied rapidly and universally to the entire Union (prohibition, for example) whereas others seem to be left in the hand of local legislators.

I can understand the need for local laws - we have them here - but they are restricted to local matters (speed limits on local roads, for example, can be set by the local authority having considered the local situation in a given area). But such things as drinking age or the strength of alcohol than may be sold, that seems to me to be a national matter. I can't see why the burgers of Illinois can buy as much booze as they want whereas those in Minnesota (to guess at two examples) can't be trusted so to do. And why is it illegal for anyone in Florida to brew, distribute and sell, whereas that's no problem in Maryland?

[brewmonkey]

Prohibition (Volstead Act) was an amendment to the US constitution and was ratified by at least 2/3 of the states before it went into effect. It was introduced in 1919 and ratified in 1920. It applied to the entire country due to the fact it was a constitutional amendment. Because it applied to alcohol and interstate commerce the federal government can enforce it. Once it was ratified, it was enforable in all states until it's repeal.

However, some states had already, under the banner of states rights, put prohibition into effect in the previous years (my state had it for 40 years prior to the Volstead act.

There are also issues of states rights, and what the federal government cannot regulate. States rights are by and large a big issue that prompts the seccesion of states and the start of the civil war/war of northern aggression.

Sometimes it is hard to define who has what jurisdiction and how to proceed, which is why at times it can be so frustrating.

Another issue of states rights is the legal drinking age. It is 21 in all US states, but for some time it was 18. Louisiana was the last to change IIRC. Some states had already changed to 21 based on studies showing fewer incidents then 18 YO. The federal government cannot tell a state what they must set their drinking age at, but what they can and did do was tell the states, you can keep your legal age at what you like but if you do not raise it to 21 we will cut off all federal aid for roads in your state. No brainer here, for the most part they all raise it and LA is the last hold out. From what I remember, they were making more from the taxes on liquor then they were getting in funds (Irony?)

[Richard English]

Fascinating!

And still US students (all under 21) get blotto on A-B swill - so the law is obviously wasted on them.

Incidentally, the European country with the most draconian drinking laws is Sweden. I believe it is also the country with the highest rate of alcoholism.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Richard English
Fascinating!

And still US students (all under 21) get blotto on A-B swill - so the law is obviously wasted on them.

Incidentally, the European country with the most draconian drinking laws is Sweden. I believe it is also the country with the highest rate of alcoholism.

Sadly it is so and they still account for the same amount of traffic accidents/fatalities, possibly more. Make it illegal and they will want to see what the fuss is about.

Even worse is the rate that "binge" drinking seems to be climbing. Mix with that the seeming decline of maturity in teens and you have a HUGE problem. But that is another debate for another thread.

[Tweek]

I hope you are not implying that the young people in the US are the only ones looking for a cheap buzz. Im pretty sure that is a universal phenomena.

[steveh]

It's not so much that anyone is looking for a cheap buzz, it's that alcohol is such a stigma in the U.S. as opposed to other countries. The youth in our country see alcohol as the forbidden fruit, and therefore it takes on a "gotta have it, gotta try it" appeal to them.

Mom, dad, and all those adults say I can't have it, but there are all of these stores, and bars, and restaurants everywhere that sell it - all of these TV commercials telling me I'll be the best if I drink it, all of these movies showing all the cool guys slamming it back -- it must be good!

In Europe alcohol is a simple part of life, and has been forever. Youth isn't sheltered from it and it isn't forbidden to them (in common sense manner). Adults don't gasp in horror or call the DCFS if they hear that their neighbor's 13 year old may have enjoyed a glass of wine with his parents at dinner.

Fred Eckhardt has another article in this month's All About Beer on this particular subject. While all of the legislators are crying out for more awareness of underage drinking, and enforcement of laws, Fred proposes to lower the drinking age in order to lessen the stigma of alcohol.

And no, I don't drink beer for a "cheap buzz" these days. I enjoy the variety of styles and flavors, the complexity of a malty ale - the subtlety of a crisp Pilsner, and the warm, social feeling of a great pub.

S.

[Richard English]

Quote "...I hope you are not implying that the young people in the US are the only ones looking for a cheap buzz. Im pretty sure that is a universal phenomena..."

Certainly not. But in most countries of the world the age restrictions, if they apply at all, are far less restrictive and so young people do not have to break the law.

There is much in the "forbidden fruit" phenomenon that Stevah mentions. In England the minimum age for buying drink is 18 but many start younger - as they are entitled to if they are drinking at home and not buying the drink themselves. No stigma is attached to this.

In Spain and France there are virtually no restrictions and it is very much the norm to see children who are no more than toddlers enjoying a small quanity of wine with the family in a restaurant.

Alcoholic drink is just another aspect of eating and drinking and children grow up regarding it in this way. Indeed, because their palates are not mature, many will choose to drink a sweet, non-alcoholic drink in preference to wine or beer. They do not go mad and drink themselves silly just as soon as they can get away with it, simply because they know they can have a drink whenever they wish.

Me? I drank my first glass of wine in France in 1947 when I was just 5. I didn't like it very much and spent most of that holiday drinking Cassis (blackcurrant liqueur). But the experience put alcohol into its correct perspective and it has been a welcome friend to me ever since.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
they are entitled to if they are drinking at home and not buying the drink themselves. No stigma is attached to this.

In Spain and France there are virtually no restrictions and it is very much the norm to see children who are no more than toddlers enjoying a small quantity of wine with the family in a restaurant.

I'll never forget seeing a matronly Grossmutter walk into the biergarten of Munich's Hofbrauhaus with her 2 grandchildren, ages around 5 or 6, order a liter of Munchener Dunkel, then dole out small glasses of the brew from the mass for each of the children.

I remember enjoying the witness of true European culture in all its quaintness, and realizing what a spectacle would have been made of the scene here in the 'States. :/

S.

[hops99]

I'm in Ohio. Some neighboring states have silly laws such as:

Indiana: No beer sales on Sunday, period. Beer can't be sold cold in grocery stores, but can be sold warm.

Michigan: No neon beer signs allowed in any bar or pub (although I believe that's just been repealed). No beer sales before noon on Sunday.

Pennsylvania: The worst. Beer is primarily sold in 24 packs (unless you buy it from a bar that has a license), and is sold in "beer" stores. No beer sales on Sunday, and until recently, no beer sales with a credit card. Stupid.

So, back to Ohio. Yes, they did raise the % up a little over a year ago, and you can buy beer just about anywhere (even in drive-thru convenience stores) but my biggest problem with Ohio is the state-controlled pricing. Unlike Indiana and Michigan (not sure about PA), Ohio imposes a state minimum (20% profit margin over cost), so beer can be much more expensive here in the Buckeye State. Irritating.

[brewmonkey]

Oklahoma had some strange laws on my last pass through. Only liquor stores were selling alcohol. It had to be warm and that is all the store could sell. If it was distilled spirits, they could not sell mixers unless they were alcohol based, they could not even sell soda. They also were not allowed to carry tobacco products or even lottery tickets.

Texas got us with that "Social Club" thing where you have to be a member to drink. Kansas was that way until about 10 or so years ago, but know it is liquor by the drink everywhere.

[unkle bik]

Originally posted by hops99
Pennsylvania: The worst. Beer is primarily sold in 24 packs (unless you buy it from a bar that has a license), and is sold in "beer" stores. No beer sales on Sunday, and until recently, no beer sales with a credit card. Stupid.


Ditto for me on that remark.
I remember taking a tour of the Rolling Rock brewery several years ago with my wife. They have a really nice 20 min. presentation & informative guided tour. The tour ends up in the gift shop. When they asked if they're were any questions, I had one:
"Where is the tasting room?"
"I am sorry, sir. Pennslyvania law prohibits breweries from giving out or selling on the premises."
Not that I am big Rolling Rock fan, but they had some different flavours I hadn't seen before & wanted to sample.
Talk about Draconian.
Wake up PA & tell you elected officials your alcohol laws sukk.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Prohibition (Volstead Act) was an amendment to the US constitution and was ratified by at least 2/3 of the states before it went into effect. It was introduced in 1919 and ratified in 1920. It applied to the entire country due to the fact it was a constitutional amendment. Because it applied to alcohol and interstate commerce the federal government can enforce it. Once it was ratified, it was enforable in all states until it's repeal.

However, some states had already, under the banner of states rights, put prohibition into effect in the previous years (my state had it for 40 years prior to the Volstead act.

There are also issues of states rights, and what the federal government cannot regulate. States rights are by and large a big issue that prompts the seccesion of states and the start of the civil war/war of northern aggression.

Sometimes it is hard to define who has what jurisdiction and how to proceed, which is why at times it can be so frustrating.

Another issue of states rights is the legal drinking age. It is 21 in all US states, but for some time it was 18. Louisiana was the last to change IIRC. Some states had already changed to 21 based on studies showing fewer incidents then 18 YO. The federal government cannot tell a state what they must set their drinking age at, but what they can and did do was tell the states, you can keep your legal age at what you like but if you do not raise it to 21 we will cut off all federal aid for roads in your state. No brainer here, for the most part they all raise it and LA is the last hold out. From what I remember, they were making more from the taxes on liquor then they were getting in funds (Irony?)


Brewmonkey got it exactly right here. While localities have some say there is lots of federal pressure which sometimes amounts to extortion. (ie withholding federal funds). I have said it before but get involved politically in your areas. I have lobbied on legislation regarding laws that would affect my business as well as laws regarding beer and breweries in Virginia and have been sucessfull. It pays to be politically aware active and vigilant.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by steveh
It's not so much that anyone is looking for a cheap buzz, it's that alcohol is such a stigma in the U.S. as opposed to other countries. The youth in our country see alcohol as the forbidden fruit, and therefore it takes on a "gotta have it, gotta try it" appeal to them.

Mom, dad, and all those adults say I can't have it, but there are all of these stores, and bars, and restaurants everywhere that sell it - all of these TV commercials telling me I'll be the best if I drink it, all of these movies showing all the cool guys slamming it back -- it must be good!

In Europe alcohol is a simple part of life, and has been forever. Youth isn't sheltered from it and it isn't forbidden to them (in common sense manner). Adults don't gasp in horror or call the DCFS if they hear that their neighbor's 13 year old may have enjoyed a glass of wine with his parents at dinner.

Fred Eckhardt has another article in this month's All About Beer on this particular subject. While all of the legislators are crying out for more awareness of underage drinking, and enforcement of laws, Fred proposes to lower the drinking age in order to lessen the stigma of alcohol.

And no, I don't drink beer for a "cheap buzz" these days. I enjoy the variety of styles and flavors, the complexity of a malty ale - the subtlety of a crisp Pilsner, and the warm, social feeling of a great pub.

S.


AGREED!!!!

[chazwicke]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by steveh
[B]
Everyone in Virginia knows that they have the best state laws in the country, but everyone in Michigan knows that it's really their state with the best.


No, Virginia's are better! lol
:D

[PCaravan]

I can't think of any state being as bad as OK. There was a great article in a local paper here a few months ago. I don't remember the details very clearly but I'll tell what I remember.

OK HAS prohibition written into its constitution. It's been there since statehood though it has changed somewhat over time. Somewhere around the mid 50s they changed the definition of non-alcoholic beverage to 3.2% ABW allowing the sale of low point beer in grocery store and gas stations (that means that technically the Bud that is sold in our local grocery store is not really alcoholic right... but you still have to be 21... that one is strange). At some point they also developed some kind of special rule for store that sold ONLY alcohol. These stores could sell any alcohol of any strength they wanted but they could only sell products containing alcohol (this means no cork screws for your wine, no mixers for your drinks, and no bottle opener for your beer) and nothing could be sold cold. Also, distributer weren't allowed to franchise to these "liquor store". I don't really understand how this distributing franchise thing works but appearently BudMillerCoors depends on it to the point they will not sell their regular strength beers to these liquor stores, though you can still get your normal import/premium beers such as Guinness/Shiner/Hienie and the like... warm.

Now that I've got you confused on OK's prohibitive stance on alcohol, there's more. Brewpubs were not legal until the early ninties. Now legal, their still limited to 3.2% ABW as I understand. Not that I haven't had a good brew at some of them, it is rediculous that they have that limitation.

There's also a law conserning homebrewing. It's been a while since I read the statute on homebrewing in OK but it had two subparts, one for wine and one for beer. The one for wine allowed someone to get a wine making permit to make wine for sale and distribution for off premises consumtion for the price of over $1200 and had a part that someone could get a wine making permit for making wine at home for personal use for free. The subpart for making beer mentions getting a beer making permit at the same price but has no mention of getting a beer making permit for personal use for free. In other words, technically if I want to make beer at home, the only way that it is legal is if I go and get an expensive permit! I don't think this is inforced though. There are a few active and successful brew shops in OK that sell beer ingredients.

[PCaravan]

Here is a post the article I referenced.

http://www.okgazette.com/builder/BuilderFP.asp?DocDate=11/20/2003&Prefix=FP&PathIn=E:\inetpub\wwwroot\inex139\builder\DocIn&RelPathIn=builder/DocIn&MenuDate=1/28/2004

Unfortunately they cut it way short on the internet version, especially since it's two months old now you wouldn't be able to get a printed version that had the whole story. Oh well.:(

[SAustinTX]

Originally posted by steveh
It's not so much that anyone is looking for a cheap buzz, it's that alcohol is such a stigma in the U.S. as opposed to other countries. The youth in our country see alcohol as the forbidden fruit, and therefore it takes on a "gotta have it, gotta try it" appeal to them.

Mom, dad, and all those adults say I can't have it, but there are all of these stores, and bars, and restaurants everywhere that sell it - all of these TV commercials telling me I'll be the best if I drink it, all of these movies showing all the cool guys slamming it back -- it must be good!

S.

I agree wholeheartedly and have found that, actually, the youth today are more apt to indulge in copious amounts of marijuana because it's easier to get than the alcohol. Also, some may think this BS, but I've actually known parents to resort to buying weed off their kids' friends because they have the better shit! Sad...

[SAustinTX]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Oklahoma had some strange laws on my last pass through. Only liquor stores were selling alcohol. It had to be warm and that is all the store could sell. If it was distilled spirits, they could not sell mixers unless they were alcohol based, they could not even sell soda. They also were not allowed to carry tobacco products or even lottery tickets.

Texas got us with that "Social Club" thing where you have to be a member to drink. Kansas was that way until about 10 or so years ago, but know it is liquor by the drink everywhere.

Actually, that whole "Social Club" thing is done on a county-by-county basis. When I lived in Amarillo (which is split by two different counties) you may have had to sign up for a "membership" (which was free and simply involved filling out a few bits of personal info on a slip of paper) depending on what county you were drinking in.

I'm assuming many of the alcohol laws can vary in Texas on a county-by-county basis. You can usually expect a few things to be universal: liquor stores closed on Sundays and by 9PM on other days of the week, no alcohol sold in stores after midnight (1AM on Saturdays), most bars close at 2AM (some rinky dink beer joints only have a 12AM license but this isn't a law but a choice). However, one of the stranger laws I've come across is down the road from Amarillo in Lubbock, TX. Lubbock is more or less a "dry" town, in that you can't go into a grocery or convenience store and pick up a six pack of beer. I also don't believe they have liquor stores since there are a number of them that pop up when you leave the city limits. However, there is a certain area of downtown which is crowded with bars and clubs, and you don't need any kind of membership or anything of the sort to go in and drink. Which makes no sense to me: why is it OK to go out to the bars and get hammered but you can't buy a 12-pack of beer and take it back to the house?

At any rate, generally speaking the Panhandle and large parts of West Texas are more or less an extension of the Bible Belt mentality which tends to pervade the American Midwest. On the other hand, Austin is one of the best towns for drinking I've ever been in. I miss the feeling of walking into a bar that didn't even serve Budweiser or Miller products. Great stuff.

[PCaravan]

Yeah, I found Texas to be confusing too. I used to work in Terrell, TX and lived about 20 minutes east of there. The county I lived in was dry (no alcohol of any type anywhere) but the county I worked in was wet and sold everything. If I didn't remember to bring anything home and my wife or I wanted something it was a 40 minute round trip to pick up a sixer or a bottle of wine. Later, we moved to about 30 minutes to the other side of Terrell which put us in Dallas. We didn't realize until we moved in that Dallas is divided up into wet and dry districts. We were in the dry district and although the distance to get to a store in the wet district wasn't that far, because of Dallas traffic was still a 40 minutes round trip. Also related to the previous post, in these dry Dallas districts you could go to a restaurant and order any kind of alcohol to drink there (but you had to have this membership card that cost 1 dollar the first time).

As it turns out, every county around the county that Terrell was in was dry. Just about every other store in Terrell was a liquor store. Just think of the taxes these other counties and towns are missing out on.

[unkle bik]

Today being election day in Ohio makes me think of an old alcohol law that was on the books here.
3.2% ABW beer was the only intoxicating potion you could purchase on election day.

What were they thinking? You can't get that drunk before you cast a ballot for these fools?
Like that would make a difference. Glad they repealed that law.

[PCaravan]

Still that way in OK.

On election day (or any day that public polls are open) the liquore stores are closed here until 7:00 PM and of course they have to close at 9:00 PM. 7 is when the polls close. You can still get the 3.2 beer at the grocery store or convenient store but the only stores that have anything stronger than that are the liquore stores which aren't open when the polls are open. I thought it was just an Okie thing... well maybe it is now.