Yeast Question?

[vance71975]

Ok, i cant seem to help myself, the recipes i come up with all seem to be really really big beers, 9% abv up to 16% abv and my problem is this, i know most Ale yeasts have a problem getting up to the higher end of the beers i make. So my question is this, is it ever acceptable to use a champagne yeast to ferment say a 15.75% ABV barley-wine? If not, Why not? If so What should i expect? I was going to do Extract plus Mini Mash, and i was thinking if i do the mini mash at high temp say 170-180 and add maltodextrine that i can keep the ale from being too thin, would that work?

[texasliam]

wine yeast makes your beer taste like wine, sort of.

[vance71975]

wine yeast makes your beer taste like wine, sort of.
Well Champagne yeast is suppose to be fairly neutral and can easily ferment to 18% Abv, and from what i read barley-wine is suppose to have a somewhat vinous quality.I would never use it in a Stout but im wondering about a Long aged Barley-wine?

[BrewDog]

I was going to do Extract plus Mini Mash, and i was thinking if i do the mini mash at high temp say 170-180 and add maltodextrine that i can keep the ale from being too thin, would that work?

170F-180F will denature all the enzymes in your mini-mash (an egg denatures when heated too) and you won't get any conversion. The 2 primary enzymes (alpha and beta amylase) work in two primary temperature bands with an overlap "slot" where they are both active but reduced. That "slot" is around 150F-153F.

Beta amylase works from around 130F up to around 150F. It operates on the ends of the starch chains, kind of like Pac-Man from the video game. By cleaving off the ends, it only pulls off 2 rings at a time, releasing them as glucose or dextrose (1 ring or 2 ring respectively) into the wort. This leaves you with a very fermentable wort, as the glucose and dextrose are very simple sugars and therefore very fermentable.

Alpha amylase works from around 152F up to around 158F, but it will "chop" randomly in the chain, like someone swinging an axe. This means that the chunks will be of various sizes, many of them longer than what the yeast can ferment. This is why you get a less fermentable wort at the higher temp ranges. Note that these bands are where they are MOST active. They will work above and below those temperatures, but they will be at a reduced capacity.

Normally, we tend to shoot for around 152F so that we are in the "slot", and will get a good mix of both beta and alpha activity, producing a medium bodied wort. Adjusting the temp up or down will favor more alpha or beta activity, and produce a more or less fermentable wort accordingly.

When using champagne yeast to dry out a huge beer, you willl geta better flavor profile by starting with an appropriate beer yeast, waiting for it to poop out, repitiching, waiting for THAT to poop out, then finally pitching the champagne yeast if the repitchng hasn't brought the gravity down to where you want it.

Note that this also means that you have adequately oxygenated the wort, and pitched an appropriately sized starter. http://www.mrmalty.com/ has a great yeast pitching calculator for figuring these things out.

HTH-

[vance71975]

170F-180F will denature all the enzymes in your mini-mash (an egg denatures when heated too) and you won't get any conversion. The 2 primary enzymes (alpha and beta amylase) work in two primary temperature bands with an overlap "slot" where they are both active but reduced. That "slot" is around 150F-153F.

Beta amylase works from around 130F up to around 150F. It operates on the ends of the starch chains, kind of like Pac-Man from the video game. By cleaving off the ends, it only pulls off 2 rings at a time, releasing them as glucose or dextrose (1 ring or 2 ring respectively) into the wort. This leaves you with a very fermentable wort, as the glucose and dextrose are very simple sugars and therefore very fermentable.

Alpha amylase works from around 152F up to around 158F, but it will "chop" randomly in the chain, like someone swinging an axe. This means that the chunks will be of various sizes, many of them longer than what the yeast can ferment. This is why you get a less fermentable wort at the higher temp ranges. Note that these bands are where they are MOST active. They will work above and below those temperatures, but they will be at a reduced capacity.

Normally, we tend to shoot for around 152F so that we are in the "slot", and will get a good mix of both beta and alpha activity, producing a medium bodied wort. Adjusting the temp up or down will favor more alpha or beta activity, and produce a more or less fermentable wort accordingly.

When using champagne yeast to dry out a huge beer, you willl geta better flavor profile by starting with an appropriate beer yeast, waiting for it to poop out, repitiching, waiting for THAT to poop out, then finally pitching the champagne yeast if the repitchng hasn't brought the gravity down to where you want it.

Note that this also means that you have adequately oxygenated the wort, and pitched an appropriately sized starter. http://www.mrmalty.com/ has a great yeast pitching calculator for figuring these things out.

HTH-

Sweet thanks Bdog! Question tho, Say i pitch Nottingham, wait for it to poop out, then pitch more Nottingham, isn't the first pitch going to have created enough alcohol to kill the second pitch straight away? Which is why i was considering champagne yeast in the first place, it can ferment to 18% abv without dieing off.The Est OG is 1.153.I will also at some point down the road be getting a 5g oak barrel for bulk ageing my imperial stouts and barley wines, i am happy about this!

[BrewDog]

No, not right away. The second one will work for a while before pooping out.
Measure with your hydrometer to keep track.

One other thing, though. I'd suggest you go with WLP007 pitched from an active starter for the second pitch, so you have an actively fermenting pitch at high krausen going when you pitch it.

HTH-

[vance71975]

No, not right away. The second one will work for a while before pooping out.
Measure with your hydrometer to keep track.

One other thing, though. I'd suggest you go with WLP007 pitched from an active starter for the second pitch, so you have an actively fermenting pitch at high krausen going when you pitch it.

HTH-

Ok, cool i just thought it would kill the yeast outright. Is there any reason tho, aside from flavor, to not use champagne yeast from go as your main yeast? Or Eau De Vie, which says on the package for Barley wine,grappa and one other that i cant remember.Would there be anything wrong with using Eau De Vie, it doesn't die off till about 21% ABV?

[BrewDog]

Why not split your batch and pitch 1/2 with just champagne yeast, the other 1/2 start with beer yeast and then follow up with champagne yeast and compare them (or just do 2 side by side batches).

[beerking]

Brew Dog is right. 170-180*F is too high for conversion.
I have brewed a beer using a mash temp of 158*F, and 33% crystal malts. The wort was VERY thick with lots of mouthfeel. Too much so, except for the fact I brewed this as a Flanders Red, and the beasties in the Roselaer blend love those complex sugars. It finished quite dry (and sour).

[vance71975]

Why not split your batch and pitch 1/2 with just champagne yeast, the other 1/2 start with beer yeast and then follow up with champagne yeast and compare them (or just do 2 side by side batches).

I would but quite simply cost.i don't have the cash to do side by side batches and i don't have any 2.5g carboys anymore, they got left in wash.

[vance71975]

Brew Dog is right. 170-180*F is too high for conversion.
I have brewed a beer using a mash temp of 158*F, and 33% crystal malts. The wort was VERY thick with lots of mouthfeel. Too much so, except for the fact I brewed this as a Flanders Red, and the beasties in the Roselaer blend love those complex sugars. It finished quite dry (and sour).

I know that it wouldn't convert, that is the point, most of my sugars will be coming from malt extract,that's why i was considering mashing hot, that way if i use champagne yeast and the ale becomes to thin and bodiless the high mash makes up that body,and mouth feel.The Recipes in question is below.


Oat Kicked Barley Wine

Type: Extract
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 5.72 gal
Boil Time: 60 min

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
12.00 lb Pilsner Liquid Extract (3.5 SRM) Extract 37.12 %
3.33 lb Wheat Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 10.30 %
4.00 lb Oats, Malted (1.0 SRM) Grain 12.37 %
3.00 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 9.28 %
2.00 lb Smoked Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 6.19 %
2.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 6.19 %
1.00 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 3.09 %
3.00 oz Brewer's Gold [8.00 %] (60 min) Hops 46.9 IBU
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (15 min) Hops 4.4 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (5 min) Hops 1.9 IBU
4.00 lb Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 12.37 % (flame Out)

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.157 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.035 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 16.19 %
Bitterness: 53.2 IBU
Est Color: 14.6 SRM

Or


Bomb Ass Barleywine

Type: Extract
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 5.72 gal
Boil Time: 60 min


Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
6.00 lb Amber Liquid Extract (12.5 SRM) Extract 25.00 %
6.00 lb Pilsner Liquid Extract (3.5 SRM) Extract 25.00 %
6.00 lb Wheat Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 25.00 %
1.00 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 4.17 %
1.00 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 4.17 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 4.17 %
2.00 oz Admiral [14.75 %] (60 min) Hops 56.3 IBU
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 8.6 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (20 min) Hops 5.8 IBU
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (5 min) Hops 1.7 IBU
1.00 oz Burton Water Salts (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
3.00 lb Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 12.50 %
5.00 gal Distilled Water Water




Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.153 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.034 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 15.75 %
Bitterness: 72.4 IBU
Est Color: 21.0 SRM

Or

Oaty English Barley

Type: Extract
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 5.72 gal
Boil Time: 60 min


Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
6.00 lb Dark Liquid Extract (17.5 SRM) Extract 23.08 %
6.00 lb Pilsner Liquid Extract (3.5 SRM) Extract 23.08 %
3.00 lb Oats, Malted (1.0 SRM) Grain 11.54 %
3.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 11.54 %
3.00 lb White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 11.54 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 3.85 %
1.00 oz Admiral [14.75 %] (60 min) Hops 37.1 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (15 min) Hops 6.2 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (5 min) Hops 2.5 IBU
1.00 oz Burton Water Salts (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
4.00 lb Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 15.38 %
6.00 gal Distilled Water Water
5 Pkgs Nottingham Yeast (Lallemand #-) Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.125 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.029 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 12.71 %
Bitterness: 45.8 IBU
Est Color: 16.1


I was considering using this yeast:

YEAST STRAIN: 4347 | Eau de Vie™

A very good choice for alcohol tolerance and stuck fermentation's. Produces a very clean, dry profile, low ester formation and other volatile aromatics.

Origin: France
Flocculation: Low
Attenuation: NA
Temperature Range: 65-80°F, 18-27°C
Alcohol Tolerance: 21% ABV

[BrewDog]

But you will be simply adding starch to the wort. That results in beer instability, cloudiness, and overall you'll get nasty off flavors because the beer won't age.

HTH-

[vance71975]

But you will be simply adding starch to the wort. That results in beer instability, cloudiness, and overall you'll get nasty off flavors because the beer won't age.

HTH-

Got ya dont do it! lol thanks bdog!