A note on Carbonation

[Shaun Goeckner]

There is something to be said I think for how the carbonation in your beer affects the flavor profile. A comment for one judge on my Peruvian Porter, which is well carbonated

"...allow malt flavors to dance upon the palate and exhibit extra complexity."

Now, I stumbled on this the good old fashioned way, by trial and error. The Porter I brew is a Brown, and lighter than other styles and I have never been a fan of astringent flavors assiciated with heavily roasted malts, but I enjoy the malty flavors. So we toyed around with the grist until we hit on a combination that didn't use much Chocolate malt yet exhibited the chocolaty-coffee profile. We bottled 5 gallons and kegged the other 5, and when the bottled 5 tasted so much better because we accidentaly over carbonated it, we started doing that for all of our beers that have a flavor component in the background we want to bring to the fore ground.

My latest batch is a light ale with Bravo & Ahtnum, and a bit of extra carbonation makes for an intersting deviation/seperation between malt and not-malt flavors.

Food for thought....

[B_rad1969]

Thanks! The nose can taste too....

[HogieWan]

Thanks! The nose can taste too....

I've read that an apple and an onion (both raw) "taste" the same, but the aromas change the flavor perception

[markaberrant]

I've heard it is apple and potato that taste the same...

I find higher carbonation works well in drier/lighter/thinner styles. High carbonation in roastier styles brings out an astringency and harshness, and it just completely messes up anything malty with decent body.

[OntheLoose]

What is considered high carbonation in the roastier styles? I have been trying to remove some of the astringency and harshness from my porters and stouts but when I do, I end up disappointed that the beer doesn't have enough (for lack of a better word) oomph. I carbonate at about 13 psi. Should I try lowering this pressure just to see if that does the trick?

[HogieWan]

What is considered high carbonation in the roastier styles? I have been trying to remove some of the astringency and harshness from my porters and stouts but when I do, I end up disappointed that the beer doesn't have enough (for lack of a better word) oomph. I carbonate at about 13 psi. Should I try lowering this pressure just to see if that does the trick?

If you want to try lower carbonation, get a bigger glass and pour really hard.

[Beer Martin]

If you want to try lower carbonation, get a bigger glass and pour really hard.

Try your beer shaken, not stirred.
________
XV700 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Yamaha_XV700)

[markaberrant]

What is considered high carbonation in the roastier styles? I have been trying to remove some of the astringency and harshness from my porters and stouts but when I do, I end up disappointed that the beer doesn't have enough (for lack of a better word) oomph. I carbonate at about 13 psi. Should I try lowering this pressure just to see if that does the trick?

Do you know the PH of your mash/ do you account for the Residual Alkalinity of your mash?

Astringency and harshness can come from water or oversparging/sparging too hot; carbonation will just bring this out moreso. If you say it is only in your darker beers, I'm guessing it is your water.

[Vienna Lager]

Shaun, why don't you post your recipe?

[OntheLoose]

I haven't taken ph readings of the water or the mash. I don't account for residual alkalinity. Oversparging? I didn't know there was a such thing. Please explain. I typically sparge at 170-175.

I took out the black patent and roasted barley and the astringency was gone. But so was the good stuff that I like. I added back the roasted barley but left out the black patent to see what happens.

[beerking]

Oversparging is running too much water through your mash, and then getting tannins into the runnings. Basically, you need to stop the runnings before that happens. Absolute limit is not to continue sparging once the runnings get to 1.010, although I usually stop somewhere between 1.015 and 1.020.
More important than gravity is the pH of the final runnings. NEVER let the runnings you collect get above a pH of 6.0!
In addition, you are running your sparge too hot (not much). I would not let the sparge water get above 172F, and 170F is probably safer.

pH is the most important of the 3 variables (gravity, temp, pH), but you should endeavor to keep all 3 within limits.

(OBTW, some may consider having any of those 3 variables too high as "oversparging," although, IMHO it is a misuse of the term unless the variable is too high because you have run so much water through the grains. If your first runnings are at 180F, you are too hot, and will probably pull some tannins, but I would not call that "oversparging." Some would.)

[corkybstewart]

I heat my sparge water to about 185F. By the time it is sprinkled onto the grain it's probably around 170F, but regardless I monitor the temp of the mash and it stays around 170F for the entire time I'm sparging. Since I do a 170F mashout I doubt my sparge temp is high enough to extract tannins.

[beerking]

I heat my sparge water to about 185F. By the time it is sprinkled onto the grain it's probably around 170F, but regardless I monitor the temp of the mash and it stays around 170F for the entire time I'm sparging. Since I do a 170F mashout I doubt my sparge temp is high enough to extract tannins.

Agreed. And if that is what OnTheLoose meant by "I typically sparge at 170-175" he is probably OK as well.

Bottom line is that the pH is the most important number to watch.

[Beer Martin]

So, say you monitor your pH and after you collect about 50% of your wort it's getting out of whack. Do you do anything to reverse the trend, or just stop sparging and better check your salt additions next time?
________
Honda Rc161 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_RC161)

[beerking]

Not much can be done once you are sparging. Odds are low that a mash in the pH range of 5.2-5.5 (at mash temp) would get to 6.0 during sparge until after you have gotten most of the sugars out anyway.
For those with very hard water, where it requires large salt additions to get the mash pH in range (or even acid additions), you may well need to add acid (food grade lactic, or some others) to the sparge water to keep it from going to high.
Also remember, that salts you are adding to your water for flavor purposes (mostly sulfates and chlorides) need to be added based on the TOTAL volume going into the fermenter. This means you need to add salts for the amount of sparge water, IN ADDITION to those added in the strike water. Most brewers add these salts to the kettle, not the actual sparge water.

[MootsLnbKing]

Not to highjack the thread or anything, but my last brew was over carbonated and the beer foamed up the glass and had a gas smell like co2 gas? And the first sip tastes alittle mybe astringent? Idon't know but it made me burp alot. But when u let it sit it got better it kind of opened up u might say. Why is that.

[OntheLoose]

What do you use to check ph? Just litmus paper that turns colors or something else? I haven't checked the gravity of my sparge but it still has lots of dark color to it, so I would be surprised if it were lower than about 1.025 I will be sure to check the mash gravity and sparge gravity next batch just to see what is going on.

[beerking]

Not to highjack the thread or anything, but my last brew was over carbonated and the beer foamed up the glass and had a gas smell like co2 gas? And the first sip tastes alittle mybe astringent? Idon't know but it made me burp alot. But when u let it sit it got better it kind of opened up u might say. Why is that.

Don't know what smell you are talking about. CO2 is odorless.

As far as foaming in the glass, are you serving from keg or bottles? If bottles, then it is likely overcarbonated. Could be too much priming sugar, or it could also be wild yeast contamination.
If it is keg, the foaming is most likely caused by your draft system not being properly balanced. Could be too high a pressure, could be too low.

[MootsLnbKing]

I bottle.But i wonder if that will settle out over time?Wild yeast?I scrubbed them first with hot water then soaked them in pbw overnight and starsan for 5 mins.

[beerking]

Carbonation will not "settle out." Once it is in there, the only way to reduce it is venting pressure off.
The bottles are not the only potential source of contamination. Could have been in your hoses, your bottling bucket, or it may have already been in the batch but didn't really start to grow until later.
How much sugar did you add (and to what sized batch)? How did you add it?

[BrewDog]

Not a lot to add here, except that dissolved CO2 also adds Carbonic Acid, which lends a tartness not present in plain water. Over carbonation, especially in a lighter beer, will exhibit this flavor in addition to the prickly sensations on the tongue, palate, and in the back of the throat.

A good experiment is to buy some plain carbonated soda water, and do a side by side where some has been left overnight to decarbonate. The taste differences is quite noticeable.

[MootsLnbKing]

I added ~1 pound at the last 5 min of boil and it was a 5 gallon batch. I tried to make sure everthing was sanitized with the starsan, and pbw.